Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
- Pronouns
- He/Him
That was actually (one of) the point(s) i was going for, yeah
Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] [Library] Sacred Forest
[X] [Temple] Let the glory of your gods be known far and wide (+1 Prestige, Pilgrimage trade power increased)
[X] [Corruption] Deploy force
[X] [Diplo] Send aid to the Metal Workers (-2 Diplo, -2 Econ, -2 Art, -2 Mysticism)
[X] [Policy] No change
[X] [Temple] Let the glory of your gods be known far and wide (+1 Prestige, Pilgrimage trade power increased)
[X] [Corruption] Deploy force
[X] [Diplo] Send aid to the Metal Workers (-2 Diplo, -2 Econ, -2 Art, -2 Mysticism)
[X] [Policy] No change
I mean, they're also going to be bringing their technological discoveries to us. This is a re-enforcing cycle. Where did I get this idea? Sacred Forest Temple. Hey, I, a person who values knowledge and innovation want to go there and learn stuff too!
Person travels to Sacred Forest Temple, learns stuff and eagerly talks about things they know along the way. Sacred Forest Temple gains more knowledge. Cycle repeats.
By putting the library in a place of spiritual pilgrimage, combined with our love of wisdom trait, we're honestly creating a proto-academy. Cycling people far and wide starts making us considered the cultural and knowledge center of the known world. That's kind of a big deal.
Granted, we will have some competition, but this pushes our influence to immense levels, and if we're going to continue our policy of not starting wars if we can help it, it's vital we have strong influence.
Side note. If we have horse racing in The Games, there's a pretty good possibility of us more actively breeding faster horses. This sounds pretty neat to me when we finally get around to it.
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It is a good argument....but you're missing the forest for the trees. It isn't just about the religion. It is also about the culture spread. That is something that can never be underestimated and should be started early. I will point that even at our current level of non-intervention, we managed to make the HK create their own version of The Law....just by how terrified they are from (HK's perspective) the stone geas.
To use a real life example of the power of culture and religious spread, let's talk about some parts of the history of my country. Back then, before Indonesia came to be, one of the major theories how the Hindu and Buddhist came to Indonesia was because of something known as a Flowback Theory. In which people from Indonesia, or what will be Indonesia, flock into India, learn the culture there, before spreading it back in their homeland. The effect?
- Before Islam came, the two were the religions held in most of the islands that will make up the country.
- The largest Buddhist temple compound is located in Indonesia.
- The largest non-official language in the world (Javanese Language) has its roots of Sanskrit script.
- Most of the traditional art practices put in place now has its roots or theorised having its roots from existing Indian ones like shadow puppetry, music, and poems.
- After Islam came, the method of conversion had to be done by the way of aculturizing the previously existing cultures because of how entrenched they are in the society.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
Untamed steppe, not untamed forested mountains with minimal grass forage for their herds.
@bluefur87 its true that it might bring academics to us. It risks the loss of our own knowledge, however. And it is possible that external knowledge will not be sufficiently dense to make up for this loss.
- Location
- Mists of Albion
Iron was listed as one of the possible causes for the Bronze Age Collapse.....
Let's watch the world burn
We have, for a long time, been draining the surrounding the region of reasonable people with our CA and LoO trait. As a result, we get constant warfare as unreasonable people get left behind. This means even more war.
So, it's about time that we start the program of the domestication of mankind outside of our border.
Yes, this benefit them, but do you honestly want Not!WW2 and the atomic race and all that entails?
So, it's about time that we start the program of the domestication of mankind outside of our border.
Yes, this benefit them, but do you honestly want Not!WW2 and the atomic race and all that entails?
Domesticate mankind... what a positively elvish sentiment.
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- Location
- USA
Ok, with the current choices that are winning, we'll have the following stats before we make our action choices next turn - note I'm presuming the Hero is dead by next turn or that we'll at least have action control:
5[+4] Diplomacy
2[-1] Econ
4{5} Martial
8 Econ Expansion (assuming True City procs for the econ we're sending the MWs)
7 or 10 Art (too close to call currently)
7 Mysticism
Now we don't know at this time how many Library actions we've even taken (probably 3 according to @Abby Normal 's calculation), much less how many more we'll need to complete it (4 to 6 is the total), and thus no idea how many actions the provinces will spend on Megaprojects next turn. But for simplicity I'm going to assume that they do 3 main megaproject support actions next turn. Without considering our own actions, that would leave us during the next midturn at:
5+4 (Bonuses paying out) = 9 Diplo
2 -1 (True City) - 2 (Library costs 2 total Econ, it doesn't seem from @Abby Normal 's calculation that this has been factored in yet) +4 (baby boom) = 3 Econ. Most important thing to note here - if True City and Library costs come BEFORE baby boom, we go to negative econ for a bit. That's rather concerning, but not much we can do about it given the current vote.
4{5} Martial
8 -4 (baby boom) = 4 Econ Expansion
7 or 10 -3 = 4 or 7 Art
7-3 = 4 Mysticism.
Getting rather low on Econ, Econ slots, and Martial considering we're probably heading into a war with the Nomads. These therefore should be our main focus. We're too low on Econ to do ANY actions that cost Econ, in my opinion. Too much of a chance to dip into negative Econ if costs come before Baby boom. That rules out most actions that add Martial, but we have 3 Mysticism to spare before the lack of Mysticism changes anything the provinces do, so Secondary Carrion Eaters and/or Secondary Blackbirds are very possible.
So if the nomads are bearing down on us and we need to go all out on a war mission, my thought is we should do:
[Main] War Mission
[Secondary] More Carrion Eaters
[Secondary] More Blackbirds
If the nomads seem to be easily dealt with by the ST and we only need a secondary war mission, I would go for:
[Main] Black Soil
[Secondary] War Mission
[Secondary] More Carrion Eaters (which seem to be better in a nomad war on the plains than Blackbirds)
If no War Mission at all is needed, the nomads are attacking far away or are procrastinating mightily, instead:
[Main] Black Soil
[Secondary] More Carrion Eaters
[Secondary] More Blackbirds
Why Black Soil in these last two options? Well Forests and Boats cost Econ in the short term, and I'm not voting for things that cost Econ. To generate Econ then, we're limited to Black Soil, New Settlements, and Expand Econ.
The problem with Expand Econ is that we're also going to be getting low on Econ slots, and Expanding Econ here could potentially end our Baby boom now or in the near future.
The problem with New Settlements is that it takes time for their Econ to pay out, we could use Econ quicker than that to avoid a temporary negative Econ, and finally the New Settlement locations could be hit by nomads (Blackriver and Eastern Hills), so that seems like a bad idea.
Black Soil, as a main, costs no Econ and provides an immediate +1 Econ, at no cost in Econ slots. I am in fact quite hopeful that it will increase our Econ slots - we honestly have no idea if it does, the last time we took it was when we were doing the Sacred Forest megaproject, ie well before we had Econ slot information. But narratively it would make sense to me that more black soil would lead to more marginal farming areas being able to farm more.
5[+4] Diplomacy
2[-1] Econ
4{5} Martial
8 Econ Expansion (assuming True City procs for the econ we're sending the MWs)
7 or 10 Art (too close to call currently)
7 Mysticism
Now we don't know at this time how many Library actions we've even taken (probably 3 according to @Abby Normal 's calculation), much less how many more we'll need to complete it (4 to 6 is the total), and thus no idea how many actions the provinces will spend on Megaprojects next turn. But for simplicity I'm going to assume that they do 3 main megaproject support actions next turn. Without considering our own actions, that would leave us during the next midturn at:
5+4 (Bonuses paying out) = 9 Diplo
2 -1 (True City) - 2 (Library costs 2 total Econ, it doesn't seem from @Abby Normal 's calculation that this has been factored in yet) +4 (baby boom) = 3 Econ. Most important thing to note here - if True City and Library costs come BEFORE baby boom, we go to negative econ for a bit. That's rather concerning, but not much we can do about it given the current vote.
4{5} Martial
8 -4 (baby boom) = 4 Econ Expansion
7 or 10 -3 = 4 or 7 Art
7-3 = 4 Mysticism.
Getting rather low on Econ, Econ slots, and Martial considering we're probably heading into a war with the Nomads. These therefore should be our main focus. We're too low on Econ to do ANY actions that cost Econ, in my opinion. Too much of a chance to dip into negative Econ if costs come before Baby boom. That rules out most actions that add Martial, but we have 3 Mysticism to spare before the lack of Mysticism changes anything the provinces do, so Secondary Carrion Eaters and/or Secondary Blackbirds are very possible.
So if the nomads are bearing down on us and we need to go all out on a war mission, my thought is we should do:
[Main] War Mission
[Secondary] More Carrion Eaters
[Secondary] More Blackbirds
If the nomads seem to be easily dealt with by the ST and we only need a secondary war mission, I would go for:
[Main] Black Soil
[Secondary] War Mission
[Secondary] More Carrion Eaters (which seem to be better in a nomad war on the plains than Blackbirds)
If no War Mission at all is needed, the nomads are attacking far away or are procrastinating mightily, instead:
[Main] Black Soil
[Secondary] More Carrion Eaters
[Secondary] More Blackbirds
Why Black Soil in these last two options? Well Forests and Boats cost Econ in the short term, and I'm not voting for things that cost Econ. To generate Econ then, we're limited to Black Soil, New Settlements, and Expand Econ.
The problem with Expand Econ is that we're also going to be getting low on Econ slots, and Expanding Econ here could potentially end our Baby boom now or in the near future.
The problem with New Settlements is that it takes time for their Econ to pay out, we could use Econ quicker than that to avoid a temporary negative Econ, and finally the New Settlement locations could be hit by nomads (Blackriver and Eastern Hills), so that seems like a bad idea.
Black Soil, as a main, costs no Econ and provides an immediate +1 Econ, at no cost in Econ slots. I am in fact quite hopeful that it will increase our Econ slots - we honestly have no idea if it does, the last time we took it was when we were doing the Sacred Forest megaproject, ie well before we had Econ slot information. But narratively it would make sense to me that more black soil would lead to more marginal farming areas being able to farm more.
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maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
Uh, no. Let's become incredibly powerful and start the Age of the Ymmrin Iron Expansion.
Abby Normal
High Clerk of the Ymaryn
- Pronouns
- He/Him
i just had a thought...people have suggested we might end up with the Metal Workers as a vassal if we're really lucky. If so...i really really hope we get the choice to not immediately share iron secrets with them D=
Steve Pinker said there are five historical forces that is driving the decline in violence.
* The Levitatan: Guess what? We are the biggest and the most stable polity with a sophisicated notion of justice.
* Commerce: We're getting really good at this boat building and trading things.
* Feminization: We got traits that slow patriarchy down, but we can't really do anything about it without the necessary toolkit.
* Cosmopolitanism: Trading and pilgrimage as well our CA is really driving this home.
* The Escalator of Reason: Beginning of a proto-academy with library next turn. Love of Wisdom trait.
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maximillian
Civilised Sheep
- Location
- Ranch
A selection of these points are a door to unending debate, arguments and enough salt to start a sardine cannerey. And my phone battery is almost dead and am about to go to bed, so I'll leave it at that. Until tomorrow at least. Unless it's too off topic.
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[X] [Library] Sacred Forest
[X] [Temple] Let the glory of your gods be known far and wide (+1 Prestige, Pilgrimage trade power increased)
[X] [Corruption] Deploy force
[X] [Diplo] Send aid to the Metal Workers (-2 Diplo, -2 Econ, -2 Art, -2 Mysticism)
[X] [Policy] No change
I wonder if the Nomads might consider us too hard a target and will strike at the Thunder Speakers as those are relatively undefended.
[X] [Temple] Let the glory of your gods be known far and wide (+1 Prestige, Pilgrimage trade power increased)
[X] [Corruption] Deploy force
[X] [Diplo] Send aid to the Metal Workers (-2 Diplo, -2 Econ, -2 Art, -2 Mysticism)
[X] [Policy] No change
I wonder if the Nomads might consider us too hard a target and will strike at the Thunder Speakers as those are relatively undefended.
I literally put in what the last thing I read was... I quoted page and post number. I did that to provide context. Strange how the first response I get is 'How dare you not read every post, before posting.' So yes. That response was an exercise is missing the point.
Let me put it this way. You have just argued that the prestige option is useless for spreading the religion. That means the temple is a tourist attraction, instead of a 'just' religious site of greatness. A temple with a giant library (repository of knowledge) attached to it. As a tourist site people are going to take home souvenirs. This is what tourists do. The best souvenirs available are made of tech advancements. So that option is all about attracting tech harvesters. The more you don't want them to have a tech, the more a tech harvester wants it. Thus the downside is tech thieves are attracted along with the gawkers.
Now the counter is that you can charge them knowledge for knowledge. However, that best comes later when everything gained is written down out of habit and scrolls/paper are available. Currently, its a matter get an art tech upgrade and let them come and join the learning center later or... advertise you set up a site to get knowledge from for bragging rights. Bragging rights are for extrovert Civs not introvert Civs like The People.
This is a matter of what kind of tourists your attracting. One comes on their own, the other comes to the siren call of 'free stuff/free tech'.
I believe its easier for me to point out I didn't know or care what the current bandwagon was, as I stopped at a point the posts where at half a day ago... I gave up on reading the entire way though the thread as I couldn't take the then stated arguments. What is happening then is why I was frustrated and gave up on that trek. I gave the very post I gave up first thing in that post.
At that point I skipped to doing my option evaluation post. The contents between those two posts were unread... as I was explaining in that post. Apparently literally listing when I stopped reading the thread is not clear enough.
Does this help on understanding why I didn't bother with the current tally before posting? It was irrelevant to the evaluation.
That wasn't rage. I'm not sure why you think that was near the level of rage. Yes, it was a bit disgruntled... for the reasons of what I was reading 500ish posts ago.
The problem is advertising it like the prestige option does is it attracts the wrong sort. Also, is all braggy and The People aren't extroverts enough to do that for kicks. Note we have had exactly one tech trade so far and that was farming tech. Early on we even gave out farming tech. Also, the knowledge trade doesn't really kick off until paper or scrolls come into play and we can assign stenographers to record conversations. Once we start making copies for other libraries we'll get a number system beyond tally marks invented. Nothing wastes time and space quite like big numbers that take up entire tablets to mean 103.
Also boats. Remember that most of the neighbor don't have sea access... do to lack of seas. Also, lots of cultural notes. Stagnant, authoritarian governments don't lead to large innovations there. The People are suffering from lots and lots of idea others never got to. The cultural techs of the are different than everyone else's. Like the level of difference that causes revolutions. I seriously think that your underestimating the tech levels all around. The government tech trees alone are all over the place.
That is the thing. I'm not underestimating the culture spread. I think others are vastly underestimating how many techs The People are ahead or at least divergent from everyone else. Lets make a partial list:
-Forestry. The ability to replant and spread forests on purpose. Sustainable forestry. Unlimited wood is not common that we have seen.
-Aqueducts--- I've seen no sign of this elsewhere.
-Boats for sea travel. Largely due to lack of sea access.
-Trading posts. The People should have had someone trying to set one of these up considering how rich they are comparatively.
-iron techs.
-Black soil.
-The Sacred Herds that invalidate small pox.
-Blackbirds. Outside of that messed up diplo-invasion thing we haven't seen signs of black ops troops.
-Sanitation and True Cities. Only the Xoh have a True city we know of and its rather gross.
-Testing assumptions.
-Multi-story architecture.
-Lined tailings pits.
-Massed archery units.
-The Arch
-etc... etc...
Now this could be that introverted trait... but I've not seen this stuff from other Civs. My point is that The People have all kinds of stuff other don't before you hit the weird cultural ideas. Until The People have better writing techs (post library at least) we won't be able to record the incoming as well.
Basically, the infrastructure isn't to the point you ca really take advantage of things yet... but it is to the point other people can draw off tech upgrades. A hell of a lot of stuff people think of as basic tech and dirt simple is mind blowing to the indoctrinated. Remember what a mess of things they made when they blew off the cholera cure a generation or two later? Them stealing half a tech (the hows and not the whys) can have horrific results. Its easier to blame the guys you stole it from or demand the rest of the pieces once you have a few than to take the blame for screwing things up for bad tech theft.
No. Build up the university setting this temple wants to be and then the scholars will come to you on their own. Get a system established or a while and then try to bring in the other Civs. Make a place for foreign scholars to end up. Making it yet another reason to immigrate to The People. Don't make it a magnet for spies and a target for the jealous.
- Location
- Simi Valley, CA, United States
I'm hesitant of "deploy force" due to the precedent it sets. If it goes well - great (though it sets the precedent of the king just up and killing you if corrupt) but if it goes badly it may risk a civil crisis that it'll take at least the next successor to clear up.
Oh, and another pro for the pilgrimage - if we're lucky our new allies will go on it and it + the Salt Gift will solidify our alliance.
Oh, and another pro for the pilgrimage - if we're lucky our new allies will go on it and it + the Salt Gift will solidify our alliance.
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- Location
- Source of confusion itself.
How dare you?! It's our culture to watch the world burn and it's our sacred duty to put it to the torch, whenever the flames go out! You heretic!
And I think many are fine with it. Not all techs in the list can be easily taken and those that do, in the case of forest management, Black Soil, sanitation, and the like are something worthwhile to spread. It increases the quality of life and environmental and Crow knows how important that is in this era. Especially if we are going to mitigate the Bronze Age Collapse.
At this point, neither aspect of our arguments can be taken in a vacuum. The culture will mix with the religion and vice versa. Tech-stealing will mix with tolerance and Strong Opinions on Environments. So.....agree to politely disagree?
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
Actually, we're arguing that our religion doesn't offer any particular advantages in regards to the discovery of science unless they adopt those of our spiritual traits which offer an advantage in regards to the discovery of science. In such a case they'll have to deal with all of the flaws, which they're unlikely to be prepared for.
The best religious souvenirs available are made of art tech, so they'll be harvesting art tech.
More important than souvenirs is that they'll see how we build things, how we organize things, etc. These administrative and engineering techs are far more impactful.
E: My point that you're oblivious about current events, salty about past ones, and felt the need to announce this still stands. Don't be negative to express your negativity, be negative to change what you're negative about. Or be positive to change what you're negative about.
Step 1: Keep our secrets
Step 2: Watch other people set themselves on fire
Step 3: Allow them to join us
Step 4: ???
Step 5: Repeat
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- Location
- Australia
[X] [Library] Sacred Forest
[X] [Temple] See to the spread of the techniques that went into making this place (+3 art, tech advance)
[X] [Corruption] Deploy force
[X] [Diplo] Send aid to the Metal Workers (-2 Diplo, -2 Econ, -2 Art, -2 Mysticism)
[X] [Policy] No change
We can increase pilgrimage another time. Right now, I want the spreading of technology because we're currently dealing with people who are suppressing technological growth, and this might make it easier to identify them.
[X] [Temple] See to the spread of the techniques that went into making this place (+3 art, tech advance)
[X] [Corruption] Deploy force
[X] [Diplo] Send aid to the Metal Workers (-2 Diplo, -2 Econ, -2 Art, -2 Mysticism)
[X] [Policy] No change
We can increase pilgrimage another time. Right now, I want the spreading of technology because we're currently dealing with people who are suppressing technological growth, and this might make it easier to identify them.
Defence doesn't increase Martial.
Great Temple gives +1 Art because of Stone Age Canal.
They also had several thousand years to develop their religion.
- Location
- Staring into the void
We can have both the tech now, and the cultural expansion. When the library is finished we're going to get a prestige boost. When we beat the nomads (again) we'll get a boost. We're already at moderate for pilgrimage.
Umi-san
Procrastinating.
- Location
- ꙮ
Administration
Basic Administrative Math (probably widespread)
Chariot Couriers (maybe owned by TH, but otherwise??)
Memory (lol)
Early Writing (Mixed Logo-/Phonographic) (Spread to the WC, possibly went past that)
Non-Local Authority ("new"-ish in TH but strong; inherent in HK; debatable in current XS)
Primitive Indexing (only us)
Written Laws (HK)
Construction
Arch (only us)
Wood (we're better than other people but still... orange for managed forests)
Masonry (eh... XS, TH, maybe HK)
Early City Walls (XS and TH likely better)
Energy Production
Muscle Power (lol)
Animal Power (lol?)
Food Production
Chinampas (XS)
Fishing (... well, river fishing for other people. Sea fishing for HT)
Horse Milling (?)
Mollusc Cultivation (HT?)
Orchards (... possibly only us and the HT...)
Ox-pulled plough (?)
Step Farming (XS)
Terra Preta (only us)
Materials
Well Dressed Stone (only us, was dependent on iron? copper?)
Ash glazed pottery (XS)
Bronze (lol)
Early iron bloomeries (only us)
Medicine
Acupuncture/pressure (only us)
Ancient human anatomy (XS)
Empirical primitive sanitary theory (only us)
Herbalism (lol)
Hospice care (only us)
Oral rehydration therapy (everyone)
Ritual cowpox inoculation (only us)
Spiritualism (lol)
Science
Ancestral Heroes (only us..???)
Polytheism (everyone we know)
Astrology (us and maybe the TS, XS)
Tested Observation (only us?)
Transportation
Animal Husbandry (lol)
Gravel Roads (only us)
Spoked Wheel Vehicles (us; nomads; maybe TH)
Watercraft
Great Canoes (us, HT, maybe XS)
Major docks (only us)
Portagable Sailboats (only us)
Basic Administrative Math (probably widespread)
Chariot Couriers (maybe owned by TH, but otherwise??)
Memory (lol)
Early Writing (Mixed Logo-/Phonographic) (Spread to the WC, possibly went past that)
Non-Local Authority ("new"-ish in TH but strong; inherent in HK; debatable in current XS)
Primitive Indexing (only us)
Written Laws (HK)
Construction
Arch (only us)
Wood (we're better than other people but still... orange for managed forests)
Masonry (eh... XS, TH, maybe HK)
Early City Walls (XS and TH likely better)
Energy Production
Muscle Power (lol)
Animal Power (lol?)
Food Production
Chinampas (XS)
Fishing (... well, river fishing for other people. Sea fishing for HT)
Horse Milling (?)
Mollusc Cultivation (HT?)
Orchards (... possibly only us and the HT...)
Ox-pulled plough (?)
Step Farming (XS)
Terra Preta (only us)
Materials
Well Dressed Stone (only us, was dependent on iron? copper?)
Ash glazed pottery (XS)
Bronze (lol)
Early iron bloomeries (only us)
Medicine
Acupuncture/pressure (only us)
Ancient human anatomy (XS)
Empirical primitive sanitary theory (only us)
Herbalism (lol)
Hospice care (only us)
Oral rehydration therapy (everyone)
Ritual cowpox inoculation (only us)
Spiritualism (lol)
Science
Ancestral Heroes (only us..???)
Polytheism (everyone we know)
Astrology (us and maybe the TS, XS)
Tested Observation (only us?)
Transportation
Animal Husbandry (lol)
Gravel Roads (only us)
Spoked Wheel Vehicles (us; nomads; maybe TH)
Watercraft
Great Canoes (us, HT, maybe XS)
Major docks (only us)
Portagable Sailboats (only us)
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VoidZero
Passing Flan 布丁魔王
- Location
- Anywhere but RL
I wasn't able to recall a term that accurately describes the group, as corporate is too early and guild is too late.
So industrial as sort of in-between.
As long as the idea is not too mangled with poor word choice.