[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Portability
River-boats for couriers! and good communication will probably help keep the new guild-shit unfucked, like we like it, while we push our way south a mile or so.
 
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Speed
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction
 
Portability in boats is absolutely just the ability to pick them up and move them over land - literally how carry-able they are. Size is good for carrying more people/goods (and so I think it will improve our Support Subordinates actions, as well as trade) and speed makes boats go faster, the main strength of which is for naval combat.


The Marches most certainly were not "territory taken by war" - we haven't taken territory from any polity via war. The nomads don't count, they don't have territory to take. The Marches are just defending territory we expanded into peacefully.

[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Have the law favour lumping
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction

What exactly is wrong with lumping? I can see how splitting is a problem, but larger groups requiring more resources is perfectly reasonable.
AN said it would help on rivers, so whatevs.

Size would help with Support Subordinates, will not help with Trade unless you're interested in trading sizable goods rather than the luxuries we have thus far specialized in, which are small in size, limited in production, and decrease in value as supply becomes larger.

I'd also note that we're at risk of going to war with the Hathatyn, a notable naval power.
 
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Have the law favour splitting
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction
 
Inserted tally
Adhoc vote count started by McLuvin on Jun 3, 2017 at 8:10 PM, finished with 46930 posts and 48 votes.
 
Fortunately generations of city planning meant that the riot didn't get too out of hand, at least not before a chief's son who had been assisting with a project got out the product of that work from storage.

Standing atop a building where he could be seen while friends wafted the smoke from burning coals into the crowd, Gonwyllmyn called out with a rich, booming voice, "People, People! Are you so truly overcome as to lose yourselves like this? Is this not meant to be a joyous occasion, not one for violence?"

This announcement was mostly ignored, although more than a few people paused to look up and take note of the pungent vapours in the air. Gonwyllmyn just kept at it though, until more and more people were paying attention to him than fighting, as well as the honestly kind of obnoxiously sweet smell in the air. Soon enough after that the park he was shouting down at had become something of a sink where confused and possibly angry people drifted in and just sort of got stuck listening to a very charismatic man ask for further peace and calm, as well as appreciating the smells in the air.

By the time the king had the situation under control Gonwyllmyn was being hailed as a hero by everyone who heard his story. About the only ones who were annoyed were the shamans who had asked him to help stockpile the various herbs they had been collecting from some of the forested hills in the western part of Redhills, considering that he had burned the wagonload of the stuff they had been studying. Still, while no one was quite sure how far the riot might have gone without his partial intervention, he had definitely helped minimize the damage, both in the immediate sense and in the sense of creating a lasting black mark upon what the festival was trying to do. Things could be corrected later and the next year would be better as intended.

For his part, Gonwyllmyn was rewarded with a major appointment in coordinating the reconstruction of the damaged areas, where he proved both adept at the administrative work and able to get competing interests to reach compromise. In this, he saw to fresh construction and the implementation of new techniques that allowed new buildings to rise up higher than ever before, allowing more people to fit into the same space and thus providing extra room for parks and fountains to be put in. While some joked that the rioters had ultimately been rewarded for damage to their own homes, this did spark a boom in construction as the city began to renovate itself, new and improved buildings going up higher in order to make more room for beautification projects. As Gonwyllmyn's skills became known and he was moved on to assist and manage with ever greater projects, it became an inevitability that he would be made the heir to the king going forward, having both the connections, the skill, and the charisma to make it a smooth trip.

So, it doesn't sound like he's old enough to have been the one behind the attempted war with the Highlands Kingdom. Their child, perhaps? He is a chief's son.
 
Er.. what? The Hath are territoriality larger than us. They are just breaking apart from their own mismanagement.
They've just claimed to be large. We have no proof this is actually the case.

And then, on top of all of that, the southern boat raiders had made more proper contact with the People, and the situation had become a bit more clear. In the mountains and hills to the southwest, beyond the sea and out of the reach of the Highlanders there were a number of kingdoms along the course of river valleys there, and recently they had exploded into a round of violence, dumping people into the fishing villages along the rivers that emptied into the sea.

A while back there were multiple kingdoms in the region along the southern shore.

there were people from the Southern Hill Tribes - now being called the Hathatyn after the city that seemed dominant in the overall region, Hathaya - who were also starting to settle the region.
It's only dominant but they don't rule the entire region.

The visit to the Hathatyn had mostly been an informative one, introducing the People to the kingdom in the southern hills. The city they had in the river valley there was not comparable to Valleyhome, but it was perhaps a peer to Redshore. The land there was also obviously much richer than in the north, with simpler farms able to support a river valley as well as the lowlands farms. The upper hills not being covered in farms also seemed to allow for more quarries and mines to be made closer to the walled city, although the ugly trade of slaves taken from other villages and cities was a definite concern, along with the generally unclean conditions. For their part the Hathatyn were curious about the obviously wealthy outsiders who claimed to come from beyond their backwoods regions and who were claiming responsibility for turning back generations of their minor raiders. Claims of territorial extent to the west were acknowledged, if considered dubiously over large.
They have much better land than ours but they have issues competing with us in trade. We also don't completely believe their claims of territory.

We're easily in the Trade lead for both Dye and Wine last turn, both things that we've barely invested in, one of which is incredibly recent.

sounded like at least one tributary city was just straight up gone.
These are just vassals.

It sounds to me like they're just the strongest city-state and have multiple vassals in the area. Vassals that are fed up with the situation and are warring with their conquerors.
 
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[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Portability
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction
 
[X] [CA] Accept those who come to the People (Chance of Stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Portability
[X] [Infra] Main Expand Snail Cultivation
 
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[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices
[X] [Boats] Speed
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction
 
I really don't get the votes for portability. We've had little issue with our rivers, our main troubles have been the long distances to reach our marches. Are people voting for this just on the basis of using them to fight the Hathatyn?
 
Holy shit, you guys are seriously not thinking this through. Have you all collectively forgotten about Quality of Its Own? Or that stats overflow into Martial when everything is maxed out?

What you're doing is overflowing Economy so hard it overflows everything else, resulting in an increase base Martial. The Economy will also give us bonus Martial. We will be SERIOUSLY over the limit on Martial, we're going to lose a minimum of 2 Stability, possibly an extra 1 Stability from the refugees, and possibly more stability from fixing the new administration issue! You could not try to make a better plan to purposely do us as much harm as possible!

[X] [CA] Accept those who come to the People (Chance of Stability loss, +2 Econ)

This gives us plenty of Stability to solve the administration issue and whatever religious issues might crop up. If all goes well and we maintain Stability 3, there's a good chance we'll enter into a Golden Age next turn.

[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices

Heroic Administration and Heroic Diplomacy means this is the best time to do something like this.

[X] [Boats] Portability

Logistics.

[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction

Spends Economy, which we badly need to get rid of. We're already at the cap for Martial due to Quality of Its Own. This is very bad and we should endeavour to get rid of it until we can build that Trading Post next turn to bleed off Martial.
 
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[X] [CA] Accept those who come to the People (Chance of Stability loss, +2 Econ)
[X] [Law] Have the law favour lumping
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction

I want to sit at 3 Stability and/or have the option to use it to Kick instead of expanding down there, it's just more territory we have to worry about defending and we're a little borderline on the Prestige necessary to hold 3 Marches. (Also we really don't want too much Econ->Martial)
Lumping is fine, big-tent politics aren't always the best but as things get more and more complex with job divisions it'll keep things stable instead of having lots of guys at the top end for every willy-nilly thing.
SIZE. Important for trade and important for eventually working on transoceanic voyages.
Saltern is a no brainer, same arguments as previous turns.
 
[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Have the law favour lumping
[X] [Boats] Portability
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction
 
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Holy shit, you guys are seriously not thinking this through. Have you all collectively forgotten about Quality of Its Own? Or that stats overflow into Martial when everything is maxed out?
When we have a heroic Diplo hero, positive stability, and a war looming, one which we'd actually prefer, high martial isn't a bad thing.

If the war doesn't happen, we dump the martial into a new march next turn.
 
Holy shit, you guys are seriously not thinking this through. Have you all collectively forgotten about Quality of Its Own? Or that stats overflow into Martial when everything is maxed out?
What you're doing is overflowing Economy so hard it overflows everything else, resulting in an increase base Martial. The Economy will also give us bonus Martial. We will be SERIOUSLY over the limit on Martial, we're going to lose a minimum of 2 Stability, possibly an extra 1 Stability from the refugees, and possibly more stability from fixing the new administration issue! You could not try to make a better plan to purposely do us as much harm as possible!
OH FUCK
[X] [CA] CLEAR
 
Holy shit, you guys are seriously not thinking this through. Have you all collectively forgotten about Quality of Its Own? Or that stats overflow into Martial when everything is maxed out?

What you're doing is overflowing Economy so hard it overflows everything else, resulting in an increase base Martial. The Economy will also give us bonus Martial. We will be SERIOUSLY over the limit on Martial, we're going to lose a minimum of 2 Stability, possibly an extra 1 Stability from the refugees, and possibly more stability from fixing the new administration issue! You could not try to make a better plan to purposely do us as much harm as possible!

[X] [CA] Accept those who come to the People (Chance of Stability loss, +2 Econ)

This gives us plenty of Stability to solve the administration issue and whatever religious issues might crop up. If all goes well and we maintain Stability 3, there's a good chance we'll enter into a Golden Age next turn.

[X] [Law] Attempt to close off both practices

Heroic Administration and Heroic Diplomacy means this is the best time to do something like this.

[X] [Boats] Size

Logistics.

[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction

Spends Economy, which we badly need to get rid of. We're already at the cap for Martial due to Quality of Its Own. This is very bad and we should endeavour to get rid of it until we can build that Trading Post next turn to bleed off Martial.
Well with Saltern taking the max actually makes some sense. Saltern is -4 Econ to counter the influx of 8 to 10. Means we end up with plus 4 to 6 Econ, putting us at 15 to 17 econ. Divide that by three and we end up at either 15 or 16 Martial partial over limit. Heavily inclines us to spawn a March or a trade post.

Definitely a risk but we are in a decent place to risk it with Gon in play, who AN has said gets his bonus for the Law thing.
 
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[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Leave things be
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction

You know, whenever a law movement comes up we've always tried to correct it immediately. What if we just, wait a bit and see what happens? Look to see what these two voting systems do to themselves and each other and then make a decision. Remember, the Myth of Cursed Metal was Crow teaching us to be willing to hesitate and examine what facts we find. Let us do that now and see what these two systems become before we try to curtail them.
 
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[X] [CA] Attempt to take control of adjacent villages (-2 Stability, chance of further loss, -2 Diplomacy, unknowable chance of war with the Hathatyn, +8-10 Econ, +4 Econ Expansion)
[X] [Law] Have the law favour lumping
[X] [Boats] Speed
[X] [Infra] Main Saltern Construction
 
Holy shit, you guys are seriously not thinking this through
Read back through the debates calmly mate, we are saying that if we can't vent the extra martial on kicking the shit out of the Hathatyn then we are planning on throwing out a March next turn.

Alongside our plans to create a trading post that means we could lose about 5 Martial or so on the war and failing that 7 Martial on the March and Trading Post in the next update, which is the start of the next full turn when we can do all those actions immediately in response to any issues
 
Portability helps with general riverine trade, which is where most trade will be at this level of development for everyone. More than that, with our absolutely shitacular trails, it'll help our internal trade networks too.
 
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