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Paths of Civilization

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[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [High] Demand territory (+3 Prestige, +3 Wealth, +2 Econ, +4 Econ expansion, -1 Centralization, requires further military commitment, likely requires more actions)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Hatvalley
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] No
[X] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)
 
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)
[] [High] Demand territory (+3 Prestige, +3 Wealth, +2 Econ, +4 Econ expansion, -1 Centralization, requires further military commitment, likely requires more actions)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Valleyhome
[X] [React] Main Expand Econ
[X] [City] Yes
[X] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)
 
DragonParadox said:
So you are arguing that the traits are fundamentally in conflict and that losing CA is inevitable? Because even at the lowest option we still havea good chance to lose stab and on a econ to stab ration it is the worst trade of.
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You are ignoring other beneficial effects of Cosmopolitan Acceptance. At higher levels of refugees, we can get innovation and other traits. It allows us to steal usefull societal effects from other societies.

But I am arguing that doing it just because is not a good idea.
 
Neptune said:
Yes, just as the minors are a polity right now.
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And picking them up as a vassal was an exceedingly risky stunt by a king who went much further than the thread expected, dragging us into an unnecessary multi-front war right before facing Tax Crisis 2.0. Not something we should deliberately repeat.
Adhoc vote count started by ThrawnCA on Jul 7, 2017 at 6:38 AM, finished with 69675 posts and 57 votes.
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[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [High] Demand territory (+3 Prestige, +3 Wealth, +2 Econ, +4 Econ expansion, -1 Centralization, requires further military commitment, likely requires more actions)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Hatvalley
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] No
[X] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)

Changed my mind on the matter of the Highlanders. That wealth just looks to tempting, not to mention the possibility of a new trade dominance.
 
DakkaMania said:
I think it was last turn or the one before. He said that if the sum of both values goes below 4, the North may start to break away.
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Not according to the update where this popped up:
Academia Nut said:
Warning: Under current system, cascade failure begins at end of turn Legit + Stability <= 0 (Legit 3, Stab -3; Legit 2, Stab -2; etc.). Low Centralization may change this from end of turn to a more sensitive form
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[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Valleyhome
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)
[X] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)
 
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veekie said:
If we only had Hatvalley or Lowland Minors to cope with, then maybe. But we have a crisis, so we can't hold onto them satisfactorily, especially if the Swamp Folk take a swing at their southern holdings.
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But that is also an argument against continuing to fight them at all, and focusing on our actual problems. The High Kingdom thinks we're going to dominate them and conquer them eventually, taking their vital strategic territory shows that to be true thus they enter into a life or death mode, where as if they're a vassal they can have the believe they'll just break free when like all the other civilizations in the lowlands there's a severe crisis that weakens us; except we don't really have civil wars like the lowlands undoubtedly do, and our culture integration should surpass that of the lowlands.

Or we just go for the humiliate, and show we're not an immediate threat that's going to conquer them as they fear, so they're not in a do or die scenario which was their reasoning for declaring war. At that point, waging a war against someone who just wiped out the regional hegemony, who didn't choose to conquer you, during a time of grave ecological instability; very quickly becomes questionable.
ThrawnCA said:
And picking them up as a vassal was an exceedingly risky stunt by a king who went much further than the thread expected, dragging us into an unnecessary multi-front war right before facing Tax Crisis 2.0. Not something we should deliberately repeat.
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I agree, that's why I'm not voting for that option and am just going for the humiliate so we can end the war right now, and focus on the current crisis happening.

My argument was just that the benefits of vassalizing the High Kingdom vs conquering some of their territory should be in favor of the vassal option given we're currently having problems with our administration, and historically polities were much more open to being a vassal or giving tribute to others if it meant they weren't attacked and/or could call upon the one they send tribute to, could maintain their territorial integrity and internal political dominance against their rivals; so the military actions of conquering vs vassal shouldn't be much different from one another.
 
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I am puzzled by people who chose ALL the lowland options which means potentially 3 stability loss when we can digest them slowly.
 
[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Crack down on their priests (-1 Stability, potential war with vassal, potential +1 Religious authority)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [High] Humiliate (+1 Prestige, completes immediately)
[X] [RB] Remain at rest
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] No
[X] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)
 
ThrawnCA said:
@veekie The land grab option is listed as demanding territory. That sounds like the HK get a say in which territory it is.
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Uh...that's not really how landgrabs work. Generally you occupy their land, and because they're too beaten to shit, the Demand Territory option basically forfeits the seized land in exchange for peace. Possession is most of it.

Kiba said:
[] [High] Demand territory (+3 Prestige, +3 Wealth, +2 Econ, +4 Econ expansion, -1 Centralization, requires further military commitment, likely requires more actions)
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@Kiba

Forgot the X
DakkaMania said:
Ah, okay. I misremembered then. Might have been what we had back then.


Btw, if we grab their HK mines, shouldn't we get the roads they built there as well? The HK used to be enthusiastic road builders (they needed the Centralization).

So in terms of roads, it should be a net benefit, even.
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If we were so lucky. Not holding out hopes, but it'd be nice.
Neptune said:
But that is also an argument against continuing to fight them at all, and focusing on our actual problems. The High Kingdom thinks we're going to dominate them and conquer them eventually, taking their vital strategic territory shows that to be true thus they enter into a life or death mode, where as if they're a vassal they can have the believe they'll just break free when like all the other civilizations in the lowlands there's a severe crisis that weakens us; except we don't really have civil wars like the lowlands undoubtedly do, and our culture integration should surpass that of the lowlands.
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And you can see right this turn, the Lowland Minors are already threatening rebellion or values. This is a culturally weak polity at that, and the Highlanders have centuries of continuity making their values harder to erode.

Then you factor in the possibility of Lord's Loyalty demanding that we send troops to help the HK with the Swamp Folk AND send troops to help the LMs with the Thunder Horse. Not very sustainable at present.

As it is, taking the vital strategic territory forces them out of the war. Even if they wanted to fight, they can't, the only reason they got the mines at all was that Hathatyn dissolved, they're too hard to take by force.
Or we just go for the humiliate, and show we're not an immediate threat that's going to conquer them as they fear, so they're not in a do or die scenario which was their reasoning for declaring war. At that point, waging a war against someone who just wiped out the regional hegemony, who didn't choose to conquer you, during a time of grave ecological instability; very quickly becomes questionable.
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Explicitly not happening. People already asked AN, and our holding the Lowland Minors with Iron makes us an existential threat to most of the parties down there. They recognized that if we can hold onto the land, they're fucked no matter what

They WILL fight, and keep fighting, unless somehow defanged or the target becomes too hard to be possible to take.
Salt Gifts won't stop them attacking us, humiliation only defers the threat.

We can take them for now, but for the rematch? When we're busy fighting off the tax crisis, and potentially when the Nomads/Thunder Speakers/Swamp Folk/Thunder Horse make another go at us.
Not nearly so simple.


ThrawnCA said:
OK, but narratively I really like the tribute option. Slap them on the wrist for attacking us, but make it clear we spared them. "We could take everything, but we didn't start this and we're willing to let you go." Make their fear of us unfounded.
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I really like the option too, but AN already confirmed that they(as in all the lowland parties) aren't going to stop fighting us as long as the Lowland Minors exist under our control, and our traits make losing territory at all a devastating chain reaction.

The biggest value to defanging the Highland Kingdom is that it halves our threatened zone and forces them to buy their bronze from us.
Bit hard to wage war on the guys selling you the weapons.
 
ThrawnCA said:
Well, in that scenario we wouldn't bother protecting them any more, is the thing.
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It's not that simple though. Due to our traits the onus is on us, the Lords to make sure the vassal behaves. If they rebel, we have to get them back. If we let them break away, even if we survive the stab hit our other peripheries will start judging us and breaking away.

There's no going back on this.
 
Yeah, I'm voting for both middle options for the Highlands. I really appreciate veekie's argument (as well as the fact that any territory ceded by the Highlanders won't increase our exposure much; only the defunct Hathatyns border it.) By the same token, just Light Gray Peacing it to buy a couple turns of relative peace for tax-repair seems reasonable as well.
 
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One of the bigger things pushing veekie's perspective on this (in my mind) is that controlling tin mines (in the bronze age) is much more valuable than gold mines. Noone but us (Iron age exceptions and all) NEED gold to keep running. Everyone else needs tin in much higher quantities than gold, and it's exceptionally rare.
 
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)
[X] [High] Demand territory (+3 Prestige, +3 Wealth, +2 Econ, +4 Econ expansion, -1 Centralization, requires further military commitment, likely requires more actions)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Valleyhome
[X] [React] Main Expand Econ
[X] [City] Yes
[X] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)

Revote. We really need that wealth plus security.
 
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