[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Valleyhome
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] No
[X] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)

More stability conservation (less refugees, no crackdown on lowland priests). Also, damnit, I had meant deployment from Valleyhome... fixed that mistake now. We must culturally re-assimilate the RB.
 
Only really relevant decision to our priests and rulers, with some caveats such as traders, RB and those who talk to those mentioned.

Compared to that, refugee taking impacts all populace. I mean, yes, it could impact our spiritual (mind you, spiritual and not social, which probably means things about the classes of society most impacted - especially in theological debating, which can be somewhat abstracted from everyday life) values, so there is some potential for more widespread impact, but would have way less spread than refugees.

My point still seems to stand just as strongly unless you have a reason to believe theological debate has a lot of impact on tradition of generosity in some random farming community in, say, Redshore.
Which is bullshit, because to HAVE such a debate at all means publically making a show of the priests talking about the values, which means in turn that all the people SEE that yes, this is what you do to strange foreign views, you ACCEPT that while they are strange you can still find value in them(also such a debate is necessarily public or it'd do nothing about the cultural spread of such ideas). In the cities, this means a lot of people talking about our values and how we treat foreign values.

Contrast with the refugee impact, which is seen as negative, because the refugees are making life hard on everyone in the areas they are taken in. We walk the talk, but what people see is suffering resulting from this practice.

And of course, consider the narrative effects of starting up a festival at the same time.
If we're lucky we might actually have some kind of theological debate enshrined as part of a festival.
OK, it's definitely not as devastatingly effective as seizing tin mines, but we're probably already fighting all those polities, so all those little drains add up.

If the shift in Econ (and resulting Martial) gives us just a 10% better chance of winning against each opponent, that adds up to a 34% chance of winning at least one battle we would otherwise lose.

(ETA The -3 strike really is tempting for the ???, but per WoAN the TS and TH and Swamp People are doing OK ATM, so it wouldn't bring them to their knees. So too risky :|)
You have to divide the hit across all affected parties. And losses below 2 get turned into rounding errors.
So we're inflicting 4 Econ of damage to 4 different states. Which causes 1 Econ damage to each.

Noticeable? Nope.
 
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...AN said that it'd make the debate more difficult however, as you add even MORE foreign voices. That's not how you come out on top of such debates here, and higher Stability does help, in that people generally think that the Ymaryn way of life is perfectly fine, so why change it for uncertain foreign values?

You are missing, like, half the AN's reply for some reason :
@Academia Nut , would accepting more refugees give more bragging rights to our priests due to our gods clearly favouring us because look at our stable weather?

It can, but it also brings in new voices to debate.

Yes, it brings in new voices; it also gives our priests more ammo for debating.
Unless you have some other WoG which says that the effect on debate is net negative, I assume it is basically neutral.

Which is bullshit, because to HAVE such a debate at all means publically making a show of the priests talking about the values, which means in turn that all the people SEE that yes, this is what you do to strange foreign views, you ACCEPT that while they are strange you can still find value in them(also such a debate is necessarily public or it'd do nothing about the cultural spread of such ideas). In the cities, this means a lot of people talking about our values and foreign values.

Well, yes, as I've said, it will influence mostly those who are doing debating and those talking to the former + those talking to RB and the RB themselves. I doubt that 90% of our population doing farming at their hamlets are going to suddenly all go to Valleyhome to witness debates, while refugee taking affects more or less everyone, not only those who witness debating and their acquitances.
You are refuting basically a strawman of my point as far as I can see.
 
The Living Throne. A Tree that has been shaped into a seat and had gems pressed into it

If it's pine, can it grow it's own amber?
But otherwise, shaping trees into throne sounds like a great idea for the Palace.

And of course the same shape-grown comfortable chairs for everyone who is there because what kind of barbarian would leave people who've possibly walked hundreds of miles to get an audience standing?
 
Wouldn't that take a very long time like at least two to three turns long?

Yep. But with policy more or less locked to offensive until we deal with assholes to the east of and assholes to the south and to the north (nomads now with horse riding) it is unlikely we'll do it in less than that.
It is 5-7 actions long, and we can take only up to 2 actions per turn unless we switch Policy. And that's not going into resources probably getting a little tight during the process with no actions beyond a lonely Secondary to gain more.
 
Yep. But with policy more or less locked to offensive until we deal with assholes to the east of and assholes to the south and to the north (nomads now with horse riding) it is unlikely we'll do it in less than that.
It is 5-7 actions long, and we can take only up to 2 actions per turn unless we switch Policy. And that's not going into resources probably getting a little tight during the process with no actions beyond a lonely Secondary to gain more.
Our marches should be able to repel the nomad's attack and the HK should be surrendering this turn so all that is left is the swamp folk who we should be able to broker a peace to if e manage to convert the lowland minors to our way of thinking and if not we can send the red banners to defend them while we straighten things up at our core.
 
Our marches should be able to repel the nomad's attack and the HK should be surrendering this turn so all that is left is the swamp folk who we should be able to broker a peace to if e manage to convert the lowland minors to our way of thinking and if not we can send the red banners to defend them while we straighten things up at our core.

TH and Swampers are driven by some seriously hard-to-mitigate casus belli, so I suspect negotiating will prove very hard.
TS are a bit of a wildcard and, given Iron, will backstab us if we prove too weak.
Highlands should indeed surrender this turn.
Honsetly, if not for Taxes being shit, I'd say we should throw salt at Thunder Horse as proto-weregild to kind of say sorry for all their friends and families in torched city; as is, we are too low on wealth to do so, I'm afraid, and I doubt they Revenge cause for war will go away without some sort of appeasement.

So we've got, best case, two lowland enemies which are unlikely to peace out with us, two neighbours who want sum Iron and are willing to backstab us when we show weakness, and freaking nomads with horse riding.
With all that in mind, I think Offensive policy will be here to stay for the next three-four turns at least.
 
TH and Swampers are driven by some seriously hard-to-mitigate casus belli, so I suspect negotiating will prove very hard.
TS are a bit of a wildcard and, given Iron, will backstab us if we prove too weak.
Highlands should indeed surrender this turn.
Honsetly, if not for Taxes being shit, I'd say we should throw salt at Thunder Horse as proto-weregild to kind of say sorry for all their friends and families in torched city; as is, we are too low on wealth to do so, I'm afraid, and I doubt they Revenge cause for war will go away without some sort of appeasement.

So we've got, best case, two lowland enemies which are unlikely to peace out with us, two neighbours who want sum Iron and are willing to backstab us when we show weakness, and freaking nomads with horse riding.
With all that in mind, I think Offensive policy will be here to stay for the next three-four turns at least.
Fair enough forgot about the TH we really should take the second refugee action if only to make sure our people have enough econ to recruit more warriors.
Adhoc vote count started by Reader of all on Jul 8, 2017 at 8:59 AM, finished with 70326 posts and 103 votes.
 
Yes, it brings in new voices; it also gives our priests more ammo for debating.
Unless you have some other WoG which says that the effect on debate is net negative, I assume it is basically neutral.
New voices, but what do those voices talk about?
Reminder that these people work off direct belief, where ours work off evidence.

It helps the argument because it showcases our prestige. It hurts the argument because all these new people will further reinforce that our practices are masochistic in the amount of disruption they cause, and they'd further back up the opposition on "Look, all these people share my views."

As such, the bigger the refugee infusion, the worse it hurts our point. Small infusion goes "look at these guys coming in from the war and famine". Large infusion goes "look at all the chaos from our practices"
Well, yes, as I've said, it will influence mostly those who are doing debating and those talking to the former + those talking to RB and the RB themselves. I doubt that 90% of our population doing farming at their hamlets are going to suddenly all go to Valleyhome to witness debates, while refugee taking affects more or less everyone, not only those who witness debating and their acquitances.
You are refuting basically a strawman of my point as far as I can see.
At the same time there is no basis for our traits under attack under the same measure. The culture invasion stems from our mercenary company going home and talking about these cool new gods and practices. The debate means that our priests debate the converts amongst the company and find out who is right or wrong.

It's a counterstrawman. Either the culture invasion is not a threat to begin with, or the debates will have significant effect in showcasing our acceptance and consideration for foreign beliefs.
 
Okay so what's the plan for next turn I personally will vote for

Main Palace
Sec Integrate March-Stallion Tribes
Sec Integrate March-Stallion Tribes x2
 
New voices, but what do those voices talk about?
Reminder that these people work off direct belief, where ours work off evidence.

AN's 'new voices' specifically meant that those are voices to debate against, actually, so you are misreading it.

AN also specifically said that higher options can give bragging rights to our priests in debates because "look how people flee to us because hahaha what climate change Fythagyna cares for us suck it", so I don't know why are trying to argue with me:

@Academia Nut , would accepting more refugees give more bragging rights to our priests due to our gods clearly favouring us because look at our stable weather?

It can, but it also brings in new voices to debate.

if you think that higher levels should not impact our debating positively but rather negatively, take it to AN, whom I was quoting.

It helps the argument because it showcases our prestige. It hurts the argument because all these new people will further reinforce that our practices are masochistic in the amount of disruption they cause, and they'd further back up the opposition on "Look, all these people share my views."

Could you explain what do you mean here, especially the bolded part?
Last time I checked, helping others to, you know, not starve or die in crossfire and being willing to accept some measure of chaos because of new people arriving is called "being a good person", not masochism.

At the same time there is no basis for our traits under attack under the same measure. The culture invasion stems from our mercenary company going home and talking about these cool new gods and practices. The debate means that our priests debate the converts amongst the company and find out who is right or wrong.

It's a counterstrawman. Either the culture invasion is not a threat to begin with, or the debates will have significant effect in showcasing our acceptance and consideration for foreign beliefs.

Or - and just bear with me for a moment here - it is a question of grades and not a 'yes-no', and a proportion of our society impacted by debates centered around RB and people they talk to cannot possibly be nearly as large as a proportion of people involved in settling in waves of refugees (including shuffling them to the best location and including in the system and so on).

Like, the RB is couple thousand people strong at most. Some - most likely not all, mind you - of them are influenced by the southern beliefs and are going to be debating about those. That's...what, maybe ten-twenty thousands of people?
Other than that, it is Valleyhome (which, admittedly, is quite populous) and Sacred Forest (main priestly city). A lot of people, sure, but not nearly as much as settling in new dudes involves.

Now, refugees. Refugee settling involves incorporating into the system....how many people, each of those a new face, in all the cities and villages, making people there just that bit more likely to be tolerant to different and new?
Actually, indeed, @Academia Nut how many refugees does each tier mean numerically?
 
Could you explain what do you mean here, especially the bolded part?
Last time I checked, helping others to, you know, not starve or die in crossfire and being willing to accept some measure of chaos because of new people arriving is called "being a good person", not masochism.
It's basically pure prestige, but it's masochistic because it generates social disruption and chaos while you are trying to justify that the Ymaryn way of life is correct, you have immigrants disrupting the Ymaryn Way of Life as part of the Ymaryn Way of Life. That means you're producing increases in crime, corruption and social unrest, while arguing that this is awesome.

It's purely to showcase prestige. The more people you bring it the more it undermines your point.
Bringing people in at all is however a valid demonstration of Ymaryn prestige.
Or - and just bear with me for a moment here - it is a question of grades and not a 'yes-no', and a proportion of our society impacted by debates centered around RB and people they talk to cannot possibly be nearly as large as a proportion of people involved in settling in waves of refugees (including shuffling them to the best location and including in the system and so on).

Like, the RB is couple thousand people strong at most. Some - most likely not all, mind you - of them are influenced by the southern beliefs and are going to be debating about those. That's...what, maybe ten-twenty thousands of people?
Other than that, it is Valleyhome (which, admittedly, is quite populous) and Sacred Forest (main priestly city). A lot of people, sure, but not nearly as much as settling in new dudes involves.

Now, refugees. Refugee settling involves incorporating into the system....how many people, each of those a new face, in all the cities and villages, making people there just that bit more likely to be tolerant to different and new?
In which case the religious intrusion carried by the Red Banner is less damaging than the religious intrusion brought by a large wave of refugees. You cannot have both here.

If the Red Banner represents a significant cultural intrusion that we need to take actions to keep foreign values out, then adding an even larger number of refugees increases the weight behind foreign values and the religious debates are effective in reinforcing Cosmopolitan Acceptance through the public debate of foreign values.

If the Red Banner does NOT represent a significant cultural intrusion, then the religious debates are ineffective at reinforcing Cosmopolitan Acceptance, and adding refugees will STILL increase the weight behind foreign values.

As such, there is no scenario where taking in more than the minimum amount of refugees is helpful at a time where we need to reserve Stability to withstand the shocks of tax and administration reforms.
Disregarding the part where we just spent the last 5 turns strongly reinforcing Cosmopolitan Acceptance three times with large intakes, and the part where it's not even being threatened.
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Timewinders on Jul 8, 2017 at 9:50 AM, finished with 70330 posts and 103 votes.
 
It's basically pure prestige, but it's masochistic because it generates social disruption and chaos while you are trying to justify that the Ymaryn way of life is correct, you have immigrants disrupting the Ymaryn Way of Life as part of the Ymaryn Way of Life. That means you're producing increases in crime, corruption and social unrest, while arguing that this is awesome.

It's purely to showcase prestige. The more people you bring it the more it undermines your point.
Bringing people in at all is however a valid demonstration of Ymaryn prestige.

Bring your disagreement with higher levels having a chance to give our priests bragging rights about our values to AN, I've quoted him literally responding to "Can higher levels of refugees give our priests more bragging rights?" with "Yes, they can".
I get that you have your opinion on how refugees work, but it contradicts direct WoG.

In which case the religious intrusion carried by the Red Banner is less damaging than the religious intrusion brought by a large wave of refugees. You cannot have both here.

If the Red Banner represents a significant cultural intrusion that we need to take actions to keep foreign values out, then adding an even larger number of refugees increases the weight behind foreign values and the religious debates are effective in reinforcing Cosmopolitan Acceptance through the public debate of foreign values.

If the Red Banner does NOT represent a significant cultural intrusion, then the religious debates are ineffective at reinforcing Cosmopolitan Acceptance, and adding refugees will STILL increase the weight behind foreign values.

Disregarding the part where we just spent the last 5 turns strongly reinforcing Cosmopolitan Acceptance three times with large intakes, and the part where it's not even being threatened.

Literally what?
Bringing in refugees reinforces our cultural values of, you know, bringing in people.

What's more, them being people from multiple different polities, it is unlikely they can swing our Overton window closer to any one set of their values, because Highlanders, Lowlanders, Swampers, Thunder Speakers and Thunder Horses all have different sets of values, so comparing their impact to more-or-less similar impact from Lowland Priests + soldiers influenced by them does not make a lick of sense.
One is disparate people with wildly different values, backgrounds and most likely less interest in debating than in having a place to live and being grateful for it.
Other is concerted religious push via converts by a group of priests with coherent set of values, secular power and - importantly - common agenda.

I struggle to find the similarities beyond the most wide and vague "Their ideas are different from ours".
 
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@veekie , i think you're doing that thing again where you take your own speculation, and run with it as a given.
 
Bring your disagreement with higher levels having a chance to give our priests bragging rights about our values to AN, I've quoted him literally responding to "Can higher levels of refugees give our priests more bragging rights?" with "Yes, they can".
I get that you have your opinion on how refugees work, but it contradicts direct WoG.
Direct WoG mentions prestige amplification. It does not change that large numbers of refugees have caused social changes before. We get chances to reset the CA trait, and sometimes push the CA trait into a permanent slot whenever we take large amounts of refugees.

He made two statements:
A) It increases the impact of our prestige upon the people.
B) It increases the difficulty of the debate by adding more dissenting voices.

With an unstated:
C) Significant loss of Stability will undermine our argument that our culture is more stable and happier by making people unhappy and the system unstable.
Literally what?
Bringing in refugees reinforces our cultural values of, you know, bringing in people.

What's more, them being people from multiple different polities, it is unlikely they can swing our Overton window closer to any one set of their values, because Highlanders, Lowlanders, Swampers, Thunder Speakers and Thunder Horses all have different sets of values, so comparing their impact to more-or-less similar impact from Lowland Priests + soldiers influenced by them does not make a lick of sense.
One is disparate people with wildly different values, backgrounds and most likely less interest in debating than in having a place to live and being grateful for it.
Other is concerted religious push via converts by a group of priests with coherent set of values, secular power and - importantly - common agenda.

I struggle to find the similarities beyond the most wide and vague "Their ideas are different from ours".
And yet the lowland cultures have more values in common with each other than with us, because we're isolationist.
A big part of the Stability hit is that the refugees all bring their own cultures and way of life with them, which we expend Stability to mesh their practices into ours. Cosmopolitan Acceptance offsets the Stability hit, as our people are accepting that cultures and practices differ while the patiently teach the newcomers...barring really large numbers anyway.

Cosmopolitan Acceptance is not just about accepting people from other cultures. The difference between Cosmopolitan Acceptance and Land of Opportunity is that Cosmopolitan Acceptance believes that foreign cultures have value(which is reinforced by accepting foreign cultures), while Land of Opportunity believes that we should help people(which is reinforced by refugees).
 
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[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [City] No
[X] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)
 
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Valleyhome
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] No
[X] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)
 
You are absolutely wrong.

There is literally no difference if the option wins. If it doesn't, the option would be contributing different things to the vote tally.

Palace via only one Secondary is not going to exist because we cannot take less than Main; so it's an action wasted in a weird case of not winning both actions.
Same goes for Integration.
So I have no idea what do you want to achieve by such a switch.

With an unstated:
C) Significant loss of Stability will undermine our argument that our culture is more stable and happier by making people unhappy and the system unstable.

That's a speculation easily countermanded by us being able to so many people in due to stable enviroment.

A) It increases the impact of our prestige upon the people.

Not only; it also means that we not only talk the talk about acceptance, but also walk the walk. If we take the least option, they may well go "Eh, that's not much to take; you are not really willing to sacrifice shit for your ideals of acceptance, you are just talking a big talk". Putting money (or, rather, Stability) where our mouth is is a good move all on its own.

Besides, taking in refugees never ever raised our Prestige by a single point (if you can quote an update which says we actually do gain Prestige for it, feel free to quote it - it would be an evidence to back your otherwise so far unproven position), so I have no idea where this whole thing about it being Prestige-related is coming from.

Taking in refugees has a chance of being a boon in debate most likely either because of proving that our environment is that stable or because it means we are willing to live up to our ideals instead of abandoning them in the face of even the sllightest discomfort or trouble.

"Not living up fully to our ideals becuase it is a bit hard" is an apt description of taking -.5 instead of -1.5 when in situation with no chance of dying due to it, by the way. Or at least it can (and will, I imagine) be viewed this way in debate if it ever comes up...granted, debates are mostly about Spiritual values, so it is unlikely, but still.

And yet the lowland cultures have more values in common with each other than with us, because we're isolationist.
A big part of the Stability hit is that the refugees all bring their own cultures and way of life with them, which we expend Stability to mesh their practices into ours.

Cosmopolitan Acceptance is not just about accepting people from other cultures. The difference between Cosmopolitan Acceptance and Land of Opportunity is that Cosmopolitan Acceptance believes that foreign cultures have value(which is reinforced by accepting foreign cultures), while Land of Opportunity believes that we should help people(which is reinforced by refugees).

I do not imagine Thunder Speakers culture has anything in common with Swamp People culture, for example. As opposed to them, due to some time being neighbours, prrobably having at least something in common with us. Honourable Death or whatnot.
Highlanders have us-inspired Law and us-inspired farming, so at least two of their social values are most likely modified versions of Justice and Stewards of the Land or something in such vein. Again, most likely more in common with us than with Swampers or Thunder Horses.

We have no idea at all about values of other two beyond them living in wildly different environments with wildly different origins and approaches to warfare and farming. That...does not suggest huge similarity.
So, again, you taking "lowland cultures have more values in common with each other than with us" and using it as a basis of argument instead of thinking about it undermines your whole argument because it is most likely false, almost guaranteed so for at least Highlanders.
 
Palace via only one Secondary is not going to exist because we cannot take less than Main; so it's an action wasted in a weird case of not winning both actions.
Same goes for Integration.
So I have no idea what do you want to achieve by such a switch.

I'd rather have the stallion integration, which I count as a higher priority, be the option that doesn't compete with secondary actions (which have more flexibility and which I expect to be more contentious).
 
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