Paths of Civilization

Citino · Jun 17, 2017

BungieONI said:
Citino, if she has 4 Heroic stats I will literally crawl through the screen, manifest in the story, and kiss her. Because damn that is so broken it is not funny.

Well, there is a good chance that she is Heroic Admin/Diplo and Mysticism. We know that she considered herself about equal to her mother, and the last update proved that she is extremely good at both networking and figuring out how to connect the economy together. So thats 2-3 that are likely heroic.

Martial is a bit less likely. She isn't going to be bad at it, since she spent her time as a teen on the battlefield and was taught by her heroic martial father, but I'm not quite certain whether that experience will be enough to be 'heroic'.

So we probably have a double or triple heroic king coming up, possibly even a quadruple if we get lucky.

BlueFlamingWings · Jun 17, 2017

Citino said:
Well, there is a good chance that she is Heroic Admin/Diplo and Mysticism. We know that she considered herself about equal to her mother, and the last update proved that she is extremely good at both networking and figuring out how to connect the economy together. So thats 2-3 that are likely heroic.

Martial is a bit less likely. She isn't going to be bad at it, since she spent her time as a teen on the battlefield and was taught by her heroic martial father, but I'm not quite certain whether that experience will be enough to be 'heroic'.

So we probably have a double or triple heroic king coming up, possibly even a quadruple if we get lucky.

I actually don't know about Admin, but if she's equal with her mother at Mysticism but not as good at Martial despite spending most of her time on that, I'll eat my hat.

BungieONI · Jun 17, 2017

BlueFlamingWings said:
I actually don't know about Admin, but if she's equal with her mother at Mysticism but not as good at Martial despite spending most of her time on that, I'll eat my hat.

Admin is looking very likely because of this line in the update.

Academia Nut said:
The relationships of all the goods that were needed to make this all work in more just a lab was immense, but she could see the connections, and she felt like a spider sitting at the centre of a web only she could understand the significance of. Combine with her contacts among warriors... yes. Yes, Rulwyna would have the connections and the power to keep herself safe, and beyond that to keep herself comfortable.

That sounds like Admin to me, though the phrasing sounds a bit like Intrigue too. Which would be rather cool.

cogsteeth · Jun 17, 2017

[X] [Prog] Art Patronage (-1 Econ, -2 Wealth, +4 Art, +1 Prestige)
[X] [Refugee] Those who arrive on their own (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] [Value] Hathatyn

veekie · Jun 17, 2017

BungieONI said:
Admin is looking very likely because of this line in the update.

That sounds like Admin to me, though the phrasing sounds a bit like Intrigue too. Which would be rather cool.

Based on our system of government, wouldn't any internal Intrigue BE Admin+Diplo?

Considering understanding how criminals and the corrupt are getting away with exploits and then shutting them down is Admin rolls after all. We use Admin to Enforce Justice correctly and to Restore Order, while we similarly had a Serpent who acted a great deal like a hostile Admin hero in how they chained together plots.

It's all about knowing where all the levers are and how to pull them.

DakkaMania · Jun 17, 2017

Speaking about Stability and possible actions: Have we considered Art Patronage? It seems to involve a lot of quality of life and AN hinted that there is an action we haven't taken that we would have really liked. Art may fit the bill.

It also has the advantage of tweaking the Xohs nose.

And quite frankly, at some point we should take it just to see what it does, even if it is nominally inefficient if we are hounding for stats.

-------------------

That said, I put some thought in how we can domesticate the nomads and get the Stallion Tribes to mellow out in the process.

Specifically, we absorb them culturally. The issue they have is that their memory is all kinds of shit as they seem to lack people that actually record stuff, even if only orally.

So how about sending missionaries? If we convert them to our gods, there is an increased cultural contact and our priests will be authority figures for them that remind them why they don't screw with the Ymaryn.

If there is a Temple with the Stallions, they can even do pilgrimages (and trade while they are there).

If we also found a trading post in the North, they even get an economic basis to support themselves without warring against us.

The hoped for effect of this would be to turn them into steppe Ymaryn. Or at least a unified force that fights off aggressive nomad hordes that want to horn in on the trade.

This should reduce the raids on the Stallions significantly as well as reduce the pressures that cause their worst traits.

BungieONI · Jun 17, 2017

DakkaMania said:
Speaking about Stability and possible actions: Have we considered Art Patronage? It seems to involve a lot of quality of life and AN hinted that there is an action we haven't taken that we would have really liked. Art may fit the bill.

It also has the advantage of tweaking the Xohs nose.

And quite frankly, at some point we should take it just to see what it does, even if it is nominally inefficient if we are hounding for stats.

-------------------

That said, I put some thought in how we can domesticate the nomads and get the Stallion Tribes to mellow out in the process.

Specifically, we absorb them culturally. The issue they have is that their memory is all kinds of shit as they seem to lack people that actually record stuff, even if only orally.

So how about sending missionaries? If we convert them to our gods, there is an increased cultural contact and our priests will be authority figures for them that remind them why they don't screw with the Ymaryn.

If there is a Temple with the Stallions, they can even do pilgrimages (and trade while they are there).

If we also found a trading post in the North, they even get an economic basis to support themselves without warring against us.

The hoped for effect of this would be to turn them into steppe Ymaryn. Or at least a unified force that fights off aggressive nomad hordes that want to horn in on the trade.

This should reduce the raids on the Stallions significantly as well as reduce the pressures that cause their worst traits.

The Art thing is probably not a thing, since we have taken the action before. I think as a main too, though it could only have been a secondary.

Now the Pilgrimage thing for Nomads? That's interesting.

Would take some doing though. For now I think we should stick to the known effective method of the Trade Missions and Salt Gifts pointed at the Nomads from our east. They seem to like it enough that it stuck in their cultural memory.

We do that and build up for the Conversion in the background.

bluefur87 · Jun 17, 2017

BungieONI said:
The Art thing is probably not a thing, since we have taken the action before. I think as a main too, though it could only have been a secondary.

Now the Pilgrimage thing for Nomads? That's interesting.

Would take some doing though. For now I think we should stick to the known effective method of the Trade Missions and Salt Gifts pointed at the Nomads from our east. They seem to like it enough that it stuck in their cultural memory.

We do that and build up for the Conversion in the background.

We took art once as a secondary to get glazed pottery. It fully fits the bill of something interesting, and honestly is close to the only action left that could fill the criteria based on when we heard the statement.

Broccoliccoli · Jun 17, 2017

veekie said:
As long as it's profitable enough for the People, someone will be willing to take the risk due to Honorable Death

When you put it this way it sounds like a hilarious way to evolve honorable death into something that everybody in this thread except that dude with the goat avatar will hate.

veekie · Jun 17, 2017

DakkaMania said:
That said, I put some thought in how we can domesticate the nomads and get the Stallion Tribes to mellow out in the process.

Specifically, we absorb them culturally. The issue they have is that their memory is all kinds of shit as they seem to lack people that actually record stuff, even if only orally.

So how about sending missionaries? If we convert them to our gods, there is an increased cultural contact and our priests will be authority figures for them that remind them why they don't screw with the Ymaryn.

Difficult, since we picked an agricultural god for main. It'd be hard to convey how they are relevant because while Crow touches upon some of their beliefs(likely in the form of the battlecrow, the crows feasting after a battle is iconic), most of our belief system is completely alien to their cultural sphere.

The tending of trees and care of the land The secrets of the world? The sun shines, the storm thunders, the grass grows and the crows feast upon the dead. That's their experience.

Not that missionaries aren't useful(see STs doing one hell of a religious scam to gain control of some tribes), but we hadn't reached the religious tech levels to actually send people out there to promote our faith. Religion's just a thing that happens, and in places, keep secret what's the REAL way to get to the gods.

DakkaMania · Jun 17, 2017

BungieONI said:
The Art thing is probably not a thing, since we have taken the action before. I think as a main too, though it could only have been a secondary.

Now the Pilgrimage thing for Nomads? That's interesting.

Would take some doing though. For now I think we should stick to the known effective method of the Trade Missions and Salt Gifts pointed at the Nomads from our east. They seem to like it enough that it stuck in their cultural memory.

We do that and build up for the Conversion in the background.

Yeah. Economics work best as a start. But in this age, success is often attributed to gods. And quite frankly, if Nomads see our stuff odds are they will consider our gods mighty indeed.

The same should hold for the other settled people as well. I'm very much in favor of spreading our faith as that might act to pre-assimilate refugees that come to us. as they are at least familiar with the religion.

Which also eases annexation as others would be just Ymaryn with strange customs which CA makes us not care about.

Sivantic · Jun 17, 2017

veekie said:
1) Regular pottery works. See the update itself. You can store acid in glazed ceramic containers if you are willing to take the risk that it will be more prone to accidents if there is the slightest crack or flaw. As such, you can make vitriol based dye using glazed pots, they will just occasionally leak some nasty substances onto the people working with them or burn down the place. As long as it's profitable enough for the People, someone will be willing to take the risk due to Honorable Death

2) The new dyes are made using acids to treat or catalyze various substances. Most of these are sulfur salts of metals, which you can form by mixing metal containing rock or ash(including metals we are not currently capable of smelting) with strong sulfuric acid to form a redox reaction that leaches them out of the material. You can only make them using vitriol. The Glassworks promotion focuses the dye discovery on how glass is the safe way to contain the reagents, while the Art Patronage promotion focuses the dye discovery on how you can use these new colors.

3) It's an incentivized behavior. Simply consider the local Potters optimum of the Dyers having an increased demand for glazed pottery, then the Glassmakers completely displace them from the dye market. It would not make any sense for the Potters to take it without trying to shut down a threat to their trade dominance.

:lol

Wow veekie are you serious? You were just arguing that it is not working as we can see that it is eating through the pottery. People are not going to just shrug their shoulders when there is a clear answer to this problem.

Glass isn't the next stage after pottery veekie. This wouldn't cause anything of the sort as glassware would still be niche use. Alchemy was barely discovered a generation ago, there would barely be any production for it yet. Yet you keep acting as if this is life threatening to the potters. It isn't, veekie, that was just a double crit fail

Ghostdevil · Jun 17, 2017

veekie said:
Difficult, since we picked an agricultural god for main. It'd be hard to convey how they are relevant because while Crow touches upon some of their beliefs(likely in the form of the battlecrow, the crows feasting after a battle is iconic), most of our belief system is completely alien to their cultural sphere.

Not that missionaries aren't useful(see STs doing one hell of a religious scam to gain control of some tribes), but we hadn't reached the religious tech levels to actually send people out there to promote our faith. Religion's just a thing that happens, and in places, keep secret what's the REAL way to get to the gods.

Just means we need to develop theology more
We shall convert all to the might of the One True Goddess (oh and I guess Crow to)

DakkaMania · Jun 17, 2017

veekie said:
Difficult, since we picked an agricultural god for main. It'd be hard to convey how they are relevant because while Crow touches upon some of their beliefs(likely in the form of the battlecrow, the crows feasting after a battle is iconic), most of our belief system is completely alien to their cultural sphere.

The tending of trees and care of the land The secrets of the world? The sun shines, the storm thunders, the grass grows and the crows feast upon the dead. That's their experience.

Not that missionaries aren't useful(see STs doing one hell of a religious scam to gain control of some tribes), but we hadn't reached the religious tech levels to actually send people out there to promote our faith. Religion's just a thing that happens, and in places, keep secret what's the REAL way to get to the gods.

What about our Carrion Eaters? With our tech they should be quite useful to nomads and the medicine man is usually highly respected. And in our case, feared.

Our holy men also have a lot of technical knowledge, which would be of interest to nomads as the Priests are actually useful to the tribe.

veekie · Jun 17, 2017

Sivantic said:
:lol

Wow veekie are you serious? You were just arguing that it is not working as we can see that it is eating through the pottery. People are not going to just shrug their shoulders when there is a clear answer to this problem.

Glass isn't the next stage after pottery veekie. This wouldn't cause anything of the sort as glassware would still be niche use. Alchemy was barely discovered a generation ago, there would barely be any production for it yet. Yet you keep acting as if this is life threatening to the potters. It isn't, veekie, that was just a double crit fail

Absolutely serious. The corrosive effect is slow enough that Lolwyna didn't realize there was a problem with her project, and Rulwyna only realized what happened with detailed study. You could use pottery containers just fine if you changed them regularly or used heavily glazed ones.

Dye production is a major, lucrative trade.
The ones who supply containers for them would in turn benefit from the prestige and the valuation, being displaced in this market is going to go about as well as being pushed from Dominant to Leading for the affected party. Yes, Glass is not going to be replacing ALL pottery, but replacing pottery within one trade is a major loss to the political power of the Potters, AFTER giving them more political power by making the Dyers have a high demand for pots first.

As such, it is more in line with our established practices to do it right, make it safe THEN promote it, rather than going ahead with popularization without the safety material.

veekie · Jun 17, 2017

DakkaMania said:
What about our Carrion Eaters? With our tech they should be quite useful to nomads and the medicine man is usually highly respected. And in our case, feared.

Our holy men also have a lot of technical knowledge, which would be of interest to nomads as the Priests are actually useful to the tribe.

Unless we start seconding our elite units to Nomads, that's not going to be relevant?

Guile · Jun 17, 2017

BungieONI said:
If you want to take the certainty of a fiasco to get a benefit out of it for the People, you know what I respect you for considering the situation and deciding not to be scared!
That whole business evolved our Justice trait actually so there is merit to triggering one.

We only avoided war by the skin of our teeth thanks to Swift action lucky rolls and I think a heroic King?

But that's no reason not to court war with the lowlands a second time right.

Candesce · Jun 17, 2017

[X] [Prog] Build Glassworks (-1 Econ, +2 Art, increased chance of new innovations)
[X] [Refugee] Those who arrive on their own (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] [Value] Hathatyn

Sivantic · Jun 17, 2017

veekie said:
Absolutely serious. The corrosive effect is slow enough that Lolwyna didn't realize there was a problem with her project, and Rulwyna only realized what happened with detailed study. You could use pottery containers just fine if you changed them regularly or used heavily glazed ones.

Dye production is a major, lucrative trade.
The ones who supply containers for them would in turn benefit from the prestige and the valuation, being displaced in this market is going to go about as well as being pushed from Dominant to Leading for the affected party. Yes, Glass is not going to be replacing ALL pottery, but replacing pottery within one trade is a major loss to the political power of the Potters, AFTER giving them more political power by making the Dyers have a high demand for pots first.

Which means glass work isn't immediately necessary then. Safe practices can already be put in place.

Except not all dye requires alchemical process. Our Snail Dye would still be our most used and requires nothing special to contain. This would work as a supplement to existing dyes, not a replacement. As such there would be zero need to suddenly replace all our dye pots with glass.

Edit: You just gave a method of safe practice veekie.

BungieONI · Jun 17, 2017

Guile said:
We only avoided war by the skin of our teeth thanks to Swift action lucky rolls and I think a heroic King?

But that's no reason not to court war with the lowlands a second time right.

I can respect someone for sticking to their guns who responds politely when faced with valid criticism without agreeing with their action.

That's all that happened there.

Romv · Jun 17, 2017

I have come up with a plan for the next turns ... (unless something explodes of course)
Next turn we go full Stability party.
The turn after that we start the Palace and build a temple.
After that we build more temples, trails and boats while the Palace gets built and Balanced policy gets us to a Golden age.

Guile · Jun 17, 2017

DakkaMania said:
Speaking about Stability and possible actions: Have we considered Art Patronage? It seems to involve a lot of quality of life and AN hinted that there is an action we haven't taken that we would have really liked. Art may fit the bill.

It also has the advantage of tweaking the Xohs nose.

And quite frankly, at some point we should take it just to see what it does, even if it is nominally inefficient if we are hounding for stats.

It would combine very well with a push for temples, since each temple is only one Main, 4 econ and 4 art. We have tons of econ right now but very low art.

BungieONI · Jun 17, 2017

Romv said:
I have come up with a plan for the next turns ... (unless something explodes of course)
Next turn we go full Stability party.
The turn after that we start the Palace and build a temple.
After that we build more temples, trails and boats while the Palace gets built and Balanced policy gets us to a Golden age.

Well it's simple enough it can't really go majorly wrong unless we have a Waaagh again. I don't agree on the full stability party, because I don't think it is necessary.

Depending on how our traits are going to change next update I think we will need to re-evaluate how we use our available stability options. My hope is that we can free up a secondary or two to do some house keeping or other actions that we have neglected.

The next two turns though are something I can support.

Glassware · Jun 17, 2017

Yeah, a big part of voting for Art Patronage is because we have to Main it sometime, you know?

BungieONI · Jun 17, 2017

Oh! *snaps fingers*

Other thing we have to be aware of is the massive shift in action costs and that we may even be getting entirely new actions with Wealth now a thing.

Paths of Civilization

Seven gremlins in a trench coat

Seven gremlins in a trench coat

The Devil of Ghosts

Having a really great time right now

Seven gremlins in a trench coat

A Memory of TREES

Having a really great time right now

Seven gremlins in a trench coat

Seven gremlins in a trench coat