I'm still pretty sure that line was about us. That is, it was us telling the Hath about the land the Western Wall occupies and them going "no fucking way they actually are that big, we can barely get tribute out of villages half as far away fromour capital as that would be from theirs".

I disagree with that. If it was describing the Hathatyn's view of us, the sentence should have mentioned north or northwest, since that's where the Western Wall would be from their point of view. There's another quote that supports my view.

Also the Hathatyn seemed to be on the move again, although from the way things were shaking out they were probably setting up more settlements to the west rather than attempting to contest the People's control of Southshore. There were some definite issues, but overall nothing major unless the king wanted it to be major.
We know the Hathatyn were trying to set up to the west.

Elsewhere, the trade missions the king had authorized were coming back. The visit to the Hathatyn had mostly been an informative one, introducing the People to the kingdom in the southern hills. The city they had in the river valley there was not comparable to Valleyhome, but it was perhaps a peer to Redshore. The land there was also obviously much richer than in the north, with simpler farms able to support a river valley as well as the lowlands farms. The upper hills not being covered in farms also seemed to allow for more quarries and mines to be made closer to the walled city, although the ugly trade of slaves taken from other villages and cities was a definite concern, along with the generally unclean conditions. For their part the Hathatyn were curious about the obviously wealthy outsiders who claimed to come from beyond their backwoods regions and who were claiming responsibility for turning back generations of their minor raiders. Claims of territorial extent to the west were acknowledged, if considered dubiously over large.

The other bolded parts all describe the Hathatyn. My interpretation is that the underlined one follows the same pattern. This is consistent with the previous quote where the Hath have been described as settling to the west.
 
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Portability
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction

Meh, fair's fair.

@Academia Nut, why doesn't the attempt to take control of adjacent villages cost Centralization?
 
Mediocre for both, which means that Mysticism score is actually higher than typical for kings.
Well, he knew how to use industrial quantities of hemp to quell the drought-season-strong-wine induced riot...I guess he was good at Mysticism in the same way that someone who liked to experiment with drugs was good at chemistry...
Wonder what will be on fire next turn.
Hathatyn!
With how underdeveloped transportation networks are in this era, being able to sail further up a river than others in the trading network is not a minor and irrelevant thing! It's not "Oh, viking raiders!", it's being able to readily navigate smaller rivers and tributaries which means you can get deeper in from the coastline, as well as still being able to safely beach your ship in poorer sites because most places don't have proper docks and harbors yet.
Also this is a big one. Portable boats allowed for trading over land because they could move across river networks, be hauled/rolled over to the next river, then keep going.

More important in regions which are a mess of small river networks, like the Hathatyn and Ymaryn(which yes, we have lots of small rivers that don't appear on the map), as well as actually reaching up the Steppes.

Worked wonders in continental europe, but in our case, river travel is described as key to holding power in Hathatyn, so still quite important.
Is it incredibly rare for a shaman to become king or heir?
Shamans usually don't care about chief business. They don't WANT to be King unless they really are the best candidate available, then it's their social duty to do so.


Leaving a saltern at 4/6 doesn't seem like the People to me. Leaving a job half done is awful.
Balanced most likely will spend a Secondary to finish it.
This was stated as the view of our admin hero, so his bonuses should already be figured into his assessment.
Admin hero also said that blocking both abuses is the best in the long run.

Lumping leads to the guild ossification route of having individual guilds with the backing power of small provinces and strong incentive to discourage change. It's difficult to fix because they will fight tooth and nail to oppose reducing the power of the guildmaster.

Splitting leads to vote trading as the minor guilds with no opinion on the vote put their vote up for bribery. It's possible to fix, but is an administrative nightmare to untangle.

So the choice here is:
-Fix the whole thing, take a difficult diplomacy check and a difficult admin check, but with a Heroic Diplomatic Administrator
-Fix half the problem now and take a difficult diplomacy check later to maneuver the major guilds into accepting change. Without a Heroic Diplomat.
-Fix half the problem now and take a difficult admin check later to untangle the myriad miniguilds. Without a Heroic Admin

If we hit -1 stability then we can just use RoO, not to mention us snagging these villages will probably lower our centralization....which means we can use a [secondary] Enforce Justice to give us more stability too.
Noting that all these villages are not connected, so a sane Admin Hero would probably run roads through them instead so we can project power better.

But RoO is really amazing under a Heroic Admin
[X] [Infra] Salt gift
...wouldn't that cause a really big overflow into Martial under a Heroic Diplomat? We nearly doubled the value of the invested Diplomacy last time under Magwyna.
 
I think the thing we should be looking at is this;
Personally I'm just super happy we won't have to deal with sorting out this mess. I can take a few guesses at the legacy, maxing out every stat may be one of them, another may be finally doing art patronage. I honestly think hilarious things will happen if we just go to progressive policy for even a turn. Would slow down the golden age, though. :(

Final thing could be that he's been trying to get us to go into the red on centralization, yet we've just been massively refusing. If so, expect enforce justice as a main. I will laugh if that happens, honestly.

I think you misread my intended point. When I said "landward direction" I meant a wall in a half or semi circle that went from one side of the village to the other, anchoring the ends of the wall on open sea. Basically if the village is a loose half circle with the flat side facing the sea, then the arch is covered by wall.
Umi means there is no reason to actually put a village literally on the beach. You could just have some of the infrastructure there and wall of right next to the coast, with a gate heading out towards it. That way you don't have to actually worry about naval raiding period, and honestly? People can swim farther than one can expect to build a wall out into the ocean, so it's not actually very protective for the most part.
 
Well, after I take control next turn and get you the legacy I have been trying to shove on you for the past hundred years or so.
Hmm...you've given us a lot of "make a march!" chances lately, so maybe a legacy for building a wall of marches on the steppes? It'd have to give us an extra periphery state slot, since you implied we could then build a trade post...
I disagree with that. If it was describing the Hathatyn's view of us, the sentence should have mentioned north or northwest, since that's where the Western Wall would be from their point of view. There's another quote that supports my view.


We know the Hathatyn were trying to set up to the west.



The other bolded parts all describe the Hathatyn. My interpretation is that the underlined one follows the same pattern. This is consistent with the previous quote where the Hath have been described as settling to the west.
AN actually just replied and proved my suspicions wrong :p
No, that was the People going "They claim pretty far to the west... seems dubious with what we've seen."
 
I 100% understood that point and don't see why people would build like that if sea raids are common, but okay.
Because I am operating under the assumption the Hathatyn coastal towns don't raid each other, but go out to raid other folks. Probably wrong but ehh *shrug*


On other things.

I think the Legacy is some kind of mysticism related one with a tinge of Admin. Reading back from around <Peculiar results> we start getting a lot of complex admin decisions related to mysticism. This is my first guess.
 
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[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Portability
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction
 
Salt Gift is like Snails but moreso in exchange for not moving towards trade dominance. The Snail additional effects are probably equivalent to the prestige bonus in terms of long-term viability. I'll vote for both, since Saltern really only makes sense if we're going for the Golden Age instead (minimum [CA]).

After the recent WoG, I think I'll go for Portability. Size is better long-term, but Portability is better short-term and we're likely to get another advancement by the time Size becomes more important.

[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Portability

[X] [Infra] Main Expand Snail Cultivation
[X] [Infra] Main Salt Gift
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by Umi-san on Jun 4, 2017 at 1:05 AM, finished with 47182 posts and 84 votes.
 
...wouldn't that cause a really big overflow into Martial under a Heroic Diplomat? We nearly doubled the value of the invested Diplomacy last time under Magwyna.
Okay, that's actually a good point.
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Portability
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction
 
After the recent WoG, I think I'll go for Portability. Size is better long-term, but Portability is better short-term and we're likely to get another advancement by the time Size becomes more important.
There's also the fact that we'll be building up from our existing designs, meaning that it'd be bigger ships built along the lines of our more portable designs.
 
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to get that advancement we'll need to make the docks that would make size useful
Well we have been looking to do things for the North. Why not a dock in Blackmouth? It's the biggest city in Blackriver.
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Jun 4, 2017 at 1:13 AM, finished with 47191 posts and 85 votes.
 
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Portability
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction

Been convinced by AN saying bigger boats won't help a ton until we get more docks. And since building more docks will probably unlock more tech advances anyway, we might as well wait on size.

Seriously. Everybody else is battered and exhausted. If our Diplo/Admin hero sweeps in with massive gifts of salt just as he expands his faction's long-established tradition of adoption out of humanitarian aid on an enormous scale in the face of unprecedented natural catastrophe the synergy will be enormous.

"These people are notoriously wealthy and benevolent as all get-out? They've already got large swaths of territory flocking to them and recovering impressively under their aid and genius admin? They're looking for harmonious partners even among those who don't want to join outright? They're on the edge of a hell of a golden age and are happy to bring everybody else along with then? Their unassailable trade empire has legendarily large cargo ships rolling off the docks? They have a massive, MASSIVE army they quite pointedly aren't doing anything with (yet)? Even the Nomads are terrified of them? The alternative are the distant, fractious Thunder Horse who haven't even mastered star-metal yet despite being mystically defined by it?

Sign me up!"​

Our sphere of influence and trade empire could more than triple overnight if we take all the synergistic choices simultaneously. If the Thunder Horses don't like it, well we need to burn some military anyway. Let's flip the Raiders, Thunder Speakers, and Dead Priests into our sphere on one fell swoop just as the volcano god kills us all!

Salt gift will lead to overflow into Martial. Hard to tell how much it will go up, but if we got the same return as last time we did Salt Gift with a heroic diplomat we'd go to something like 14 {19} Martial. Which could do a lot of bad things in our society, ESPECIALLY because we'll be at low stability in all likelihood.
 
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Speed
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction
 
They don't know. Portability probably to start since you only get the most out of the size ones if you have another dock at the other end of the trip, but speed has its advantages and once they get more docks size would probably be pretty good.
...everyone forgot about large boats needing large docks at the other hand huh?
We'd need to use the rowboat solution to unload goods from the big ships...which is a Portable boat.
Umi means there is no reason to actually put a village literally on the beach. You could just have some of the infrastructure there and wall of right next to the coast, with a gate heading out towards it. That way you don't have to actually worry about naval raiding period, and honestly? People can swim farther than one can expect to build a wall out into the ocean, so it's not actually very protective for the most part.
...thats not how naval defense works.

First, amphibious landings are bullshit. Even the vikings avoided them. It means you are in a slow moving, highly flammable boat with no cover while people on the shore can shoot at you. It only became practical at all with the advent of siege engines on large ship, which allowed the ship to use anti-fortification weapons to cover for a landing party moving up.

This means that most coastal invasions involve boats fighting boats, or else the invading force will land a short distance away from the village, disembark and approach on foot.

That's what a wall is for.
That's why building a village just a little bit inland only makes it easier to attack by sea.
 
Well we have been looking to do things for the North. Why not a dock in Blackmouth? It's the biggest city in Blackriver.
I'd be fine with that, as it would speed development there, though a dock in newly gained Hathatyn land would be better suited for connecting them to us.

Western Wall might well make a dock, actually.

That's why building a village just a little bit inland only makes it easier to attack by sea.
But less vulnerable to storms, erosion, and people who simply splash water on the boat beforehand... and/or arrive at night in a blackened boat.
 
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to get that advancement we'll need to make the docks that would make size useful
So we don't have the infrastructure (Docks) to make our logistics (Big Boats) useful because we need more infrastructure (Groomed Trails) to set up our infrastructure (Docks) at the destination. Infrastructure (Groomed Trails) that could be improved by large shipments (Big Boats) of gravel. Or even having no infrastructure (No Trails) to set up better infrastructure (Groomed -> Gravel Trails).

And for all that, we need Centralization to make trails.

No wonder it's been so hard to upgrade anything logistically.
 
I'd be fine with that, as it would speed development there, though a dock in newly gained Hathatyn land would be better suited for connecting them to us.

Western Wall might well make a dock, actually.


But less vulnerable to storms, erosion, and people who simply splash water on the boat beforehand...
I... could swear they already did. One sec...
 
So we don't have the infrastructure (Docks) to make our logistics (Big Boats) useful because we need more infrastructure (Groomed Trails) to set up our infrastructure (Docks) at the destination. Infrastructure (Groomed Trails) that could be improved by large shipments (Big Boats) of gravel. Or even having no infrastructure (No Trails) to set up better infrastructure (Groomed -> Gravel Trails).

And for all that, we need Centralization to make trails.

No wonder it's been so hard to upgrade anything logistically.
Why would you need trails to build the docks.. Forests are widespread, even in Blackmouth.

The gravel is gotten from mining so you just build gravel trails extending outward from the mines.

I... could swear they already did. One sec...
It would b cool.
 
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@SpeckofStardust , @Rozencrantz , @ctulhuslp , @Godwinson , @Crazy7s1 , @Sivantic , @notgreat : while I will forever* cherish the support, the immutable reality is that the mere fact that I openly supported, and especially voted for, a course of action absolutely ensures that it will not be the winner. I advise you to ignore your hearts and vote strategically to minimize the damage of whatever inferior option is ultimately selected.

*Forever = 10 +/- 5 minutes at current levels is inebriation.

**Please feed my iguana.
 
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Portability
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction
 
We could sandwich the Hathatyn by setting up a colony on the opposite side of their western settlement, which basically screw them hard.
 
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