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Paths of Civilization

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[X][Main] The Mountain
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
[X][Secondary] Black Soil
[X][Kick] The Mountain

Honestly, metal is overrated, it's better to improve our agriculture. "But Random, how will building a bigass mountain improve our agriculture? It's completely useless!" And that's where you're wrong, Strawman SV'er I just created! Read this!
 
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notgreat said:
I'd prefer [Main] Salt Gift, but we've been told that they prefer [Secondary] actions, and IDK what the last action would be. Maybe even do a normal [Main] Expand Econ which would get doubled to 2x [Main] which would be really nice.
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The problem with salt gift is it only goes along trade routes. Currently that is HK, notAztecs, TH, and maybe that random exploratory caravan. SW twits are being twits. Metal Workers are under occupation by those &$%!$ nomads and that is really all of them.

Granted the reaction of that caravan to being gifted stupid amounts of salt would be hillarious.
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Wow, that is indeed a random plan Random Member... I did not see that coming.
 
Random Member said:
[X][Main] The Mountain
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
[X][Secondary] Black Soil
[X][Kick] The Mountain

Honestly, metal is overrated, it's better to improve our agriculture. "But Random, how will building a bigass mountain improve our agriculte? It's completely useless!" And that's where you're wrong, Strawman SV'er I just created! Read this!
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Ok, I'll admit it. That's actually one of the more creative arguments in support of a megaproject. Maybe when metal is done :p
 
Necratoid said:
The problem with salt gift is it only goes along trade routes. Currently that is HK, notAztecs, TH, and maybe that random exploratory caravan. SW twits are being twits. Metal Workers are under occupation by those &$%!$ nomads and that is really all of them.

Granted the reaction of that caravan to being gifted stupid amounts of salt would be hillarious.
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Wow, that is indeed a random plan Random Member... I did not see that coming.
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Actually, AN has specifically said we can salt gift anybody we know the location of.
 
Random Member said:
[X][Main] The Mountain
[X][Secondary] Change Policy - Megaproject Support
[X][Secondary] Black Soil
[X][Kick] The Mountain

Honestly, metal is overrated, it's better to improve our agriculture. "But Random, how will building a bigass mountain improve our agriculte? It's completely useless!" And that's where you're wrong, Strawman SV'er I just created! Read this!
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The megaproject can be done later while the challenge cannot, and it's more than just metal. It may turbocharge Ymaryn scientific thoughts.
 
tryrar said:
Actually, AN has specifically said we can salt gift anybody we know the location of.
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We can try to anyway. We tried to salt gift the TS at one point and they sent it to the TH guys. Salt Gifting the Metal Workers would just being sending it to those %@^&!@ nomads so is right out. We can try to salt gift those SW twits, but we don't really know if that would be a terrible idea, good idea, a bad idea, or a grand idea.

Up to the provinces anyway.
 
Necratoid said:
We can try to anyway. We tried to salt gift the TS at one point and they sent it to the TH guys. Salt Gifting the Metal Workers would just being sending it to those %@^&!@ nomads so is right out. We can try to salt gift those SW twits, but we don't really know if that would be a terrible idea, good idea, a bad idea, or a grand idea.

Up to the provinces anyway.
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Wasn't that a trade mission instead of a salt gift? And it only went to the TH because the TH had taken over the TS.
 
Marlin said:
Wasn't that a trade mission instead of a salt gift? And it only went to the TH because the TH had taken over the TS.
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Exactly like those @&#!(&^ nomads have occupied the Metal Workers. I think it was the TS portion of the salt gift during the second female Admin hero's term. It was how we figured out they had gotten vassalized in the first place. Easy enough to check, but its the precedent of regifting to the overlord I'm concerned with.
 
@Academia Nut Where would the mountain be? Because if we can stick it out on the Steppes, it might be worth it. Just carve into it: No Non-allied Nomads beyond this point.
 
When we finish this belief challenge I'm going to start gunning for aqueduct building followed by the library. Those two projects combined offer the greatest benefit to our civilization in the mid to long term.

Aqueducts promote health and longevity of all age cohorts, and also promotes increased food production. This ends up producing larger population growth in our established and built out cities and regions. Infant mortality drops and the elderly live longer. While a larger elderly population can cause some issues, so long as they are passing on their knowledge they are of net benefit. In long term, this allows us to out grow our neighbors. We bounce back from attack faster and we surpass them faster. (I think we already have, in straight population.)

@Academia Nut what does our population look like these days compared to our neighbors?

The library is of fairly obvious benefit. The ability and the concept of long term storage of knowledge that is made public or even semi public is of immense benefit. IIRC the chiefs are basically burying old records with markers so they can be retrieved later. This is hilariously backwards. We need that library.
 
Necratoid said:
I've only did a quick 3 page look back so I may be missing some things, but I think the issue is that absorbing the Stallions absorbs their economy and military points. Unless they and/or the main government get creamed militarily first that means having too much military again and needing to have a war to burn the excess troops off on or instantly founding a March. I don't expect the Stallions to end up transferring military one-to-one here, but unless there is a March slot open then it'll mean the military over load thing happens again.

So you'd be better off arguing that absorb the stallions and then make the Eastern March. [Insert the settling towards the TH spiel here]

Your plan is:
[] [Main] Build Iron Mine
[] [Secondary] Change Policy - Restoration
[] [Secondary] Expand Forest

Your problem here is four fold:
-First, your suggesting doing economy actions with the main government slots... that is not a popular action plan. There are minions to do that for us.
-Second, a secondary grand sacrifice is only -2 economy and picking iron tools made expand economy actions generate +2 economy.
-Three, we need more mysticism to complete things so the Policy -Balanced handles that problem for us.
-Four, you have angered the Stability faction and they are the current leading persistent faction around here. It's like arguing against building pyramid to Pandomonious Ivy... your committing blasphemy against their cause.
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Absorb and March in the same turn ;)

The mountain would be cool if we had a good chance of building one tall enough to cause rain, and if the stone we'd harvest wouldn't just be tearing down other mountains/hills.

We could just desurface and rebuild an existing mountain I guess.

Edit: @pbluekan I'd rather library than all of the aqueducts, but if you mean for us to do 1 aqueduct then the Library that would be fine, redcoaast would be a good choice. 2 mains = eight Econ but a finished aqueduct vs Library which costs 1 main and whatever the stats are. I.eevery aqueduct is damaging in a rapid burst as opposed to the Library which provides greater civ benefits at a slower pace for the same cost.
 
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Something will probably explode this mid turn. Let's keep it to a small explosion as best we can.

If in the worst case we end up at 0 Stability due to a hit we have to take we will still have quite a bit of econ due to the mine.

So in the project turn we can do this

Main Study Tailings (-1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Stability)
Secondary Grand Sacrifice
Secondary Grand Sacrifice x2 (-3 Econ, +2 Stability)

Before province actions we will be at Stability 1. We have confirmation from AN that the provinces are not run by idiots (Thank you symphony and our other social traits!)
and they do want to help us finish, so they will pick Study Health if nothing is still really on fire from the mid turn.

With that we can go through the next mid turn with grace, shit may go wrong there again but we've only very rarely had a a sequence of bad mid turns.

So on the final turn we get this.

Main Study Metal (-1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Stability)
Secondary Grand Sacrifice
Secondary Grand Sacrifice x2 (-3 Econ, +2 Stability)

We're done and at Stability 2.

Say nothing explodes in the coming mid turn such that we need to switch away from balanced or such.

Main Study Tailings (-1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Stability)
Secondary Grand Sacrifice (-2 Econ, +1 Stability)
Secondary Free

Say we do not lose a Stability in the coming mid turn. We will be at Stability 1 and end at Stability 1 with this. But we have far more flexibility to respond by doing this and we never dip into negative Stability on this turn. And the Provinces take Study Health this turn.

Then the next mid turn comes. Something will probably have exploded and we are hovering around Stability 0.

So next turn we do

Main Study Metal (-1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Stability)
Secondary Grand Sacrifice (-2 Econ, +1 Stability)
Secondary Free

Boom, we're done and probably never dipped below 0 Stability.

If we are concerned about touching even briefly negative stability, perhaps we have good fortune in the mid turn and gain +1 Stability.
(For those not concerned about negative Stability and want to get this done as fast as possible we don't need plus one Stability to do this)


Main Study Tailings (-1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Stability)
Secondary Study Metal
Secondary Study Metal x2 (-1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Stability)

We will +90% have the Mysticism to do this, we'll be at Mysticism 0 probably but them's the breaks in this case. The Provinces do Study Health and we are done on turn two with either Stability 0 or -1 depending on what happened.

If we want to be super double sure we get it all done we can do this. Neutral on the mid turn in terms of Stability.

Main Study Tailings (-1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Stability)
Secondary Study Health
Secondary Study Health x2 (-1 Econ)

So we are now at Stability 0. And the Provinces may double up on health, oh well, us doing it probably frees them up to do something else.

The next mid turn will probably be neutral.

So we do this in the final turn.
Main Study Metal (-1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Stability)
Secondary Grand Sacrifice
Secondary Grand Sacrifice x2 (-3 Econ, +2 Stability)

We finish the Challenge at probably 0 Mysticism and Stability 1.
These are good ways to do this Challenge based on the current leading vote and strangeness that may happen in the mid turn.
 
BungieONI said:
These are good ways to do this Challenge based on the current leading vote and strangeness that may happen in the mid turn.
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I'm against any plan that doesn't do the twin study action as the main for the main government on principle. I agree with veekie that it should be study tailings/health on the same turn. This turns plan is, uninterrupted, leaving us at 1 stab. We don't need to get to three stab at the end... I would think actively disproving a stability eating belief would cause a stab gain as an end cap.
 
Necratoid said:
I'm against any plan that doesn't do the twin study action as the main for the main government on principle. I agree with veekie that it should be study tailings/health on the same turn. This turns plan is, uninterrupted, leaving us at 1 stab. We don't need to get to three stab at the end... I would think actively disproving a stability eating belief cause a stab gain as an end cap.
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Going into negatives while disproving may well hurt the effort because people get ~anxious~.
Besides, we need some stability in case of some disaster; it's been a long time since the last comet/plague.
 
pbluekan said:
Honestly, it's not a trade route that is going to remain open. We got lucky, and we might get some cool stuff out of it, but it isn't going to be a worthwhile trade opportunity with the nomads in the way.

We are infinitely better off looking south, south-west, and west. We should be looking to assimilate or annex the people along the coast to the southwest and take territory from the HK when they next collapse into infighting. Expanding further north is a recipe for continued and more draining conflict with the nomads.
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That's why I'm hoping they do it this turn, since it's unlikely the route will remain open longer than one turn. Two at most.

For expansion, we've expanded as far north as we want at this time. The marches will probably expand further on there own, probably up the Blackriver since that is relatively easy to access via boats.
 
ctulhuslp said:
Going into negatives while disproving may well hurt the effort because people get ~anxious~.
Besides, we need some stability in case of some disaster; it's been a long time since the last comet/plague.
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A bit too long as well in my opinion, though I think we have maybe one turn of space.

So if you are concerned about stability take the Stability Plus! Plan of

Main Study Tailings (-1 Econ, -2 Mysticism, -1 Stability)
Secondary Grand Sacrifice
Secondary Grand Sacrifice x2 (-3 Econ, +2 Stability)

+90% guarantee that we will be at Stability 1. Stability -2 hits are rare which is why I say +90%.
 
BungieONI said:
A bit too long as well in my opinion, though I think we have maybe one turn of space.
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Two points:
  1. This is superstitious thinking. Kind of reverse gamblers fallacy.
  2. If you think we're about due for a plague or comet with one turn of space, we should probably finish the challenge ASAP? A comet or plague while studying metal would probably completely undo everything we've done on this.
 
pblur said:
Two points:
  1. This is superstitious thinking. Kind of reverse gamblers fallacy.
  2. If you think we're about due for a plague or comet with one turn of space, we should probably finish the challenge ASAP? A comet or plague while studying metal would probably completely undo everything we've done on this.
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That's....a good point, I guess.
With our luck, this is exactly what's going to happen. :V
 
ctulhuslp said:
Going into negatives while disproving may well hurt the effort because people get ~anxious~.
Besides, we need some stability in case of some disaster; it's been a long time since the last comet/plague.
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We end at 1 this turn (ignoring midturn results). Next turn we do the duel study turn and its at one (ignoring midturn results and any results/gains from them). That means neutral stab. Third turn we get an action free and completion. A grand sac brings us up to +1 stab again.

Getting to 3 stab then completing a quest chain about a metal curse/unluck belief being altered should be a stabilizing event.

So I'm risking 0 stab not negative stab. Quest results unknown. Spamming Grand Sacs could also convince The People its a good idea to spam grand sacs all the time to the point the making it a annual festival or something else wasteful.
pblur said:
What principle? :confused:
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Delegating main quest objectives. It inspires people to make that standard and then people count on that in their plans. That is when things get sloppy.
 
pblur said:
Two points:
  1. This is superstitious thinking. Kind of reverse gamblers fallacy.
  2. If you think we're about due for a plague or comet with one turn of space, we should probably finish the challenge ASAP? A comet or plague while studying metal would probably completely undo everything we've done on this.
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Totally true, which is why I am in support of the dual study turn and leaving Health to the provinces.

I'm just realistic and know that I probably can't convince the thread to go for it so I provide another option I think will work but consider inferior.

I'm kinda confused actually that a lot of people don't seem to get it very frequently that what I'm doing here with the post you quoted and others like it is making suggestions. Not saying "We MUST do this and only this one thing or everything will go to shit". *snerk* I'm very clear when I state that kinda thing. If it's just a case of people not remembering my position because I didn't make it clear I apologize. If it's a case of people just forgetting it in the fast pace of the thread well there's not a lot I can do about that except grin and repeat myself.
 
Necratoid said:
We end at 1 this turn (ignoring midturn results). Next turn we do the duel study turn and its at one (ignoring midturn results and any results/gains from them). That means neutral stab. Third turn we get an action free and completion. A grand sac brings us up to +1 stab again.

Getting to 3 stab then completing a quest chain about a metal curse/unluck belief being altered should be a stabilizing event.

So I'm risking 0 stab not negative stab. Quest results unknown. Spamming Grand Sacs could also convince The People its a good idea to spam grand sacs all the time to the point the making it a annual festival or something else wasteful.

Delegating main quest objectives. It inspires people to make that standard and then people count on that in their plans. That is when things get sloppy.
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We do end at 1 Stability this turn when ignoring mid turn results (Which I personally find distasteful but eh), actual dual study is a -2 Stability hit so your math is bunk. Though careful reading makes me think you meant Study Health plus Tailings/Metal.

Which is not the Dual Study like Candesce said that the thread is discussing.

Unless you missed it and think we have to do whichever of Tailings or Metal we do with the Study Health, again in order to fulfill the individual requirement? Which we don't, and in that case the math is actually bunk.
 
BungieONI said:
Totally true, which is why I am in support of the dual study turn and leaving Health to the provinces.

I'm just realistic and know that I probably can't convince the thread to go for it so I provide another option I think will work but consider inferior.
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My evaluation on this thread is different from yours. If nothing comes up in the update, I expect we'll finish next turn.
 
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