Paths of Civilization
- Thread starter Academia Nut
- Start date
- Original
Clarification: Heir gets to apply their Heroic bonuses to the state. The Heir is with the King for all important decisions and part of the role is to help make decisions while there is an experienced King in charge.
Yes. Here's the thing:
-Portability - Priority on ship construction technique. Ruggedness and strength to weight ratio are the priorities here, which means jointing techniques and other carpentry oriented developments. Ships which can take a beating and keep going, which can be moved by cart or crane without falling apart. Scales up just fine, if expensively.
-Size - Priority on keel. Large single piece timbers for the spine. Even timbers for the horizontal supports, which means logging big trees and measurement techniques. Does NOT scale down at all.
-Speed - Priority on shape. Long slim designs for cutting through water, tall and numerous masts to catch as much wind as possible, possibly going into oars for ramming in close combat. Scales up poorly, slim designs and lots of room don't align well.
Uh...our river network is more comprehensive than our road network, and dams reward portable ships even more.
Our civilization is built on the backs of three major rivers.
Outright false.
That too, Size has no benefit now due to lacking docks to use them with. All designs benefit from more docks and we do have something like 5 slots left for coastal docks in capitals.
Started out not minding which won(since size is perfectly fine), but the spurious arguments being used are really getting to me.
...China developed riverine ships first.
The compartmentalized design is a Portable->Size route, they scaled up a rugged modular design suited for rivers to a shallow draft large design, then just kept scaling up.
A Size first design is the trireme route.
A Speed first design is what you start with if you are thinking Age Of Sail vessels.
- Location
- Inner Sol System
I'd guess not that willing.
[X][CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Heroic Diplo-Admin geographic administration reform
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Salt gift
Whew, so after having caught myself up on the thread, I have to say that I'm very pleased with where we stand. I argue that Plan Lailoken allows us to greatly capitalize on our current standing. We are at the precipice of being able to utterly dominate the region. Taking more territory and killing our enemies with kindness will allow us to expand and still come off as humanitarian good guys. Taking size for boats gives us a greater capacity for trade and will maybe allow us to send some of our ships on a far-scouting mission to see if this sea is inland or not. Right now, we know remarkably little about the area beyond our immediate neighbors. Portability boats aren't terribly useful for capitalizing on our more mercantile tendencies, so I argue in favor of size if only so we can maybe capitalize on having assimilated the only major seafaring power we know of. In the best case scenario, we end up effectively dominating the sea near us.
- Location
- Asia
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Salt Gift
Bigger boats mean our provinces have incentive to build docks. Plus it might help push the development of navigation too.
Bigger boats help with logistics, something that's a constant issue whenever we need to reinforce one of our marches quickly.
Plus there is a very good chance that the Hathatyn already have portable boats, considering they live in an riverine area. So we should be getting that tech from them when we annex the Hathatyn villages next turn.
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Salt Gift
Bigger boats mean our provinces have incentive to build docks. Plus it might help push the development of navigation too.
Bigger boats help with logistics, something that's a constant issue whenever we need to reinforce one of our marches quickly.
Plus there is a very good chance that the Hathatyn already have portable boats, considering they live in an riverine area. So we should be getting that tech from them when we annex the Hathatyn villages next turn.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
This is actually a good point.
Makes me even happier that either of size or portability could win. Either way that tech stealing possibility turns out, I'll probably be happy with the boat vote.
This has been proven false for the short term. Portability is better for trade and logistics because it gives easier access to towns not directly on the sea. Size is better for bulk shipping if both sides have docks, but is not as good otherwise due to the difficulty in loading/unloading to the shore.
Size is better long-term, but it seems almost certain that we'll be able to get another upgrade by the time we'd actually be in a good position to use them effectively.
Honestly I think this would actually be a good tie result. Having some portable ships and some bigger ones means diversification and more opportunities for innovation. It'd be interesting to see how it's evaluated at least.
BungieONI
Seven gremlins in a trench coat
- Location
- Lickwidget
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Pls no. I don't want the stress and don't want to stress our Fictional Universe's Creator Force (AN) more. It'd be nice if it worked but... *wide eyed and dead stare into tankard of strong drink*
Guile
Having a really great time right now
I'm assuming my vote is dropping into a well given the land grab is up some 50+ votes last I checked, but what the hell.
[X] [CA] Accept those who come to the People (Chance of Stability loss, +2 Econ)
[x] [Law] Have the law favour lumping
[x] [Boats] Size
[x] [Infra] Main Expand Snail Cultivation
I'd rather aim for the Golden Age, dominate trade, connect all our provinces with roads, and so on rather than go for a land grab. The Hathatyn are a lot stronger than we like to give them credit for; those little boat skirmishes we've been having were with their frontiersmen, not any of their stronger kingdoms.
Also, much as I like salt, getting a chance to innovate on snails is pretty solid and if we're not going the land grab route it should be fine economically.
[X] [CA] Accept those who come to the People (Chance of Stability loss, +2 Econ)
[x] [Law] Have the law favour lumping
[x] [Boats] Size
[x] [Infra] Main Expand Snail Cultivation
I'd rather aim for the Golden Age, dominate trade, connect all our provinces with roads, and so on rather than go for a land grab. The Hathatyn are a lot stronger than we like to give them credit for; those little boat skirmishes we've been having were with their frontiersmen, not any of their stronger kingdoms.
Also, much as I like salt, getting a chance to innovate on snails is pretty solid and if we're not going the land grab route it should be fine economically.
Trade Post burns 2 martial.
If he didn't want ties he shouldn't've rewarded us for the last one. My evaluation of the expected downsides of a tie vote has been radically decreased. I am currently evaluating it at a 50% chance of a stability drop, in exchange for getting the benefits of both votes. (For the non-action votes at least. I don't dare try tying an action vote right now).
There's also the chance that we get half the benefits of each. That's fine IMO since having a split in boat types is actually pretty useful, even if it's a bit of a logistical headache.
Strong enough to take a 8-10 econ hit on top of a natural disaster and somehow come out able to fight our overflowing martial and tech advantage? Really not seeing it.
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Wouldn't it also make sense? One type for ocean trade, one type for rivers?
- Location
- Asia
Everyone and their dog is gonna have tiny ass canoes to carry around. We could just steal the tech from someone.
This is the best time to go for size since we have already invented docks.
This is the best time to go for size since we have already invented docks.
Guile
Having a really great time right now
Why are people picking all the most stability-damaging options? Do you want to start a war at 0 stab? Because that's how you start a war at 0 stab.
It's a few settlements. If they're about the size of the People, they should be able to eat a few losses there and still fight back.
How many times in our history were we able to casually eat a 8 to 10 drop in econ at negative stability? And even if they do fight back all that would do is eat into out unconformable high martial.
- Location
- Asia
Did we see any definite proof that they are big ?
- Location
- Inner Sol System
I would agree with your assessment of their strength if they weren't in the process of a complete collapse. I dearly doubt an easier opportunity to seize them will come along anytime soon, so we may as well take the low hanging fruit before it rots.
Guile
Having a really great time right now
I'm just saying that the 8-10 econ listed and 'a few villages' don't really gel in my mind. We wouldn't lose 8-10 econ if we lost a couple villages.
Yeah, a few updates back we did a trade mission over there and it was shown that Hath was underestimating our power, while we had been underestimating theirs.
The Econ lost is not just the villages, it's all the waves of refugees we will be welcoming.
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- Location
- Inner Sol System
Frankly, after all they've been going through, I just hope we come off as saviors and not as conquerors.
Guile
Having a really great time right now
To the villages, we're saviors. To Hathatyn at large? Not so much.
That's politics, I guess.
- Location
- Central Europe
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction
CA, Law and Infra are bandwagons, so no real point in arguing these. When it come to Boats I think that:
Size favours sea trade, helps connectivity with Blackriver, Redshore, Southshore, Northshore and Wall. It should also helps us move more troops to the Hathatyn regions along the coast.
Portability favours inland/river trade, helps connectivity of Valleyhome, Sacred Forest, Blackriver (with Stallions), Redshore and maybe Stonepen and Redhills. It would also help us move our troops deeper into the riverine valleys of the Hathatyn.
I feel like favouring our western provinces this turn and I suspect most potential fighting to occur in Hathatyn-Southshore. So, I'm going with Size even though Portability is also a pretty soild choice.
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction
CA, Law and Infra are bandwagons, so no real point in arguing these. When it come to Boats I think that:
Size favours sea trade, helps connectivity with Blackriver, Redshore, Southshore, Northshore and Wall. It should also helps us move more troops to the Hathatyn regions along the coast.
Portability favours inland/river trade, helps connectivity of Valleyhome, Sacred Forest, Blackriver (with Stallions), Redshore and maybe Stonepen and Redhills. It would also help us move our troops deeper into the riverine valleys of the Hathatyn.
I feel like favouring our western provinces this turn and I suspect most potential fighting to occur in Hathatyn-Southshore. So, I'm going with Size even though Portability is also a pretty soild choice.
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Portability
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Portability
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction
- Location
- Germany
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I meant the social upheaval when we introduce our concepts of communal ownership etc.