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Paths of Civilization

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[X] [Temple] Fythhagyna
[X] [Crow] Benevolent
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)
[X] [CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

Tactical vote. Really, really want Crow on the ceiling as above the gods and separate from them.
Adhoc vote count started by Chrestomanci on Jun 1, 2017 at 12:44 PM, finished with 44802 posts and 101 votes.
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Candesce said:
We're likely to lose stability either way, and we don't currently have a slot to stick an evolved version in.

So, let's hope that wine really does help with festivals, because I don't think we want to hold on to that trait too long. Especially with guilds.
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Sadly wine wouldn't have come in until the middle of next turn in the first place, and the drought has apparently delayed that.
 
I'll note that between this trait and our saltern we're already getting 4 diplo a turn once wine is up and running, so it's not like its all bad :p
 
Chrestomanci said:
[X] [Temple] Fythhagyna
[X] [Crow] Benevolent
[X] [Boats] Size
[X] [Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)
[X] [CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

Tactical vote. Really, really want Crow on the ceiling as above the gods and separate from them.
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He goes on the ceiling of you vote for him to be the main god
 
bluefur87 said:
Okay, that explains that, and I'm going to ask everyone in general. Do you think it's worth changing?

On the one hand, we want to get rid of this trait ASAP, on the other hand, we're at -1 stability, so we'd have to switch to Main Enforce Justice or something else, as the risk of us shattering is too great.
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I don't think the drawback is so huge as it seems. From what I can tell it basically means:
-When we drop out of the lead in a trade good we will trigger an event, where people raise hell and drop Stability unless we "deal with the problem"
--If we lose the lead due to trade network disruption, people will want us to wage war to restore trade, or to find alternative trade routes. The latter is easy, provided we have the boats and roads for it. Preventatively, taking more of the coast will protect and extend trade routes substantially.

--If we lose the lead due to being outproduced(dye, salt, wine, metal), we'd have commit to produce more of the goods or reduce the competitor's ability to produce the goods. The former is easy for dye and salt, but wine depends on geography, and pursuing dominance in metals is difficult for us without breaking out the iron.

--If we lose the lead due to being outcompeted in techniques(weaving, pottery, alloys, carvings), then we'd have to commit to actions to expand and improve in those techniques, or steal rival techniques.

The really tricky bit is if we accidentally gain a lead through regional collapses, then we're going to eat anger when our neighbors pick back up. So once you become the best, you have to stay there.
The Xohyissiri seem to mostly rely on their pottery, as they can keep improving it via Art Patronage indefinitely by making more intricate art styles.

It also curiously has synergy with Honor of Elites conceptually, so it might yet fuse into that down the road.
 
McLuvin said:
Keep your pussy arse wheat god, I'll take the god of mystery, the creator god, the only being with wisdom as my patron.

We are Ymaryn, inventors and innovators!
That is the source of our strength!
What is Crow other than the wisest of gods, the one who teaches us the hard lessons, was it not Crow who taught us to adore wisdom? Was it not Crow who gifted the people with the ability to learn by looking at the world and figuring it out for themselves?

You can go glut yourself on wheat and food, I will look at the great Mystery that is Crow, and I will learn at his feat, as our ancestors did, and their ancestors before them, as the gods, celestials and terrestrials did!

Crow is our patron for a reason, and we are great because of it.
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What is Crow but a carrion eater? An animal that feast on the dead. You claim every dropping as insight of wisdom, yet those are only good for soil nutrients. Your family starves while you pursue idle thoughts, empty and vain. No, the earth and forest and fields and herds and orchard are the true root of our people; and you are a mere leaf.
:mob:
 
Also thinking about it I think we have another reason not to go to negative Stability now. That might have bad interactions if we are at golden or really low diplo and we happened to go to negative Stability with this trait.
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Jun 1, 2017 at 12:52 PM, finished with 44811 posts and 101 votes.
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BungieONI said:
We will probably be able to drop festivals two times in a row so It may work?
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Depends on what happens here, there is a decent chance of us ending up at Stab 1. On a side note, I'm reasonably certain our provinces are going to main expand snail cultivation next turn as a result of this.

McLuvin said:
But he is a god, the patron of our civilisation, he should be respected and remembered, best way for that to happen is for him to be worshiped
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He is specifically not a god and our civilization currently has no patron.
Academia Nut said:
Gods

Gods are a special class of spirit that have three characteristics: they are powerful enough to affect the world, they are interested in human affairs, and they can be convinced of things through human intervention. This last part is perhaps the most tricky since many lesser spirits that are not thought of as gods can also fall under this framework, but the general difference is that rituals and prayers directed at lesser spirits are done personally while for gods they are as much addressing the responsibilities of the god as the god individually. Thus, when apologising to a tree for cutting it down, one is making a personal appeal to the tree's spirit, but when addressing the God of All Forests one is making an address to the responsibility the god holds. There are however a few examples of Lesser Spirits who are also Gods, usually because they have a localised but critically important job, usually of important natural places like springs, caves, or grottoes of important spiritual significance.
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Academia Nut said:
Crow

Crow, the Creator and Teacher, is something else entirely. By the framework above, Crow would be considered a 'demon-god', but the conclusion drawn is that while he comes from the same place beyond the order of the world as demons he himself is not a demon as he helped produce the order of the world, and he is not intrinsically malicious. Dangerous yes, but malicious no. A better translation of his role would be 'Primordial', 'Titan', or 'Asura'. Something immensely powerful and a little bit outside the current order, but not demonic. The fact that Crow does not take a leadership role among gods and spirits is also a notable divergence for one of his power.
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McLuvin said:
He goes on the ceiling of you vote for him to be the main god
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But that wouldn't have him as above the gods/separate from them. It would just mean he is the greatest of the gods.

Candesce said:
And I really, really want multipartite gods, of which Fithhagyna is the single worst pick on the list.
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My first vote was for Gwy and Gyo, and I still think they are the best choice. But they don't seem to have a chance, so I changed.
 
We're actually only dominant in one good - Iron - and that is non-traded. So we're currently not getting any benefit out of Centre of Trade, but we're also not very vulnerable to the stability hit and war penalty.

Seriously. We're only "Leading" in Salt, even though we don't have any competitors. My guess is that to be dominant, you need to be at have 2 least two major "sources" of that trade good ahead of anyone else. If we built another Slatern, or maybe expanded the one we have AND build another, then we'd be dominant in Salt. Probably worth doing somewhat soon, we'd get two more diplo a turn (one from Centre of Trade, one from getting two expansions of salt) and it would "only" cost 8 minor actions (and 16 econ). The advantage of being dominant in salt is that we're far less likely to get competition then if we were to become dominant in dye or wine.
 
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Chrestomanci said:
But that wouldn't have him as above the gods/separate from them. It would just mean he is the greatest of the gods.


My first vote was for Gwy and Gyo, and I still think they are the best choice. But they don't seem to have a chance, so I changed.
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In two hundred years or so, if Crow is not the main god, he will become the god's messenger or something similar.

Crow is a difficult god to accept and worship. All the other options are far more mundane and easier.

If we do not choose crow now, do not expect him to stay all too significant for much longer.
 
Dieb said:
We're actually only dominant in one good - Iron - and that is non-traded. So we're currently not getting any benefit out of Centre of Trade, but we're also not very vulnerable to the stability hit and war penalty.

Seriously. We're only "Leading" in Salt, even though we don't have any competitors. My guess is that to be dominant, you need to be at have 2 least two major "sources" of that trade good ahead of anyone else. If we built another Slatern, or maybe expanded the one we have AND build another, then we'd be dominant in Salt. Probably worth doing somewhat soon, we'd get two more diplo a turn (one from Centre of Trade, one from getting two expansions of salt) and it would "only" cost 8 minor actions (and 16 econ). The advantage of being dominant in salt is that we're far less likely to get competition then if we were to become dominant in dye or wine.
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AN's actually already answered about this, we're getting 3 diplo the next midturn, with that likely being either "1 for leading in dyes, 1 for leading in salt, 1 for leading in wine when we start producing that" or "1 for leading in dyes, 1 for leading in salt, 1 base"
(Also i'll note that our "leading" things are in bold, similar to both the dominant listing for iron and the Xoh's listing for fine pottery)

Edit: Forgot to quote the WoG:
Academia Nut said:
It's a placeholder for timing purposes. At the end of this turn you gain +0 Diplo, and next midturn you gain +3.
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VoidZero said:
What is Crow but a carrion eater? An animal that feast on the dead. You claim every dropping as insight of wisdom, yet those are only good for soil nutrients. Your family starves while you pursue idle thoughts, empty and vain. No, the earth and forest and fields and herds and orchard are the true root of our people; and you are a mere leaf.
:mob:
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A mere leaf! HA!
Your arrogance shows your foolishness.

The earth, forests, fields and herds are plenty good for a single man, but for a nation? It is not enough!

Crow showed us how to question ourselves and innovate, from that was drawn so many new ideas which have enriched our people.

A farmer is someone to be respected, but without someone to think of new ideas to improve his life and society he will only be prey for the first bandit, or put at the mercy of the first plague that ravages his body.

My family will not starve, for I would have already thought of a new way to feed them whilst you still till your fields! Whilst you still crawl in the dirt and filth like a maggot!

So stick your head down, just work all your life and be content with what you have, forget dreams, forget knowledge, forget innovation. Sit there and breed, sit there and feast and then stay the same all your life, whilst under Crow, the entire world will pass you by.
 
@veekie My point was that the language you use apparently portrays things you did not intend, and you need to be careful of this.
 
Oh, and my vote:

[X] [Temple] Crow
[X] [Crow] Alien but knowable
[X] [Boats] Not the boats, but where they are made
[X] [Drought] Weed out troublemakers (Main Restore Order)
[X] [CA] Bring in whoever comes (Chance of stability loss, +2 Econ)

Crow + alien but knowable + attaching the Library to the Temple = proto university. Remember two things: 1) The Library is Observance linked - it's explicitly about preserving "Ideas, not records". 2) We have the constant 1 mysticism drain from Love of Wisdom due to the costs of educating our Shamans. Having this proto university is, I think, the best chance we have of negating that drain.
 
Abby Normal said:
AN's actually already answered about this, we're getting 3 diplo the next midturn, with that likely being either "1 for leading in dyes, 1 for leading in salt, 1 for leading in wine when we start producing that" or "1 for leading in dyes, 1 for leading in salt, 1 base"
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Uhhh... no, you need to be dominant to get the bonus. Leading just tells you that you have the largest market share but you need to expand trade or production to reach dominant. Will have to adjust the labelling. That +3 is for the stuff you're going to get from your actions, not +3 per turn. That would go into the square brackets.
 
Hah, I am pretty happy, we are finally getting some casus belli.

Anyone who dare challenge our monopoly on trade will be grounded into dust!

Wagggghhhhhh!!!:D
 
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