Remove ads

Paths of Civilization

Reader mode
[X] [Exp] Integrate the Stallion Tribes
[X] [Diplo] Need a bigger boat (Main More Boats)

Citino said:
I should never have brought up the slavery issue...

Ignore the slavery part. My point was meant to be against the idea that we have an obligation to act 'good' as a civ. My previous example was the razing of Xohyr, which people have again and again decried as an 'evil' action, even though it was militarily and politically the best possible decision our nomad king could make. The 'good' option would have been to set terms of surrender, however that would have taken at least several days, more if we actually wanted a good deal, during which the risk to the Ymaryn homeland would become greater and greater each day.

Phy chose to raze the city instead. This removed the Xoh as a legitimate threat, turning a 1v2 fight into a 1v1, which is a massive military advantage to us. Politically, he also terrified the TS enough that they backed out and left the HK out to hang.

His choice, while not the 'good' one, was the correct one as a civ.

However, imagine if that had actually been put to a vote. Committing what could be considered genocide in order to save our people? There are many that would refuse just on that basis alone. Which means we would likely have been fighting a three front war in the lowlands, or at best a one front war with two other possible fronts that could open up at any time.

A civ cannot fully base its decisions on the good, which was the point I was getting at, not whether we should end slavery if we take over the Trelli. I'll be more careful in the future to pick a topic people won't latch onto I guess...
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

That was very well written. From now on, I will vote

[X] Citino
 
[] [Exp] Integrate the Stallion Tribes
[] [Exp] Found Mercenary Company
These two are both really tempting but I am going to have to go with
[X] [Exp] Integrate the Stallion Tribes

all the others I can't choose between
 
Expansion
[] [Exp] Found Trelli Trade Post, West
-3 Diplo, -2 Wealth, 2 Econ Transfer, -2 Martial
Pros:
-Control of Tin trade grants political leverage to force the Trelli to play nice.
-Trelli moved one step further away from Tin dominance(and thus the ability to afford more mercenaries).
-Local base to contest Trelli pirates
Cons:
-May provoke military reaction from the Trelli
Mixed:
-Defensive war with Red Banner would be kind of funny because the Trelli have never seen us fight before. Boy would they be surprised. And free Stability.


[] [Exp] Found Trelli Trade Post, East
-3 Diplo, -2 Wealth, 2 Econ Transfer, -2 Martial
Pros:
-Increased trade power for our metal output
-More defensible via Hatvalley reinforcements
-Local base to contest Trelli pirates
Cons:
-Makes the Trelli even more prosperous
-May provoke military reaction from the Trelli
Mixed:
-Defensive war with Red Banner would be kind of funny because the Trelli have never seen us fight before. Boy would they be surprised. And free Stability.

[] [Exp] Found Far Northern Trade Post
-3 Diplo, -2 Wealth, 2 Econ Transfer, -2 Martial
Pros:
-No conflict there.
-New resources available.
Cons:
-Benefits all long term
-Does not prevent the Trelli from reaving across the not-Black Sea freely.

[] [Exp] Integrate the Stallion Tribes
-6 Diplo, +8 Martial, +? Econ, +? Econ Slots
Pros:
-End to Stallion woes
-Gain direct control of Dragon Temple
Cons:
-Further stresses administration burden
-Red Martial
Mixed:
-Econ gained

[] [Exp] Found Mercenary Company
-5 Martial
Pros:
-Gain fast reaction force
-Lowers Martial in preparation for Stallion integration
Cons:
-Does not prevent the Trelli from reaving across the not-Black Sea freely.

[] [Exp] Do nothing here
Well it costs nothing...

External Diplomacy
[] [Diplo] Open fresh trade (Two Sec Trade Missions to neighbours)
-2 Wealth, +2-4 Diplomacy
Pros:
-Reestablishes non-Trelli trade ties
-Diplomacy begins to overflow.

[] [Diplo] Demonstrate wealth (Main Salt Gift)
-5 Wealth, +1-? Diplomacy, +1-? Art, +1-? Prestige, +? Mysticism
Pros:
-Likely overflows Diplomacy, Art
-Show the mercenaries alternative paymasters
Cons:
-Makes us extra tempting to raid

[] [Diplo] Need a bigger boat (Main More Boats)
-2 Econ, -1 Wealth, +1 Art; +1 Econ end of turn, +1 Econ, +1 Econ Expansion and Diplo next turn
Pros:
-Boat uptech. Our Outriggers only need a Speed boost to be competitive, and nobody else has Rams as a technology yet(you could mount one to your ship and...plow into them). We need a second Boat advance to fully compete however
-Econ Expansions will help with the baby boom consumption.

[] [Diplo] Tie everything further together (Main New Trails)
-1 Econ, +1 Centralization, +1 Diplo
Pros:
-Cheap
-Overflows Diplomacy
-Helps with admin

[] [Diplo] Stay home, garden (Main Expand Econ)
+4 Econ, -4 Econ slots
Pros:
-Overflows Econ
Cons:
-Overcrowding next turn

Internal Focus
[] [Int] Build palace (Extra megaproject action)
-1 Econ, -1 Art
Pros:
-High chance of finishing palace next turn.

[] [Int] Garden (Main Expand Econ)
+4 Econ, -4 Econ slots
Pros:
-Overflows Econ
Cons:
-Overcrowding next turn

[] [Int] Plant forests (Main Expand Forests)
-2 Econ, -1 Econ Expansion, grows forest, +2 Econ next turn
Pros:
-Generates Econ Expansion room.
-Generates additional forests to support mines/grand docks
-Possible forestry trade goods

[] [Int] Water wheels are awesome (Main Build Mills)
-3 Wealth, -1 Art, +3 Econ
Pros:
-Generates Econ slots
-Improved pump technology
-Progress towards Paper
-Progress towards other engines(i.e. Ballista, Onagers to completely win the naval war game)
Cons:
-Consumes Art needed for Palace

[] [Int] Party! (Main Improve Festival)
-1 Econ, -2 Wealth, +1 Stability, +2 Art
Pros:
-Generates enough Art to finish Palace no matter what
-1 Stability short of Golden Age


Okay, vote is:
[X] [Exp] Found Trelli Trade Post, West
[X] [Diplo] Need a bigger boat (Main More Boats)
[X] [Int] Party! (Main Improve Festival)

Diplomacy 13 -> 10 (+1)
Economy 11 -> 6 (+1)
Econ Expansion 6 -> 11 (+1)
Martial 10 -> 8
Wealth 13 -> 10
Art 8 -> 11
Stability 1 -> 2

Main motivating factors:
-The Trelli are aware of their Tin dependency. Probability is high that they will claim the Trade Post site soon to ensure supply, and then use it as a pirate base.
-We're only really 2-3 more boat advances from taking them at sea. Yes, they have the better boats....we have docks along the entire notBlack Sea, and they can't win boarding fights without numerical superiority due to Iron Marines.
-Northern Trade Post won't generate any military advantage fast enough to counter the Trelli. Yes. Pitch helps with boats, but Pitch is at least 2-3 more Study Forests after the Northern Trade Post, by which time the Trelli situation would have changed

Finally:
-The Trelli can't afford to attack us immediately. They cannot have founded more than two Companies at present even if they wiped out their Martial score as a citystate, and both of them are occupied in the Saffron Isles. The Trelli need atnother 2-3 turns to build up the necessary Martial score to have a go at us.
 
[X] [Exp] Found Far Northern Trade Post
[X] [Diplo] Need a bigger boat (Main More Boats)
[X] [Int] Party! (Main Improve Festival)

I believe this is the best thing to do in order to gain the upper hand once the pirating starts, as well as getting us closer to a Golden Age.
Although, just to be sure: this won't tank us out of the baby boom, right?
 
veekie said:
-The Trelli can't afford to attack us immediately. They cannot have founded more than two Companies at present even if they wiped out their Martial score as a citystate, and both of them are occupied in the Saffron Isles. The Trelli need atnother 2-3 turns to build up the necessary Martial score to have a go at us.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Most of your argument is sensible, but I think you are making as assumption with this part. The update mentioned they were hiring other nearby tribes to fight for them, much as we hired the HH for ourselves. In which case, it doesn't matter that their martial wouldn't be able to support more than 2, as they could just hire the warriors of their neighbors to fill out their ranks instead.

Less loyalty that way, but you can pull a lot more numbers.

Well, as long as the coin keeps flowing that is.
 
Last edited:
[X] [Exp] Integrate the Stallion Tribes
[X] [Diplo] Tie everything further together (Main New Trails)
[X] [Int] Party! (Main Improve Festival)
 
[X] [Exp] Integrate the Stallion Tribes
[X] [Diplo] Tie everything further together (Main New Trails)
[X] [Int] Party! (Main Improve Festival)
 
[X] [Exp] Found Trelli Trade Post, West
[X] [Diplo] Need a bigger boat (Main More Boats)
[X] [Int] Party! (Main Improve Festival)

And veekie raises a good point that they may expand. Which would suuahahahahhaauuuuck in many different ways.
 
Sivantic said:
Why? Were you people not planning to go all out on the Palace next turn? That would put us at 9/8-10. It does not need an action right now.

What we need on the Trelli front is better boats.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
While I agree, boats will be very helpful, I'm not convinced they're the best plan we have to choose from. In this situation, I think that matching strength on strength is riskier than we need to deal with. Focusing on the south shore of the Ymryan Sea, and building roads that help on our long-running internal issues appears to be be safer, while not ignoring the problem.

That being said, I wouldn't be horribly upset by going west side and boats winning, I just think that the Trelli are at best 4th or 5th on our priority list, and we don't need to go all in on them.

Umi-san said:
It'll happen anyways and forestalls the passive interdiction benefits of TTP-West.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Err, what will happen anyway? The People deciding to build a road from Hatvalley along the coast to the other river inlet, if we choose not to settle there?

But yes, I do admit, the other post does less to pressure the Trelli. I'm not convinced that full court press on the Trelli is our best plan right now, however.
pbluekan said:
For fucks sake. I've said this a dozen times. Those aren't the same nomads and they aren't the kind that have been raiding us for a thousand years.

That northern trade post is as far from the nomads as hatvalley is from them. There are no nomads up there, not the kind we are used to.

Edit: Fucking phone spelling.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
To be honest, I don't see any natural geographical boundaries between the endless steppes of Nomadlandia and the northern trading post zone. Yes, it is a bit of a trip, but they can and have raided that far northwest in Russia in our history.
 
[X] [Exp] Found Far Northern Trade Post

Amber, furs, trees. Hell yeah. If we get a source on proper huge trees, we can build the great docks. Megaprojects for days epochs.
 
veekie said:
-Defensive war with Red Banner would be kind of funny because the Trelli have never seen us fight before. Boy would they be surprised. And free Stability.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...

So will we, we haven't got a clue about how Trelli fights.

Are they intending to do blockades or messing with our link between trade post(s) and colony? Do they have different weapons for war? (Alchemy mix, ship ram, or other special troops?)

Our irons banner are good, but we do not have means to deliver them; nor do we have the time to pursue trade wars.
 
veekie said:
[] [Int] Plant forests (Main Expand Forests)
-2 Econ, -1 Econ Expansion, grows forest, +2 Econ next turn
Pros:
-Generates Econ Expansion room.
-Generates additional forests to support mines/grand docks
-Possible forestry trade goods

[] [Int] Water wheels are awesome (Main Build Mills)
-3 Wealth, -1 Art, +3 Econ
Pros:
-Generates Econ slots
-Improved pump technology
-Progress towards Paper
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
AN said that Expand Forests, now that it's been merged with Study Forests, can also give us paper, so you might want to add that to the Pros if you're making that a Pro for water wheels.


[X] [Int] Party! (Main Improve Festival)

Golden age! Golden age! Golden Age!
 
[X] [Exp] Found Trelli Trade Post, West
[X] [Diplo] Need a bigger boat (Main More Boats)
[X] [Int] Build palace (Extra megaproject action)
 
Last edited:
Them trelli gitz do'it now letz get our 'ardest boyz and all sneaky like send 'em roight west and den we send in the boyz and hit 'em 'ard when thy ar not lokking nd stoomp em god
 
Last edited:
[X] [Exp] Found Trelli Trade Post, West
[X] [Diplo] Need a bigger boat (Main More Boats)
[X] [Int] Party! (Main Improve Festival)

I wonder if we can hire thier mercenaries, indoctrinate them with our own warriors and launch a culture attack.
 
Last edited:
pbluekan said:
Extremely long single planks of wood. This makes shipbuilding easy.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
Pine is nearly useless for shipbuilding. It has too poor weather resistance to be even used as outdoor furniture. It's only used as oil.
Candesce said:
And? Picking a fight on the basis that we'll be able to win before they bring their troops back, when we can't take the first swing, does not strike me as a good idea.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
No? Its taking the opportunity to prevent them from making a fight of it. Once we have the Tin route under control they can't fight us even if they wanted to. By the time they can turn around to face the trade post we'd already have fortified the trade post up, with the Red Banner in station.

Because Mercenaries cost money and they can't afford to lose the Tin trade from us. Right now they are too busy to contest the trade post, which will be very different in a turn or two.

Further reminder of what naval warfare means:
-Their ship moves up near your ship.
--They fire arrows at you until you are intimidated enough to surrender.
---They realize Ymaryn bows outrange theirs. Curse and find a better target until they can outnumber Ymaryn ships.
--Or they ram you and board you to fight.
---They realize going into a close quarter fight with iron equipped warriors is kind of dumb. They'd need to outnumber Ymaryn ships for this to be practical.

We're not losing the naval war yet, but we will if we don't take steps to control the notBlack Sea now, while they hadn't caught on that someone might object to piracy.

Further note, once they attack Ymaryn ships, we'd have casus belli for Pirate Suppression.
 
Well, if we do the northern trade post I vote we immediately do the south post as well next turn so we can fend off the Trelli a bit better while we try to study pine forests enough to a) figure out how to grow more pines in our more northern provinces, and b) figure out pitch.
 
[X] [Exp] Found Trelli Trade Post, West
[X] [Diplo] Open fresh trade (Two Sec Trade Missions to neighbours)
[X] [Int] Build palace (Extra megaproject action)
 
Reader mode
You must login or register to reply here.
Remove ads
Back
Top