Paths of Civilization

ThrawnCA · Jul 9, 2017

@Academia Nut Will popular-but-not-accepted options potentially affect the layout of the building? Eg gardens look like they're not quite getting in, but still getting lots of votes; would that potentially mean that space is set aside for them but not yet developed, reducing later remodeling?

McLuvin · Jul 9, 2017

ETA50M said:
Valleyhome derives its power from its political power beyond that they have nothing they can use to challenge the trade might of Redshore

Aside from the fact Valleyhome sits on a trade nexus in the centre of Ymaryn territory, trade to and from the Lowlands to Redshore passes through them, it's why they became a city first, hell even Scared Forest has become a city before Redshore!
If Redshore was so superior it would've become a city already, the fact is, it's better, but not so much so it eclipses Valleyhome, Valleyhome actually makes more money due to its established Guilds, established currency and central location.

Redshore is better, but it's not super superior, and is not worth screwing ourselves over for, we'd have to build aqueducts, deal with overcrowding for the first time, deal with Valleyhome resistance and distance from the Lowlands just to show a few arguments.

Redshore is good for trade and connectivity, but it costs too much in the short term to be safe or smart to take.

notgreat · Jul 9, 2017

The Storehouse would be very useful in the case of disaster or a siege, but Valleyhome is deep in our territory and is thus very unlikely to be militarily threatened to the point of that being useful and Sacred Forest Renewal has made us almost immune to natural disasters already.
It does help with our admin situation a little, but finishing the Palace sooner and with less investment is also going to help our admin situation. We have plenty of storehouses spread throughout the city already, this just gives the king a single giant one.

redzonejoe said:
Don't need 2x library in my minority opinion.

We don't need it but it costs us a Main and 2 stats, and by the time we finish the Census it'll have paid back 4-6 stats. After that, it's all profit. It's very useful. It also helps our admin situation by giving our clerks plenty of space to work in.

Citino said:
At work, so can't really comment much other than why don't people want this?!?!?! It's literally a manufacturing center/research center!

We want it, but we want everything. It furthers the militarization of the People and ties the king in with the Artisan guilds, which degrades its value below what we'd really like.

Abby Normal · Jul 9, 2017

tryrar said:
Don't forget Great Hall Expansion, it also has roughly half the votes.

That's mostly for diplomatic and prestigious, not administrative, stuff, though, isn't it?

Raichu1972 · Jul 9, 2017

Abby Normal said:
I mean, thats nice, but 4-6 mysticism isn't actually that urgent right now, and we're doing ok on art as well, especially since unless i'm failing at reading comprehension, we should have 9 instead of our current 7 thanks to the blackbird and carrion eater expansion our provinces did

But...the problem about "juggling improvements to the palace with everything else we have to do" applies to building stuff now as well, only it means we trade a slightly reduced cost for *having* to do them before we can do the census and the law, instead of us having the choice between what's most important? Also, i dont think anyone is voting for not having at least one shrine and library in the palace, and iirc double library and a single storehouse is winning, which gives pretty good administrative boost anyway...

That's why I'm pretty happy with the vote so far, since It's not just the bare essentials.

I want for the palace to at least have a library, hopefully have a temple, and hopefully have a storeroom.

Umi-san · Jul 9, 2017

Abby Normal said:
I mean, thats nice, but 4-6 mysticism isn't actually that urgent right now, and we're doing ok on art as well, especially since unless i'm failing at reading comprehension, we should have 9 instead of our current 7 thanks to the blackbird and carrion eater expansion our provinces did

I consider a 1 time cost of a main action + 2 stats to be worth saving 5-7 x 2 mysticism. Especially since mysticism overflows into art which overflows into diplo which allows us to integrate various subordinates post palace.

I do not recall, however, whether the library provides a per action or per turn refund cap. If the latter, we would indeed only get ~4-6 mysticism if we rush The Census. It still comes out as equal.

E: Won't The Law cost art and mysticism? idr

tryrar · Jul 9, 2017

Abby Normal said:
That's mostly for diplomatic and prestigious, not administrative, stuff, though, isn't it?

*Shrug* it probably has better admin as well, just not nearly as much as it helps diplo and prestige.

Abby Normal · Jul 9, 2017

Umi-san said:
I consider a 1 time cost of a main action + 2 stats to be worth saving 5-7 x 2 mysticism. Especially since mysticism overflows into art which overflows into diplo which allows us to integrate various subordinates post palace.

I do not recall, however, whether the library provides a per action or per turn refund cap. If the latter, we would indeed only get ~4-6 mysticism if we rush The Census. It still comes out as equal.

It's per action, same as the true city one. I'm not sure where you get "5-7 x2" from, though?

ThrawnCA · Jul 9, 2017

Abby Normal said:
I mean, thats nice, but 4-6 mysticism isn't actually that urgent right now, and we're doing ok on art as well,

But if we have excess resources, that increases our ability to rush projects, or even kick them. Note that excess Art also allows Proclaim Glory to handle the kick.

And expanding the library annex is surely the best single thing we could do to help admin woes.

Candesce · Jul 9, 2017

Umi-san said:
I do not recall, however, whether the library provides a per action or per turn refund cap.

Per action. We've gotten +2 out of it before.

Forgothrax · Jul 9, 2017

Umi-san said:
We're not at risk of fragmenting as long as we otherwise tread water.
To prevent secession: support the north.
To end the war: fight it.
To deal with the tax crisis: create wealth.

All of which suck up our actions and prevent us from solving any crisis. If all we are doing so desperately treading water we will eventually sink, so we need to resolve each crisis as quickly as possible before they pile up and overwhelm us.

Andres · Jul 9, 2017

[X][Annex] Shrine
[X][Annex] Library
[X][Annex] Library x2

We're currently under a tax crisis that needs three megaprojects to solve and suffering greatly from administrative drain besides. We do not have time for anything but a substantive minimum. Getting other stuff comes entirely secondary to solving this as quickly and cleanly as possible.

tryrar · Jul 9, 2017

Abby Normal said:
It's per action, same as the true city one. I'm not sure where you get "5-7 x2" from, though?

I'm not sure either, since it's 4-6 actions for the Census at 2 mysticism per action. So it would be 4-6 x2 for cost, which with two Library refunds that is per action is free.

Crazy7s1 · Jul 9, 2017

[X] [Loc] Valleyhome

[X] Great Hall Expansion
[X] Great Hall Expansion x2
[X] Shrine
[X] Library
[X] Library x2
[X] Gardens
[X] Arsenal
[X] Storehouse

Therealtahu · Jul 9, 2017

tryrar said:
Actually, it's farther from the lowlands, which is just about our LARGEST periphery state, and the one that needs the most oversight since they're not from our culture. And while we don't want to EXPAND them, we still want to KEEP them due to said con from DS, so unless we get a chance to release them peacefully we're stuck with them. And while it's not that big of a deal to build up the infrastructure, it's something we can't afford to do within the next 3-4 turns, and AN has specifically said that Redshore would become a True City anyways, through overcrowding, if we made it a capital and failed to quickly install an aquaduct.

McLuvin said:
1. Still forgetting the Lowlands mate, and also ignoring the fact that one upside vs the fact we need speed and the cost of aqueducts far outweighs that
2. We are already in the Lowlands mate, no arguments about it now and we are having some major issues with them already, as you said Divine Stewards is a factor here and we cannot afford to lose the Lowlands without a cascade collapse occurring, choosing the capitol furthest away from a major area in need of administration and an area of likely military action is pretty counterproductive, even more so than losing out on the ease of access for everyone else via Redshore
3. Actually it is, because Aquaducts and other issues choosing Redshore would cause will delay that infrastructure phase quite a lot, thus helping increase the divide more than not choosing Redshore. Overall choosing Redshore just makes this point shoot you in the foot mate

1. The distances from Valleyhome to Redshore are much shorter than the distances from the Lowlands to Valleyhome. It doesn't add that much overhead to the travel distance they already have, especially for the longer distance minors.
2. We're already in the Lowlands but we don't need to make it worse. Vassals have only a chance of causing a stability loss compared to our Periphery states which have a guaranteed stability loss. This is not a cascade collapse. Our periphery states are more of a threat to us than the Lowland Minors (Northwest). Please stop mixing up periphery states and vassals. They're not the same.
3. Not quite a lot. If we're going to be in an infrastructure phase, we're going to be using Infrastructure policy which means that it takes a turn or two if you count generating resources. It's 8 progress for aqueducts we're going to have to build anyways, since Redshore is most likely going to be our naval trade hub and end up as a True City regardless of our choice.

Building in Valleyhome is going to uproot a ton of people and cements it as even more of a political pit. The other provinces have a hard enough time getting political power and we don't need to make it even worse.

I also don't see why people are latching onto the extreme long term aspect when it's also better for us in the short term. The periphery states and provinces are much closer to Redshore than Valleyhome and they're the ones we administer and distribute to centrally. We only marginalize the Lowland Minors who we barely even manage. Remember, we're not the center of government for the Lowland Minors. They're a decentralized scattering of villages.

tryrar · Jul 9, 2017

Crazy7s1 said:
[X] [Loc] Valleyhome

[X] Great Hall Expansion
[X] Great Hall Expansion x2
[X] Shrine
[X] Library
[X] Library x2
[X] Gardens
[X] Arsenal
[X] Storehouse

Just because we can go for the maximum now doesn't mean we should. Think you can cut that down in half?

DragonParadox · Jul 9, 2017

VoidZero said:
You mean Spirit Talker cave and Xoh wonder wall.

Of both the former was recovered by Thunder Speakers.

Yes caves tend to be more resilient than the works of man

ETA50M said:
My plan is about doing whats best to keep our connectivity up and we can finish the aqeducts with various secondaries spread out before overcrowding becomes an issue.

Which means nothing if we blow up in the meantime because it took us too long to make the palace and we spent too many actions on aqueducts when we should have been doing the law.

Umi-san · Jul 9, 2017

Abby Normal said:
It's per action, same as the true city one. I'm not sure where you get "5-7 x2" from, though?

Census takes 5-7 actions, costs 2 mysticism per action and nothing else.
E: 4-6 apparently. Still 8-12 mysticism.

R.E. Grand Hall:
General benefits of the basic:

Academia Nut said:
Then there would be a large chamber set aside where the king could meet with everyone in peace and comfort and they could do the work of the kingdom properly. There would of course be the display of artwork and civic relics to remind the People and visitors of the power and importance of the place.

Helps prestige and admin.

General benefits of the expansion:

Academia Nut said:
First, the Great Hall could be extended, made larger to accommodate more visitors, and to also appear more impressive to outsiders. Some proposals suggested making it big enough to serve as something of a community focus point, where a significant fraction of the populace could attend during major festivals, although that was probably overkill.

Helps prestige and festivals. E: I genuinely want the grand hall to be a place where the populace can attend during major festivals. Availability to the public is a key part of our governance.

Arguably increased size might further increase admin, but it wasn't explicitly noted.

Note, however, that expanding it later will narratively be a major pain, which might have mechanical effects. Though, as we know, narrative alone has a significant mechanical impact.

Umi-san · Jul 9, 2017

Forgothrax said:
All of which suck up our actions and prevent us from solving any crisis. If all we are doing so desperately treading water we will eventually sink, so we need to resolve each crisis as quickly as possible before they pile up and overwhelm us.

North isn't a problem in the short future.
We would have ended one of the fronts in the war this turn if it weren't for the heir.
We have ~3 really bad turns of wealth hits before the tax problem comes down hard. Less if we rent out our mercs at some point.

ThrawnCA · Jul 9, 2017

Crazy7s1 said:
[X] [Loc] Valleyhome

[X] Great Hall Expansion
[X] Great Hall Expansion x2
[X] Shrine
[X] Library
[X] Library x2
[X] Gardens
[X] Arsenal
[X] Storehouse

So, that will be... 12-14 main actions, noticeably longer than the forest renewal.

If we double main it every turn, that's 6-7 turns, during which time we will take approximately 12 Wealth damage. And we wouldn't have even started the Census yet. And we don't even know what The Law will then cost.

No way we can afford that.

tryrar · Jul 9, 2017

Therealtahu said:
1. The distances from Valleyhome to Redshore are much shorter than the distances from the Lowlands to Valleyhome. It doesn't add that much overhead to the travel distance they already have, especially for the longer distance minors.
2. We're already in the Lowlands but we don't need to make it worse. Vassals have only a chance of causing a stability loss compared to our Periphery states which have a guaranteed stability loss. This is not a cascade collapse. Our periphery states are more of a threat to us than the Lowland Minors (Northwest). Please stop mixing up periphery states and vassals. They're not the same.
3. Not quite a lot. If we're going to be in an infrastructure phase, we're going to be using Infrastructure policy which means that it takes a turn or two if you count generating resources. It's 8 progress for aqueducts we're going to have to build anyways, since Redshore is most likely going to be our naval trade hub and end up as a True City regardless of our choice.

Building in Valleyhome is going to uproot a ton of people and cements it as even more of a political pit. The other provinces have a hard enough time getting political power and we don't need to make it even worse.

I also don't see why people are latching onto the extreme long term aspect when it's also better for us in the short term. The periphery states and provinces are much closer to Redshore than Valleyhome and they're the ones we administer and distribute to centrally. We only marginalize the Lowland Minors who we barely even manage. Remember, we're not the center of government for the Lowland Minors. They're a decentralized scattering of villages.

Because an already said Redshore is only better in the extreme long term. He never said it was better in the short term. Also, that travel distance between redshore and valleyhome works both ways. Also also, we're NOT going to be in an infrastructer phase for quite a while due to need at least 1-2 more megaprojects to solve the tax issue. Also x3, losing a vassal is still gonna impact LL(even if it doesn't hit stability), which we do not want. Just because you don't want to be in the lowlands doesn't mean you can ignore the facts here.

VoidZero · Jul 9, 2017

Citino said:
At work, so can't really comment much other than why don't people want this?!?!?! It's literally a manufacturing center/research center!

Cause i don't want to play with fire hazard in government building where records are kept.

And that i rather have the artisan association do their own thing outside of meddling king or officials.

Crazy7s1 · Jul 9, 2017

tryrar said:
Just because we can go for the maximum now doesn't mean we should. Think you can cut that down in half?

I'm sorry but no.

Umi-san · Jul 9, 2017

VoidZero said:
Cause i don't want to play with fire hazard in government building where records are kept.

And that i rather have the artisan association do their own thing outside of meddling king or officials.

they'll be separate buildings and leaving the artisan association to themselves is, well

also, @tryrar the funny is also all so

ETA50M · Jul 9, 2017

McLuvin said:
Aside from the fact Valleyhome sits on a trade nexus in the centre of Ymaryn territory, trade to and from the Lowlands to Redshore passes through them, it's why they became a city first, hell even Scared Forest has become a city before Redshore!
If Redshore was so superior it would've become a city already, the fact is, it's better, but not so much so it eclipses Valleyhome, Valleyhome actually makes more money due to its established Guilds, established currency and central location.

Redshore is better, but it's not super superior, and is not worth screwing ourselves over for, we'd have to build aqueducts, deal with overcrowding for the first time, deal with Valleyhome resistance and distance from the Lowlands just to show a few arguments.

Redshore is good for trade and connectivity, but it costs too much in the short term to be safe or smart to take.

Redshore sits on a trade nexus that connects to everywhere by boat travel. Redshore has the connectivity to make taking the empty Hathyn territory much easier and it comes without any resistance. Sacres Forest became a city because w ebuilt aqeducts there and turned it into a pilgrame site so whats your argument there? The fact that Redshore is in the debate against two true cities we had for a long time speaks to its power. Screw keeping the lowlands happy when our peripheries are more important and are pushing for Redshore. Building an aqeducts isn't that big a problem and I'm banking it'll end up a mid turn decision as well.

Paths of Civilization

Carbon-based biped

High Clerk of the Ymaryn

Procrastinating.

High Clerk of the Ymaryn

Carbon-based biped

Not Going Gently

Excellent

Procrastinating.

Procrastinating.

Carbon-based biped

Passing Flan 布丁魔王

Excellent

Procrastinating.