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Paths of Civilization

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notgreat said:
With our new trait, by far the fastest way to gain action-equivalents is by dominating trade in something we're already leading in. With multiple "leading"s, we're in a great position to get that. Overflowing Diplo -> Art -> Mysticism is actually going to be cheaper than fixing our Mysticism problem directly.
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I agree that overflowing Diplo via Centre of Trade is the best way to gain action-equivalents, but I still think making the Library is worth it. It just synergizes so well with all of our Study actions and Love of Wisdom. If it ALSO takes away the mysticism drain that would be great, but while action equivalents are very nice tech is very nice too.

My plan would be that, if we're at 0 or 1 stability, switch to Megaproject support to knock out the Temple and the Library in 2 to 3 turns, with our other actions probably going toward Expand Econ to keep True City and pay for things. After that, go hard on trade goods.
 
ctulhuslp said:
But with promised nasty downside, maintaining those leads will be hard, harder for each one, and sliding will punch us...probably in Stability - and without TGG giving us GS, we do not have emergency +2 guaranteed stability button.

So, while this is a powerful tool, I would much rather prefer to limit it to one trade good, maybe two, because otherwise we will, down the line, tie our actions in maintaining the leads or dealing with consequences of losing them.
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Those goods should, at this point, be Wine and Salt. Nobody else can produce salt at the volumes we can at the moment and won't for a long time, and wine is a fairly geographically limited crop if quality is desired.
 
pbluekan said:
Provinces:
2x Megaproject
Law Megaproject
Generic Secondary, likely a trade good or study stars.
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This is one too many province actions. We have 4 currently. Last turn we got 5 because secondary expand econ was doubled. If we're on megaproject support with enough resources, we'll get 6 by a main megaproject being doubled. We can't get 7 AFAIK.
 
ctulhuslp said:
without TGG giving us GS, we do not have emergency +2 guaranteed stability button.
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If we can get a free and reasonably stable turn, I'd like to try to Enforce Justice our centralization into red. It'll cause a crisis, but might also give us a way to intentionally lower centralization - which would, in turn, let us Enforce Justice more often.
 
DragonParadox said:
You are assuming an excess of forethought IMO from what you called a warlord, that is the kind of person driven by dreams of glory.
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idr calling the XS a warlord.

Also, glory doesn't equal stupidity. Just look at that one nomad hero: he didn't want grandeur through immediate spoils, he wanted grandeur through establishing continued prosperity.

Andres110 said:
While I do see the immense advantage in getting a new saltern, the last few turns have indicated that we should really try to get Stability up, at least a little bit. We're doing major stuff with our religion so it's probably wiser to get some stability up more than it is to get a new saltern up as quickly as possible.
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Eh, we're already in the process of getting stability up with RoO. We'll see how that turns out and then decide if we need to do something more. Otherwise, a steady inflow of stats is just too useful to delay.

Oh right, that reminds me: @Candesce @veekie Please remember that new provinces decrease centralization.

@Academia Nut Does the temple trigger Divine Stewards or no? Idr.
Also, does integrating the March decrease Centralization or no?
 
McLuvin said:
I am just pointing out the facts.

Who is more likely to encourage our People forward towards parity with the spirits? A goddess of harvest who needs us to till her fields? Or a being of wisdom, a being whose plots and plans span the world, who created us with the compacity for wisdom and innovation.

I'm just stating the simple fact that Crow offers us the stars and sky and world entire, whilst your goddess offers us only the dirt and would have us till away stuck in the filth for her benefit more than ours.

That is slavery in my eyes
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"Facts" born from baseless conjunctions and boasts are disgrace to the Crow. You can be a better student to the teacher by citing actuals and not spurting nonfactual.

I'm done with your lies, deceiver.
 
pbluekan said:
Those goods should, at this point, be Wine and Salt. Nobody else can produce salt at the volumes we can at the moment and won't for a long time, and wine is a fairly geographically limited crop if quality is desired.
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I'd wait till we see competitors for wine next turn before deciding. Dye is also quite geographically limited after all. Salt+dye would be quite reasonable.
 
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pblur said:
I'd wait till we see competitors for wine next turn before deciding. Dye is also quit geographically limited after all. Salt +dye would be quite reasonable.
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At least near-future, wine will be easier to gain dominance in - the lowlands are too rich to produce good wine, for all that they might make nice vinegar. Other hilled nations are too weird, too, until you hit ~the steppes where the soil drains better. Forests don't make for the best wine, and other nations probably lack the fruit.

Dye can be from snails or from plants, minerals, etc.
 
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Andres110 said:
While I do see the immense advantage in getting a new saltern, the last few turns have indicated that we should really try to get Stability up, at least a little bit. We're doing major stuff with our religion so it's probably wiser to get some stability up more than it is to get a new saltern up as quickly as possible.
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We are doing RoO currently.
But yes, we need more stability, especially since without GS we will have troubles restoring it.
 
pbluekan said:
Those goods should, at this point, be Wine and Salt. Nobody else can produce salt at the volumes we can at the moment and won't for a long time, and wine is a fairly geographically limited crop if quality is desired.
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I am far from sure on salt; those nomadic traders had it, and somebody else is bound to have it to because of how useful it is; so, while it is undeniably a good option, we will have to pay for maintaining the lead just like with any other option.
But salt is probably the best one. Not sure about the wine.

Honestly, the most 'unique' long-term thing for us would be high-quality ubiquitous timber, like historical Phoenician cedar, but better. It is kind of rare in the region, and social structure which pr the motes preservation of and caring for forests is probably going to remain almost uniquely ours quality; once bulk trade gets going, ours wood and, more importantly, goods crafted from it, are going to be pretty significant.

Which means that, if we want to go down the Trade path, we need to do more Study Forests, Expands, shipbuilding and Art Patronage in some combinations.
 
Candesce said:
If we can get a free and reasonably stable turn, I'd like to try to Enforce Justice our centralization into red. It'll cause a crisis, but might also give us a way to intentionally lower centralization - which would, in turn, let us Enforce Justice more often.
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I don't want to go in the red, AN has said outright that its dangerous. Also, we do have a way to intentionally lower centralization, we just dont have any new provinces available to be made. Integrating the marches will likely lower it too, but then we'll have way too much martial, so...if anything the best way of purposefully lowering centralization right now would be march-walking across the steppe (that is, integrate march + make new march at same time). THe best way imo isn't even purposeful, its "get to yellow centralization and take options that trade centralization for hierarchy, or evolve the gov so we have a higher limit"
 
Current plans:

Stability 0 or 1:
[Main] Grand Temple
[Secondary] Expand Snail Production
[Secondary] Expand Snail Production x2
Might switch snails to vineyards if that looks more promising.

Stability -1 or -2:
[Main] Grand Temple
[Secondary] Restore Order
[Secondary] Restore Order x2

Possible alternative Stability 0 plan:
[Main] Grand Temple
[Kick] Grand Temple
[Secondary] Restore Order
[Secondary] Restore Order x2
We were allowed to do this for the mine so we should be able to do this here as well.

Candesce said:
The only reason to accumulate action-equivalents is for what we can do with them.
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...Yes, but they provide exponential growth. Permanent action-equivalent income is the most important long-term investment we can do, since it means we can do everything better. (Directly improving our actions would also work, but we don't have any way of doing that reliably.)

ctulhuslp said:
But with promised nasty downside, maintaining those leads will be hard, harder for each one, and sliding will punch us...probably in Stability - and without TGG giving us GS, we do not have emergency +2 guaranteed stability button.

So, while this is a powerful tool, I would much rather prefer to limit it to one trade good, maybe two, because otherwise we will, down the line, tie our actions in maintaining the leads or dealing with consequences of losing them.
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Academia Nut said:
Hmmm... being dominant in multiple positions would make it less worse,
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Need I say more? Multiple Dominant positions gives more Diplo and some resistance to losing the lead.

Dieb said:
My plan would be that, if we're at 0 or 1 stability, switch to Megaproject support to knock out the Temple and the Library in 2 to 3 turns, with our other actions probably going toward Expand Econ to keep True City and pay for things. After that, go hard on trade goods.
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Or we could dominate trade first, guarantee ridiculous stats, and then switch to Megaproject Support. It delays the Library by ~2 turns in exchange for securing our stat income so that we can do like 4 megaprojects in a row if we somehow don't have any disasters.
 
VoidZero said:
"Facts" born from baseless conjunctions and boasts are disgrace to the Crow. You can be a better student to the teacher by citing actuals and not spurting nonfactual.

I'm done with your lies, deceiver.
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I'm done with your hypocrisy and idiocy blind fool!

You state your goddess deserves more veneration than others, yet she is but one of many food sources, one of many goddesses and not even the most popular or mightiest amongst the pantheons!

She is nothing compared to Crow.

So go, take your leave, I just hope you no longer try to degrade the gods with your assertions that such a common and base goddess deserves extra attention.
 
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Umi-san said:
Please remember that new provinces decrease centralization.
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Please remember that provinces also leave our borders vulnerable.

And between salterns and megaprojects, we're going to have a very hard time shaking loose the econ for major defensive works.
Abby Normal said:
I don't want to go in the red, AN has said outright that its dangerous.
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Yeah. No question. Trying that's not something to do casually.

notgreat said:
Permanent action-equivalent income is the most important long-term investment we can do, since it means we can do everything better.
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Nope. Not quite.

Permanent action-equivalent income is important, but keeping our civilization from shaking itself to pieces easily trumps it. And all three of the major wonders we want to build right now are about preserving our civilization and culture.
 
[X] [Temple] Gwy and Gyo
[X] [Crow] Alien but knowable
[X] [Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made
[X] [Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)
[X] [CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)
 
VoidZero said:
That means we can cement ourtrade block by flooding the world with cheap lower quality plant dye and high end high quality snail dye!:o
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@pblur
Cheap dye would likely be fairly easy to transport, and we probably have plants that are relatively unique.

Still want opium though. Can we please Salt Gift the HK & Hathatyn?

Candesce said:
Please remember that provinces also leave our borders vulnerable.

And between salterns and megaprojects, we're going to have a very hard time shaking loose the econ for major defensive works.
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Yes, but it provides an answer to "how do we lose centralization."

And:
a) Honestly if we want to take out the T bloc we need to start with the TS. Expanding that way won't damage us much till they start attacking, at which point we iron them.
b) If Integrate March (or Post, or Colony) reduces centralization, we can just seed and consume them in the north, letting them do their own defensive works.
 
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notgreat said:
Current plans:

Stability 0 or 1:
[Main] Grand Temple
[Secondary] Expand Snail Production
[Secondary] Expand Snail Production x2
Might switch snails to vineyards if that looks more promising.

Stability -1 or -2:
[Main] Grand Temple
[Secondary] Restore Order
[Secondary] Restore Order x2

Possible alternative Stability 0 plan:
[Main] Grand Temple
[Kick] Grand Temple
[Secondary] Restore Order
[Secondary] Restore Order x2
We were allowed to do this for the mine so we should be able to do this here as well.


...Yes, but they provide exponential growth. Permanent action-equivalent income is the most important long-term investment we can do, since it means we can do everything better. (Directly improving our actions would also work, but we don't have any way of doing that reliably.)



Need I say more? Multiple Dominant positions gives more Diplo and some resistance to losing the lead.


Or we could dominate trade first, guarantee ridiculous stats, and then switch to Megaproject Support. It delays the Library by ~2 turns in exchange for securing our stat income so that we can do like 4 megaprojects in a row if we somehow don't have any disasters.
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I think your plan would delay the Library by a lot more than that. We won't even have the Grand Temple done in 3 turns without megaproject support, much less get a couple of Salterns and spend actions on dye and wine as well. Our provinces should help somewhat on balanced with those, but I don't think they will go all in the way we'd like them too.
 
Candesce said:
Please remember that provinces also leave our borders vulnerable.

And between salterns and megaprojects, we're going to have a very hard time shaking loose the econ for major defensive works.
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I'm reserving judgement till we see the outcome of the drought-driven Waugh, but so far 2 iron-equipped marches make expanding north extremely safe.


Nope. Not quite.

Permanent action-equivalent income is important, but keeping our civilization from shaking itself to pieces easily trumps it. And all three of the major wonders we want to build right now are about preserving our civilization and culture.
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You're shifting goalposts here.

Yes, keeping our civilization from shaking itself to pieces is more important.

No, those megaprojects are not required for that.
 
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If we get 1 Stability then we may be able to get to 3 Stability with 1 Main Enforce Justice
And get golden age
 
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