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Paths of Civilization

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notgreat said:
edit: Staying on Offensive is actually scarily likely to cause us to get close to the danger-high limit for Martial. They could 2x Main Build Chariots for +8 Martial and do literally whatever else they wanted and we're well above our expected red zone.
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My understanding is that the provinces are not idiots and therefore will not build martial into overflowing as they would with other stats. This is useful because it means they'll likely pick up either some more specialists, pick up Expand Warriors which could improve mass combat doctrine, or Expand Economy actions.
 
Amador said:
Expand Snail Cultivation for more Diplo and other effects.
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Diplo is currently overflowing into Art.
Snails:
* M: -2 Econ, +3 Diplo, potential additional effects
Art Patronage:
* M: -2 Econ, +3 Art, +1 Prestige, potential innovations

Unless you really want the snail's additional effects instead of art's, you can get a free +1 prestige. Either way it eats into the econ that provinces can use for Restoration, but that's not a huge deal.
That being said our Art is actually in a reasonable position right now, I'd recommend boosting our econ more since that will provide more fuel for all the other actions we can take.

@Academia Nut
Will our provinces avoid overflowing Martial?
If so and there are no available War Missions, what will they do if we remain on Policy - Offensive?
 
Not going to lie, the expand snail cultivation has me scratching my head considering we're overflowing with diplo. We don't particularly need art right this second do we? And if it's innovations your after boats would probably be better right?
 
DkArthas said:
[X] [Main] Expand Snail Cultivation
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Restoration
[X] [Secondary] Expand Economy
[X] Challenge belief (Begins event chain)

Meh, Humility was a shit value anyway.

Too bad we didn't get that casus belli generator trait.
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I suspect Humility was doing a lot to clamp down on a bunch of stupid political bullshit and vying for power - and wastes of resources, like those new megaprojects. (Fucking pyramids don't do anything.)

The Casus Belli generator is only useful if we actually want something from another country, and I don't think the thread will want to be invading anywhere already claimed by another polity for a long time - there's more than enough unclaimed land for now. +1 Econ per exapnd Econ is nothing to sneeze at - remember, our provinces will take that action quite a lot!

VoidZero said:
Come to think of it, had our non aligned shamans been traveling out of our territory?

If so... other civs have acquired snippets of our knowledge.

Also, concern rising as ladders exists for long time. Nomads do have means of scaling the walls. Maybe expand regular military instead of specialist and chariots.
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No, we've had ladders for a long time. The nomads with no fixed abodes or buildings do not. Pls no scaremongering.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
there's more than enough unclaimed land for now
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Actually, we're rapidly running out of land. North is covered in nomads but has a little bit of marginal land left. West is a little bit open, but still vulnerable to nomads and just a little more expansion and we hit the TS. South is the HK and the Hathatyn/Southern Hill People, so that's out.

Anyway, here's the current action costs for each stat:
Current stat valuation: (secondary action equivalents to get +1 of that stat)
Diplo ~1 ([Main] New Trails costs the same but gives +1 diplo. Otherwise ~1.5 per. Get +1/turn from Salterns)
Econ 0.5 (Expand Economy)
Martial 0.75 ([Main] Build Chariots = 3 actions in, 4 martial out.)

Stability ~2
RoO = 1.52 (2 actions in, 1.32 out but restricted and random. Assumes GG is 10%). Secondary is 1.43 but much more random
Festival = 2 (or 3) (2 actions + (2 econ=1 action) in, 1 stability + 1 art out)
Sacrifice = 1.75 main, 2 secondary

Legitimacy 3 (2 art+1 action in, 1 legitimacy out. Main: 5.5 action-equivalent in, but get ~2 from stability and (0.5?) from presteige)

Centralization 0 (or 0.5) (Enforce Law cost 1 action, gives 2 centralization and 1 action of stability Costs 1.5 via Secondary New Trails)
Hierarchy ??? (no actions modify)

Art 0.75 (1 econ + [Secondary] Art Patronage)
Mysticism 1 (Study Stars, goes to ~1.5 if we need to Expand Holy SItes)
Prestiege ?? 1 (or 4) ([Main] Art Patronage, costs 4 but get 3 actions of art as well)
And here's my priority list:
Critical Priority​

1) Safe stat buffers
The bolded values are the ones that I consider safe, with our current values for comparison.
General
Diplomacy 14/5 MAX
Economy 7/6 GOOD
Martial 7/6 GOOD

Stability
Stability -2/2 HORRIBLY INCREDIBLY BAD, IMMEDIATE FIX REQUIRED
Legitimacy 3/3 MAX

Organizational (for our current civ type)
Centralization 3/3 OK
Hierarchy 6/5 GOOD

Cultural
Art 6/5 GOOD
Mysticism 4/5 BAD
Prestige 8/??? (want 3 buffer plus 10 per Periphery State)
Expected cost: ~8 actions Stability. The rest will probably be fixed as bonuses from other actions.


High Priority​
1) The Library
Seriously, I want this megaproject. It sounds amazing for us.
Expected cost: 8-12 direct actions, 10-14 stats for 18-26 total actions.

2) Periphery States
These things are really, really useful.
Expected cost: 2 direct actions, 4-8 stats for 6-10 total actions
Repeatable every 10 prestige.

3) Safer Stats
Add 1 more to all values listed above. (except legitimacy due to cap)

Medium Priority​
1) Other Megaprojects
Expected cost:
Dam: 10-14 direct actions, 2-4 stats for 12-18 total actions
PttS: 14-20 direct actions, 5-7ish stats for 19-27ish total actions

2) Surveys (especially for more metal)
One of Iron's biggest bonuses is how common it is. Find more iron mines (and other resources), then exploit them.
Expected cost: 1-3 actions, repeatable.

3) Golden Age 2.0
Yeah, those things are cool. Let's get another one.
After restoring Stability and Legitimacy, we need to chose a non-diplo stat to max. Either Art or Mysticism is likely the easiest.

Low Priority​
1) Black Soil
An easy action to take, but we don't think it'll be that useful either since it sounds like we have enough for most uses right now.
Expected cost: 1-2 actions

2) Defensive measures
We're fairly well protected, but more definitely doesn't hurt.
Expected cost: lots of actions

3) Expand Forest everywhere
To fit our thematics and it's a useful choice anyway. Probable synergy with "Study Forest"
Expected cost: 1-2 actions, repeatable

4) Science!
All the "Study X" actions. (Temporary synergies raise the priority of that specific action)
Expected cost: 1-2 actions, repeatable
 
[X]Challenge belief (Begins event chain)
[X][Main]Grand Sacrifice
[X][Secondary] Change Policy Balanced
[X][Secondary] Expand Forest - Stallion Tribes
 
[X] Challenge belief (Begins event chain)
[X][Main] Grand Sacrifice
[X][Secondary] Expand Forest - Stallion Tribes
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Defense

We need better fortifications. Next we should develop iron more, grow the economy, and expand the military. After that hopefully we'll finally get around to finishing that Library megaproject.
 
Karugus said:
Not going to lie, the expand snail cultivation has me scratching my head considering we're overflowing with diplo. We don't particularly need art right this second do we? And if it's innovations your after boats would probably be better right?
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More Boats only has a tiny chance of innovations and Main Art Patronage will probably lead to better crafting techniques.
 
Huh, I can see how the previous update was a problem. Reading it, it looks like the rolled outcome was.

"Nomads get eradicated. Somehow, they still manage to bypass the march and deal significant Economy damage to your core despite the March supposed to stop that, and despite them getting stopped dead at the march." Like, what I'm seeing is that their final result before their hero units showed up was terrible, and they basically blew out their Martial score fighting us, but the presence of those Hero Units pushed their final outcome to a result that should have been impossible to achieve (I can see them being at Martial 0--or less--before the Hero Unit modifiers showed up)

Basically, they stacked their two hero units (And the fact that the older one was still alive and still able to participate in battle is telling, I was joking when I commented on the secret immortality trait!), and those modifiers basically meant that despite being technically wiped out on the field of battle, they still came out ahead.

Hence, the whole 'You wipe them out, but a third of their number somehow tactical genius through the March and raid your heartlands, and then vanish into the mists of time afterwards' result.

In other words, Hero units are bullshit, double stacked Martial heroes create actual fucking magic and turn a blowout into a "We still win anyway despite being wiped out on the field of battle, because we could get a token victory and preserve our core, so we'll be even stronger in the next generation" We failed to catch them because there was nothing to catch, they dispersed because the units that attacked us don't actually exist, but were only going because of weird system mechanic interactions that happen when you get to stack heroes on a single task that they're good at, which results in creating phantom units that vanish the moment the turn ends, but after they've deposited their gains into their own civ--basically, when hero units are supposed to be rare as fuck and influential because of that, having two in the same field that actually get along well enough leads to the system not knowing what the fuck. It's like Ghenghis Khan and Atilla the Hun existed at the same time and were sworn brothers.

God help us if they spawn a third heroic general, or just start spawning them regularly now.
 
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[X] Modify belief (WotG begins to become a Value rather than Debilitating Belief)
[X] [Main] Grand Sacrifice
[X] [Secondary] Expand Forest - Stallion Tribes
[X] [Secondary] Change Policy - Defense
 
VoidZero said:
I wasn't attempting to sway votes. Besides falling some trees to put up a few laddees are way easier than making chariots. Don't underestimate the competition, or we will be blindsided.
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Sure, and I could totally see any of our more organised neighbours doing it - I just don't think the nomads will bother.

hylas240 said:
@Academia Nut What purpose does the Great Mountain mega project serve?
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It's a result of our losing the Humility trait - a great big monument that confers no actual bonus beyond Prestige. If we really want prestige that much, we should just get a Golden Age going and periodically hand out Salt Gifts. The Palace and the Temple probably have some other uses, but it'll be mainly prestige again.
 
Deadly Snark said:
Better then them spawning a Modu Chanyu I feel. Because if they did, they'd have united the Steppe Tribes into an United Confederate Empire that will last centuries, instead of the easily fragmented coalitions they have no.
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Fortunately, I think their culture doesn't really support those kind of Diplomatic/Administrator Heroes, even if they shit out Martial Heroes with annoying regularity.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
The Palace and the Temple probably have some other uses, but it'll be mainly prestige again.
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Palace and Temple are actually phenomenally good and useful.

Palace would give an administrative bonus as all the major paperwork would flow to it, and all the bureaucratic records would be in there. Not only that, but Palaces began as huge supply depots that could store enormous amounts of food that can be doled out in times of famine.

Temple helps to get written records of myths, legends, traditions and discovery stored and preserved. Meaning we'll recall for more of our history overtime, and it'll give Writing a kick. Because Priests were the ones who truly began to use words for abstract concepts and to simplify some ideas as they were the ones who kept writing down all the stories and myths, which forced them to come up with words that can represent concepts that were normally only verbal.
 
Deadly Snark said:
Palace and Temple are actually phenomenally good and useful.

Palace would give an administrative bonus as all the major paperwork would flow to it, and all the bureaucratic records would be in there. Not only that, but Palaces began as huge supply depots that could store enormous amounts of food that can be doled out in times of famine.

Temple helps to get written records of myths, legends, traditions and discovery stored and preserved. Meaning we'll recall for more of our history overtime, and it'll give Writing a kick. Because Priests were the ones who truly began to use words for abstract concepts and to simplify some ideas as they were the ones who kept writing down all the stories and myths, which forced them to come up with words that can represent concepts that were normally only verbal.
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We don't have any writing, and neither of the descriptions indicate that any of what you've just said is the case. We already keep records (on stone tablets, that we bury) - if we want to record more than that, that's what the Library is for.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
It's a result of our losing the Humility trait - a great big monument that confers no actual bonus beyond Prestige. If we really want prestige that much, we should just get a Golden Age going and periodically hand out Salt Gifts. The Palace and the Temple probably have some other uses, but it'll be mainly prestige again.
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AN said it was iron tech that unlocked the new megaprojects in spite of not having the social prereqs. I don't think humility had anything to do with it.
 
Deathbybunnies said:
We don't have any writing, and neither of the descriptions indicate that any of what you've just said is the case. We already keep records (on stone tablets, that we bury) - if we want to record more than that, that's what the Library is for.
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The Grand Palace description literally says "Stockpile for the People's use."

And I'm simply telling you what kind of things Temples and Palaces were used for/what kind of need led to their creation in the first place.
 
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