Paths of Civilization

Sivantic · Jun 29, 2017

Glassware said:
No, we're the People. Parts of the people are disenfranchised. We have to make that right.

Our Northern Provinces are Colonies and Marches. They have their own turns and can enact their own projects. That is why I count them as different. Yes we should make this right, but we do that by building roads, not expanding into the Steppes.

BungieONI said:
There are two parts to the North problem:

Connectivity. Fixed by trails and boats and docks.

And.

Happiness/infrastructure. By making Phy king we give their candidate influence in the halls of power, which makes them happy and lessens the divide.

Except, he won't be building infrastructure. His agenda is conquest. What form of conquest would give the Northern Provinces more power? More provinces in the Steppes of course.

ETA50M said:
Our northern provinces are our "newest" provinces while our southern provinces are ruled by the oldest and wealthiest families. It's less a North vs South divide and more of the Oligarchy not allowing in more families and willing to dilute their own power. It specifically says "entrench southern influence networks against them". Our northern oligarchs are routinely sidelined and comparatively poorer then their southern counterparts.

That is our fault. The way to fix that however is to increase connections via new trails into the north, not create even more northern provinces

ThrawnCA · Jun 29, 2017

Guys and gals, remember how we snubbed Patryn during the tax crisis?

Let's give the North a chance this time. The guy's not perfect, but he's not likely to do anything permanent. He wants to conquer, sure, but so long as he's smart about it, that shouldn't be so terrible ATM - and we know he'll be smart about it, he's a Martial Hero.

In fact, a burst of expansive conquest, followed by peaceful turtling and building upward, sounds like a smart strategy in this climate crisis.

DragonParadox · Jun 29, 2017

VoidZero said:
The benefit from the guy may be off set by his war agenda. Since war is very expensive and spoil taking is generally frowned by our people. We are also unsure about our food supply.

Also, update the button status to 4? We are entering shitcreek after all.

Where did you get spoil taking being frowned on? The only thing we do not take is slaves.

Raichu1972 · Jun 29, 2017

I'm starting to think the North/South divide is less connectivity and more investment

When is the last time we have build anything in the north?

The provinces likely build everything up there themselves using balanced policy, and the Stallion Tribes have been essentially independent for centuries.

The divide is most likely the North realizing that they don't really get much from the South, now that they can handle nomad raids on their own.

We should build an aqueduct or a library in the North, or maybe even a megaproject, instead of hoarding all of our goodies in Valleyhome/Sacred Forest.

Edit: Nevermind, AN interrupt said the problem is that they need to get everything from the South, so they resent the fact that they have to kowtow to oligarchs living in opulence while they have to struggle on the steps against nomads with no such luxuries.

BungieONI · Jun 29, 2017

VoidZero said:
The benefit from the guy may be off set by his war agenda. Since war is very expensive and spoil taking is generally frowned by our people. We are also unsure about our food supply.

Also, update the button status to 4? We are entering shitcreek after all.

Ehh I'll update it if some more people want me to, need a small threshold to be crossed first.

Hey folks should I push the Exterminatus Level to 4 in my sig?

Sivantic · Jun 29, 2017

ThrawnCA said:
Guys and gals, remember how we snubbed Patryn during the tax crisis?

Let's give the North a chance this time. The guy's not perfect, but he's not likely to do anything permanent. He wants to conquer, sure, but so long as he's smart about it, that shouldn't be so terrible ATM - and we know he'll be smart about it, he's a Martial Hero.

In fact, a burst of expansive conquest, followed by peaceful turtling and building upward, sounds like a smart strategy in this climate crisis.

And which way do you think he will conquer? The Lowlands, giving the Southern Provinces more power, or into the Steppes, to create more Northern Provinces so they can't be ignored?

Citino · Jun 29, 2017

Sivantic said:
Oh hey, AN proves me right. Voting Phygrif in will start an expansion into the Steppes to boost the importance of the Northern Provinces. Trying to expand into the Steppes is suicide. We cannot deal with an even bigger northern border with Nomads.

...You do realize we were just talking about a steppes expansion when AN brought up propagating the march, and pretty much everyone thought it was a fairly good idea.

Oh, and AN didn't even prove you right. He said that he'd strengthen the north, and/or conquer territory for everyone. Last I checked, the steppes are decidedly not useful to everyone. Not to mention it'd be pretty worthless land without some decent investment, especially compared to the collapsed Hathatyn or MW's land which we can grab.

Ghostdevil said:
No its not explicitly, He didn't take over the turn, but it IS possible, More likely than Non-Heroics
I don't remember the @Academia Nut quote but he said it was possible for Non-Admin heroics to do so.

We already got AN to say that most candidates probably won't take over the turn. I really can't offer much more assurance than that and the fact that he's not heroic admin.

Guile · Jun 29, 2017

Dythuwyn - Patrician. Agenda: Valleyhome Association Supremacy. Admin: Excellent, Diplo: Excellent, War: Poor. Turns King: 1

I kinda like this guy. A monster, but loyal to The Family. He'll cause as many problems as he starts, but an Art revolution would be neat.

Giirry - Golden Boy. Agenda: Land Reform/Bribery. Admin: Mediocre, Diplo: Good, War: Abysmal. Turns King: 2, maybe 1

I like his platform of Distribute Land, but unfortunately Luck isn't a stat (... that we know of).

Phygrif - Chieftain. Agenda: Conquest. Admin: Mediocre, Diplo: Mediocre, War: Heroic. Turns King: 1, maybe 2

He's got kind of a shit agenda for us right now, we totally don't need chariots and I don't really care about expansion right now. But I DO like the idea that the People are so egalitarian a weird nomad can make it to the seat of King.

The regency is just a terrible precedent in general.

[X][King] Dythuwyn (+1 Stability, Sec Expand Econ + Sec Art Patronage)
[X] [King] Giirry (Main Distribute Land, may have other oligarchs attempt to kill him)

Candesce said:
And I don't expect his changes or the way he goes about enforcing them to be pleasant. This guy's the heir to the guilds who've used assassinations in the past, and he most certainly does not have the good of the Ymaryn as a whole in mind. He's likely to be able to do a lot of damage, very quickly.

A single background use of Restore Order against, say, our new machinists for trying to do something new would set disastrous precedent.

You can't just tar all artisans with the brush of the pottery lords from like 10 generations ago! He's called out as planning to funnel wealth into Valleyhome, not that he'll have all his rivals killed.

Sivantic said:
Going with Rulwyna. When the other choices are corruption, I am going to go with the child.

... You realize who Rulwyna's regent is going to be, right? Dulwythyn the loyal monster.

Motoko · Jun 29, 2017

God damn, I hate the bandwagon. Especially when people just vote the exact same thing as someone else copy-paste style. It pisses me off how a vote can be won by people unwilling to even discuss why their selection is sensible, let alone good for long term planning.

ETA50M · Jun 29, 2017

Sivantic said:
Our Northern Provinces are Colonies and Marches. They have their own turns and can enact their own projects. That is why I count them as different. Yes we should make this right, but we do that by building roads, not expanding into the Steppes.

Except, he won't be building infrastructure. His agenda is conquest. What form of conquest would give the Northern Provinces more power? More provinces in the Steppes of course.

That is our fault. The way to fix that however is to increase connections via new trails into the north, not create even more northern provinces

It's not just our Marches and col9ny though, it also includes Stonepen, Northshore and I believe Blackriver as well. We have to build not just trails but extended projects up there as well. We can manage the Northshore Saltern in a couple of turns as well.

Citino · Jun 29, 2017

Sivantic said:
And which way do you think he will conquer? The Lowlands, giving the Southern Provinces more power, or into the Steppes, to create more Northern Provinces so they can't be ignored?

Lowlands. Not much to be gained from conquering the steppes, while you can get a shitload of pretty much everything from the lowlands.

Powerofmind · Jun 29, 2017

[X] [King] Rulwyna (Main Expand Econ)

I can only vote this way.

notgreat · Jun 29, 2017

On a side note... I think this is the final confirmation that AN is absolutely horrible at predicting his voter base.

Academia Nut said:
There will be four options. I expect that three choices will have about 30% thread support each and 10% for the remaining one, and everyone will have at most two choices they would be okay with and be vehemently, vehemently opposed to the other choices.

Vote Tally : Original - Paths of Civilization | Page 2548 | Sufficient Velocity [Posts: 63703-63903]
##### NetTally 1.9.8

Task: King

[32][King] Phygrif (-1 Legitimacy, Main Build Chariots, Heavens Hawk become a March)
[8][King] Rulwyna (Main Expand Econ)
[8][King] Dythuwyn (+1 Stability, Sec Expand Econ + Sec Art Patronage)
[1][King] Giirry (Main Distribute Land, may have other oligarchs attempt to kill him)

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Hat

[48][Hat] Yes, become a Colony

——————————————————————————————————————————————Task: Refugee

[42][Refugee] Take in as many as possible (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, +6-8 Econ, different benefits if Hatvalley a colony)
[3][Refugee] Whoever comes on their own (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[2][Refugee] Encourage resettlement (-1 Stability, chance of further loss, +4-5 Econ)

Total No. of Voters: 50

BungieONI · Jun 29, 2017

Raichu1972 said:
I'm starting to think the North/South divide is less connectivity and more investment

When is the last time we have build anything in the north?

The provinces likely build everything up there themselves using balanced policy, and the Stallion Tribes have been essentially independent for centuries.

The divide is most likely the North realizing that they don't really get much from the South, now that they can handle nomad raids on their own.

We should build an aqueduct or a library in the North, or maybe even a megaproject, instead of hoarding all of our goodies in Valleyhome/Sacred Forest.

This has been talked about on the thread a lot recently and this was determined to be part of it.

The north feels neglected. By Connectivity and building stuff for them.

See this post.

Academia Nut said:
All the best industries and centres of culture are in the south, so the north is dependent upon them for a large number of things beyond immediate survival, and they have to dance to the tune of the southern chiefs to get the good stuff.

Glassware · Jun 29, 2017

Sivantic said:
Except, he won't be building infrastructure. His agenda is conquest. What form of conquest would give the Northern Provinces more power? More provinces in the Steppes of course.

You're fearmongering. He will most likely not have the ability to set policy or declare war without our say so. He just makes it rewarding to do so by being a Heroic Martial king, and the action he automatically takes bolsters our military to that effect.

ETA50M · Jun 29, 2017

Motoko said:
God damn, I hate the bandwagon. Especially when people just vote the exact same thing as someone else copy-paste style. It pisses me off how a vote can be won by people unwilling to even discuss why their selection is sensible, let alone good for long term planning.

It's not a bandwagon that no one wants a child ruler.

Ghostdevil · Jun 29, 2017

notgreat said:
On a side note... I think this is the final confirmation that AN is absolutely horrible at predicting his voter base.

I think its the regency one that he expected to get 10% at most... because Heredity is Always bad, no matter what.
Guess not :O :Edit

Academia Nut · Jun 29, 2017

notgreat said:
On a side note... I think this is the final confirmation that AN is absolutely horrible at predicting his voter base.

I will admit that not only was I wrong, but I figured Phygrif would be the unloved 10%.

Andres · Jun 29, 2017

Phygrif only wants to fight nomads. This, I feel, is acceptable.

veekie · Jun 29, 2017

ETA50M said:
Child rulers are the worst thing to happen to Kingdoms and Empires.

The child is by far the worst choice we can pick. Our nobles are kept in check by the King, our lower class know they have a voice when they are being exploited and we spent the last few turns going on a purge of corruption. Removing all these limitations for our oligarchs and establishment to run wild for the next 2 to 4 turns will destroy us. These advisors will make it so that these new powers they gain will become permanent. However they are all garbage.

100% this, child rulers are an unfortunate consequence of hereditary rule where you have definite incompetence and nobody around actually benefits from raising the child properly

Karugus said:
No... He's planning on leveraging his kingship to get the North more political relevance and influence against the Oligarchal families that utterly dominate the South and are entrenched against the North.

Giving the North more stake and influence in how the People are actually governed is pretty much the best way to keep them around right now. I know it's sort of hard to consider, but breaking the political dominance of the South is a good thing.

Like this is utterly non-fucking-sensical. 'The South has a disproportionate amount of political power, the lawfully elected Northern King using his influence and authority to give the North a bigger voice in governance and break some of the power bases for the ancient Oligarchal families /=/ civil fucking war.

Explicitly false now

Academia Nut said:
He'll probably strengthen the north/conquer territory for everyone.

Whether you want the north strong right now is a different question.

He makes the North stronger and more independent without actually mending the split. Previously they don't split off since they rely on Southern resources.

Basically it temporarily fixes political unhappiness in exchange for making the divide have actual teeth.

Essentially creating a Red State / Blue State scenario.

...and he's still far from the worst candidate.

Citino said:
@Academia Nut What kind of complaints about 'southern influence' do the northerners have?

I think it's becoming clear that this isn't just a case of us ignoring them too long, the north may have literally been pushed outside, or at least to the fringe, of the oligarchy.

No, only heroic admins take over the turn, because they don't need our guidance. The exception might be if a heroic martial was in a situation where the only option is fighting, I suspect, in which case they know better than us how to deal with a situation and will resolve it themselves.

IIRC all Heroes can take over their turn, just that Admins are the most likely because they are always relevant.

Citino · Jun 29, 2017

Academia Nut said:
I will admit that not only was I wrong, but I figured Phygrif would be the unloved 10%.

Holy shit, really? I was thinking it would be golden boy that was the 10%.

Motoko · Jun 29, 2017

ETA50M said:
It's not a bandwagon that no one wants a child ruler.

Its a bandwagon when nobody even states why they like their choice, and just doesn't participate.

Candesce · Jun 29, 2017

Citino said:
pretty much everyone thought it was a fairly good idea.

I didn't, but I don't consider it sufficiently bad to change my King vote over.

Raichu1972 · Jun 29, 2017

Motoko said:
God damn, I hate the bandwagon. Especially when people just vote the exact same thing as someone else copy-paste style. It pisses me off how a vote can be won by people unwilling to even discuss why their selection is sensible, let alone good for long term planning.

Is there anything in particular that you want me to explain about why I voted for nomad king?

Because I'm willing to if you want to air out your grievances.

Susano · Jun 29, 2017

ThrawnCA said:
Guys and gals, remember how we snubbed Patryn during the tax crisis?

Who cares? That's literally generations ago and won't be in the North's memory, and besides, Patryn was wrong then and Chariot Boy is wrong now.

In fact, a burst of expansive conquest, followed by peaceful turtling and building upward, sounds like a smart strategy in this climate crisis.

Yes, but not against the Nomads! We're missing our opportunity in the Lowlands!

Paths of Civilization

Carbon-based biped

Seven gremlins in a trench coat

Having a really great time right now

Herald of Iron to The People

In Madness Fallen

Seven gremlins in a trench coat

The Devil of Ghosts

Herald of Iron to The People