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Paths of Civilization

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SpeckofStardust said:
The Census should not be rushed period.
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Its most similar to The Law, whic we two turned. AN confirmed that the only consequence of rushing was missing a few innovation rolls.

Census is actually easier to do instantly because you don't need to account for the data changing as you work if every province did it parallel.
Neptune said:
I honestly don't understand why people would want to vote for either the second or third option, as they're shittier versions or both option 1 and option 4.
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Vassal is much worse than land grab here. It maintains the HK as a polity, which will spawn similar events to this turn, only they actually have a distinct culture, history and administration.
Then they break away or we eat Stability hits at a bad time

Land grab's purpose is strategic. We have ONE target, their tin and copper mines. Take those away from the HK and the war is over until they figure out iron.
 
[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [High] Demand territory (+3 Prestige, +3 Wealth, +2 Econ, +4 Econ expansion, -1Centralization, requires further military commitment, likely requires more actions)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Valleyhome
[X] [React] Main Expand Econ
[X] [City] No
[X] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)
 
10ebbor10 said:
On a side note, why do people think that taking more refugees will strengthen Cosmopolitan acceptance. We have love of Wisdom, which means we look at things logically, or at least try to. Things that work are done again, things that don't work are abandonned.

If refugees keep causing problems (see: Stability Loss), then Love of Wisdom will tell us to get rid of them.
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I've no clue, particularly when Academia Nut recently said that the trait was fine. For christ sake, the Ymaryn just elected a nomad as king. A Nomad. As King. If that isn't cosmopolitan acceptance I don't know what is.
 
[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [High] Demand territory (+3 Prestige, +3 Wealth, +2 Econ, +4 Econ expansion, -1 Centralization, requires further military commitment, likely requires more actions)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Hatvalley
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] Yes
[X] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)
 
10ebbor10 said:
On a side note, why do people think that taking more refugees will strengthen Cosmopolitan acceptance. We have love of Wisdom, which means we look at things logically, or at least try to. Things that work are done again, things that don't work are abandonned.

If refugees keep causing problems (see: Stability Loss), then Love of Wisdom will tell us to get rid of them.
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So you are arguing that the traits are fundamentally in conflict and that losing CA is inevitable? Because even at the lowest option we still havea good chance to lose stab and on a econ to stab ration it is the worst trade of.
 
SpeckofStardust said:
Were talking about 1 person to an entire government which effects including managing our entire population if we had and heroic adm person I wouldn't mind but we don't.
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We have WOG that rushing megaprojects doesn't cause problems; at most it imposes an opportunity cost because of fewer innovation rolls etc.

So far as I know we have no evidence for rushing the census causing a problem specifically, so I'm inclined to discount your instinct on this.
 
[x] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)

[x] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[x] [Low] Crack down on their priests (-1 Stability, potential war with vassal, potential +1 Religious authority)
[x] [Low] Restrict right to wage war to defensive only (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[x] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[x] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[x] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)

[x] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)

[x] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Valleyhome

[x] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival

[x] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)

[x] [City] No
 
Part of the good news here is that we have Poppies for a really cheap Wealth booster. I would like to Main Poppies soon; that will make it a trade good, and give us an idea of the social and international issues it causes. (Secondary doesn't make it a trade good, so we'd see a lot less of the impact.)
 
veekie said:
Vassal is much worse than land grab here. It maintains the HK as a polity, which will spawn similar events to this turn, only they actually have a distinct culture, history and administration.
Then they break away or we eat Stability hits at a bad time

Land grab's purpose is strategic. We have ONE target, their tin and copper mines. Take those away from the HK and the war is over until they figure out iron.
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Yes, just as the minors are a polity right now. And their culture is considerably better than the former, given we've influenced them over a considerably longer period of time and they don't actually practice sacrifice and I believe they have a similar god to Crow. They also work and live on pretty similar terrain as the Ymaryn.

I just don't see where you're coming from where having them as a vassal is a bad, given what we've seen of them historically and the similarities. Regarding them breaking away, that's just a poor argument. We have plenty of traits to mitigate such a thing, and we're facing that very same risk from other polities like the Lowland minors and Hatvalley. The land grab idea is awfully presumptuous as well, given there's zero indication that's what is going to happen, plus in the event of you being right all but assures they're going to come attack us back for the land to reclaim the mines given it's strategically necessary. At which point, they just become a vassal then. Frankly you're calculations seem off, as IMO the chance of the High Kingdom breaking out of vassalage in a war is lower than the High Kingdom warring against us to reclaim their strategic goods.

It is slightly annoying you were one of the ones hollering about administration issues and no new provinces, and yet, here you are voting for conquest of territory which we don't really need; that'll take actions that we don't have to spend, when we're facing various crisis and other wars are occurring too.
 
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SpeckofStardust said:
Were talking about 1 person to an entire government which effects including managing our entire population if we had and heroic adm person I wouldn't mind but we don't.
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Except...that's not how Census works?

You have the following challenges:
-Figuring out what information you want to gather. Initial naive attempt will try to be comprehensive, but once thethey collate the data swiftly recognize that this isn't working and dump the info down to bare details. This stage is invariable in duration and can happen in less than 10 years.

-Actually collecting the data. This is manpower intensive, but the time taken scales inversely to the manpower committed. Assuming all local authorities cooperate to perform the census for their locality(i.e. Megaproject Support + Main + Symphony), this can be completed in less than 10 years time, though the accuracy drops if you space it out over multiple generations due to people migrating, being born or dying.

-Organizing and using the data. This stage depends a lot on how you collected the data. This is also a problem that can be solved by throwing lots of people at the problem to sum up and categorize the information.

Really the hard parts are throwing enough manpower at the problem and then figuring out how to organize it.
It's easier to rush than The Gardens even.
 
How to deal with foreign gods?
[] [RA] Stamp down on all of this (-2 Stability, +2 Religious Authority)
[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[] [RA] The correct gods will make themselves known (-1 Religious Authority, potential shift in Spiritual Values)

How to deal with the lowlanders? (Pick as many as you like)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Crack down on their priests (-1 Stability, potential war with vassal, potential +1 Religious authority)
[] [Low] Restrict right to wage war to defensive only (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[] [Low] Permit their use of iron tools (Allows iron tools to be traded to vassal)
[] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)

War Goals for Highlanders
[] [High] Humiliate (+1 Prestige, completes immediately)
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[] [High] Demand territory (+3 Prestige, +3 Wealth, +2 Econ, +4 Econ expansion, -1 Centralization, requires further military commitment, likely requires more actions)
[] [High] Subjugate (+5 Prestige, +5 Wealth, gain new vassal, unlikely to complete this turn)

Deploy the Red Banner
[] [RB] Remain at rest
[] [RB] Deploy north to guard against nomads
[] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Valleyhome
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Hatvalley
[] [RB] Deploy to assist vassal against the Swamp Folk

Trouble's brewing, how to prepare?
[] [React] Main Expand Econ
[] [React] Main Build Mills
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[] [React] Main Expand Forests
[] [React] Main Survey

You're having trouble with the management of cities, make Sacred Forest a Free City?
[] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)
[X] [City] No

Everyone else isn't coping with the weather well
[X] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)
[] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)
[] [Refugee] Encourage people to abandon their homes for you territory (-2 Stab, potential further loss, +6-8 Econ)
[] [Refugee] Let everyone know that your environment is stable (-3 Stab, potential further loss, +9-11 Econ, ???)
[] [Refugee] Bring in absolutely everyone you can (-4 Stab, potential further loss, +11-14 Econ, overcrowding, ???)
 
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[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)
[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)
[X] [High] Extra tribute (+2 Prestige, +2 Wealth, probably completes this turn)
[X] [RB] Deploy against Highlanders from Valleyhome
[X] [React] Main Expand Econ
[X] [City] Yes
[X] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)
 
BungieONI said:
Okay folks I am going to throw a vote out here and I want to debate it:


[] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)

[] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)

[] [High] Humiliate (+1 Prestige, completes immediately)

[] [RB] Deploy to assist vassal against the Swamp Folk

[] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)

[] [React] Main Expand Economy

[] [Refugee] Bring in a bit more than usual (-1 Stab, potential further loss, +4-5 Econ)

This is meant to let us have good econ, prevents famine, at the risk of -2 Stability(almost hits the <= 0 badness if that is still in effect). Gets us out of the war and lightens admin load by turning it a true city into a free city.

I ain't sure though
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Doesn't the north secede if stability + Legitimacy is lower than 4? Academia Nut said things are still unstable up there.
 
[X] [RA] Increase debates to determine the truth (-2 to +2 Religious Authority based on success of debates, potential shift in Spiritual Values)

[X] [Low] Force them to follow the spirit of the law (Potential stability loss, potential war with vassal)
[X] [Low] Crack down on their priests (-1 Stability, potential war with vassal, potential +1 Religious authority)
[X] [Low] Introduce black soil to improve their conditions (Teaches black soil to vassal)
[X] [Low] Introduce mill technology to improve their conditions (Teaches water mill to vassal)
[X] [Low] Permit their use of iron tools (Allows iron tools to be traded to vassal)
[X] [Low] Send over assistance (Transfer 1 Econ + 1 Martial)

[X] [High] Humiliate (+1 Prestige, completes immediately)

[X] [RB] Deploy to assist vassal against the Swamp Folk
[X] [React] Main Improve Annual Festival
[X] [City] Yes (Transfers 2 Econ + 2 Econ expansion, nulls cost of maintenance for Sacred Forest)
[X] [Refugee] Just those who come of their own initiative (Potential stab loss, +2 Econ)

So the goal of the plan is too get us out of the High Kingdom war, so we can actually use those troops to greater benefit elsewhere given I don't see the benefit of conquering territory from them nor the extra resources from the Tribute option; given to acquire them will require further war actions that IMO are better spent and more efficiently spent elsewhere.

That elsewhere in this plan is with the lowland vassal, or the nomads if they happen to attack. Thus I've gone with all of the lowland options, with the exception of limiting them to defensive wars as due to the lowlands nature and the current borders of our vassal it's too our benefit if they expand. The various technologies improve the ability to improve their land, and also makes human labor more effective thus limiting the chance that removing slaves forces them to defend their practice.

So with our army free from not having to fight the High Kingdom, and with our mercanaries being deployed to the lowlands, it means in either best case or worst case scenario we can achieve the optimial outcome. If they don't declare war, then our forces are free to expand their territory giving them additional security this turn, and with the extra technology should limit their offensive war desire given they'd have to implement and integrate what they have. Worse case, they do declare war, and we have both our army free and the Red Banner to defeat them.

I think it's quite likely to lean in our favour given I'm taking the debate religion option instead of surpressing it, and we should have a benefit here given we just destroyed the competing religion, we have overflowing mysticism, we have high prestige and numerous mega projects. Combined with the festival further showing the carrot, it should mean an actual war declaration is unlikely. Without needing to go into what happened at Xohyr.
 
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Neptune said:
Yes, just as the minors are a polity right now. And their culture is considerably better than the former, given we've influenced them over a considerably longer period of time and they don't actually practice sacrifice and I believe they have a similar god to Crow. They also work and live on pretty similar terrain as the Ymaryn.
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The Minors are not however, a civilization. No history, no administration of their own, only the Xohyr priest teachings and ruling. They don't really have any idea what to do.
I just don't see where you're coming from where having them as a vassal is a bad, given what we've seen of them historically and the similarities. Regarding them breaking away, that's just a poor argument. We have plenty of traits to mitigate such a thing, and we're facing that very same risk from other polities like the Lowland minors and Hatvalley.
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The problem is the timing of them as a vassal is bad. We don't have the attention to spare to cope with such issues when we're still far from done with the Lowland Minors.

If we only had Hatvalley or Lowland Minors to cope with, then maybe. But we have a crisis, so we can't hold onto them satisfactorily, especially if the Swamp Folk take a swing at their southern holdings.
The land grab idea is awfully presumptuous as well, given there's zero indication that's what is going to happen, plus in the event of you being right all but assures they're going to come attack us back for the land to reclaim the mines given it's strategically necessary. At which point, they just become a vassal then. Frankly you're calculations seem off, as IMO the chance of the High Kingdom breaking out of vassalage in a war is lower than the High Kingdom warring against us to reclaim their strategic goods.
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The land grab is predicated upon a few known factors:
-Sending the Red Banner through Hatvalley would make it a battle where they can't leverage quantity, and we have Iron armed heavy infantry versus their medium infantry. It's a fight that favors us.

-Logically you'd grab the land you are occupying. If we sent the Red Banner to Hatvalley, then they're going to be taking the Hathatyn Pass, which was explicitly laid out in a previous turn to be the Hathatyn mines that the Highlanders were after.

-The Highland Kingdom has better odds of breaking out of vassalage, because they'd retain their own mines unless we take further action to split the mines off from them. Which would be against Lords Loyalty

-The Highland Kingdom has poor odds of retaking the mines because...how the heck are they going to attack a superior quality force without any metal weapons?
It is slightly annoying you were one of the ones hollering about administration issues and no new provinces, and yet, here you are voting for conquest of territory which we don't really need; that'll take actions that we don't have to spend, when we're facing various crisis and other wars are occurring too.
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I'm not an ideological voter. The side being backed changes based on circumstances, and the current circumstances is:
-We have Highlanders, Swampers, and Thunder Horse taking a swing at us from three different directions at once while the Thunder Speakers are waiting for an opportunity.
--Highlanders
---We can take the Highlanders permanently out of the war by full conquest. According to AN this will be difficult, even with the Red Banner, and we know vassals can explicitly break away when under stress(whereas a full province cannot unless we suffer full fracture)
---We can take the Highlanders semi-permanently out of the war by taking their mines. According to AN this can potentially finish in one turn if we commit the Red Banner in the right place. Odds are this will finish by end of next turn at worst, as the mountain pass is the strongest terrain for the Red Banner, and right next to our Hatvalley colony for support. They will not be able to fight us until they obtain another source of metal.
---We can take the Highlanders temporarily out of the war by fighting for reparations or humiliation. They will rejoin
--Swampers
---Nothing we can do here really. Their core lands are out of range.
--Thunder Horse
---We can let the vassals take up to the river and defend along that boundary. Won't stop them, but it helps.
--Thunder Speakers
---Nothing we can do here but look too strong to swing at.

-We have the administrative control issues in remission, which gives us room to take some risks here.
--We can spend the risk in settling far eastern Redhills to bridge to Lowland Minors and start work on their cultural unification, but we don't have the actions to do so
--We can spend the risk in taking the Highlander mines, which will cripple their warmaking capacity if successful.

That, is the logic behind this. Taking the mines of the Highlanders is the fastest way to defang them for the next 10 turns, which changes things from Defend Three Directions to Defend Two Directions.
This is a substantial qualitative difference in our ability to manage the lowland war.
 
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