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Paths of Civilization

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notgreat said:
Problem: Our people don't do token efforts. They want blood, and they'll either get it or get their Honorable Death trying.
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tenchifew said:
Token effort?
They want blood.

They will chase the nomads to the hilt, with or without the weapons.
Only with the weapons can they win without significant losses.
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And that is fine too. The remaining martial points will deplete both our and their warriors. We can throw up another batch of warrior next turn. They can't, since their nomad friends are dead with hero core almost all dead too.

That's the charm of farming civilization, it's easy to repopulate with surplus food.
 
tenchifew said:
No, he did not.
As you, just a few posts back, said yourself, it is only about this raid.
They still have at least one hero.
He can recruit new nomads and hit us next turn.
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Yes, soon as in this turn.

Next turn, our stuff are in place already.
We have 8 econ, for our province to expand our army like crazy. I expect we get a +8~+12 martial next turn.

Question is, do we need the Martial right this second?
I'm saying, it's not gonna help much in short term.

If you wanna chase nomads, you don't really have much time to wait for the iron weapons to come out.
 
VoidZero said:
And that is fine too. The remaining martial points will deplete both our and their warriors. We can throw up another batch of warrior next turn. They can't, since their nomad friends are dead with hero core almost all dead too.

That's the charm of farming civilization, it's easy to repopulate with surplus food.
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That would be good...
Had AN not explicitly said that nomads are all but endless, and a nomad hero can "recruit" a new batch easily.

So no, the nomads can get new people even easier than us.
 
So I read the update and avoided all the salt for my own sanity.

Is the plan next turn something along the lines of.

Main Grand Sacrifice
Secondary War Mission Nomads/Something else perhaps an expand Econ
Secondary Build Chariots

Get's us back to 0 Stability and we have max Legitimacy again.
 
notgreat said:
Once we end up at ~1-2 martial and have no econ or mysticism they'll switch to expand econ.
We'll also probably be dead from lack of martial if anyone attacks, but they'll still switch.

Problem: Our people don't do token efforts. They want blood, and they'll either get it or get their Honorable Death trying.
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They'll switch to War missions till all our armies are dead, before they go for Econ.
 
Kiba said:
We get 3 martial at the end of the turn/beginning of next turn?
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We're at 5 + 1, the choice for tools still provides +2 martial.

ETA50M said:
It's not fear mongering when 8 marital couldn't handle a normal army with our defensive bonus and the Stallion Tribes yet you expect the 1/3 veteran army with two heor units whi have shown to go through our walls like butter the first time they burned down the March. It's not fear mongering when they succeed twice in a row in burning down parts of our lands successfully and getting deeper each and every time.
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They have 1/3 their force.

Northshore didn't have walls nor soldiers.

I suppose it's true that they succeeded twice in burning farms in our lands. If we want to prevent them from getting deeper we'll have to invest in thicker forests and more walls.

@tenchifew Wasn't talking to you.
 
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I feel we need to put down this threat as soon as possible for as long as possible then focus on better things.

Plus using the metal weapons will definitely help us win and help our people get over the metal superstition because obviously the spirits want us to kill the nomads and therefore want us to have metal.
 
2xMachina said:
Yes, soon as in this turn.

Next turn, our stuff are in place already.
We have 8 econ, for our province to expand our army like crazy. I expect we get a +8~+12 martial next turn.

Question is, do we need the Martial right this second?
I'm saying, it's not gonna help much in short term.

If you wanna chase nomads, you don't really have much time to wait for the iron weapons to come out.
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...
And now you are explicity arguing in bad faith.

These are weapons that were being built this half turn.

These are weapons our warriors will be picking up before going out.

Otherwise this point of decision just would not make any sense.
 
Umi-san said:
We're at 5 + 1, the choice for tools still provides +2 martial.


They have 1/3 their force.

Northshore didn't have walls nor soldiers.

I suppose it's true that they succeeded twice in burning farms in our lands. If we want to prevent them from getting deeper we'll have to invest in thicker forests and more walls.
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And a March! :D

The NE March will firmly close that door they came through.
 
tenchifew said:
That would be good...
Had AN not explicitly said that nomads are all but endless, and a nomad hero can "recruit" a new batch easily.

So no, the nomads can get new people even easier than us.
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Then we will be arguing which category the hero son is in. Martial or dipo or admin. If his all three then not much we can do. None of our martial options can protect against hero crit.

Also, in the event that iron weapon warriors got mauled again; nomads will have iron weapons. Not a good idea.
 
Hopefully if we slaughter the hell out of the nomads we build up our legend among our neighbors. Running after our bitter enemy with every warrior holding a weapon of the gods.
 
VoidZero said:
Then we will be arguing which category the hero son is in. Martial or dipo or admin. If his all three then not much we can do. None of our martial options can protect against hero crit.

Also, in the event that iron weapon warriors got mauled again; nomads will have iron weapons. Not a good idea.
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...
nomad recruiting is conquering and recruiting the other tribes with a spear.
He is a martial hero.
He does not need anything else.

The "recruitment" was described by AN the update before last.

And, no, they won't.
He has about 5 martial left, he will not be able to overcome martial 13.
 
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Umi-san said:
We're at 5 + 1, the choice for tools still provides +2 martial.


They have 1/3 their force.

Northshore didn't have walls nor soldiers.

I suppose it's true that they succeeded twice in burning farms in our lands. If we want to prevent them from getting deeper we'll have to invest in thicker forests and more walls.
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The first time they burned the March the update even said the nomads were taking down walls easily so yeah Stonepen would be burned down as well. Your arguing with information and facts that have already been stated. Fact 1: The nomads can go through our current walls. Fact 2: They bruend down the March, Northshore and Blackriver. Fact 3: Sending our remaining army to their favoured environment and two hero units will crush us. Fact 4: With a no to little army remaining they will go on a tear through Stonepen and our remaining provinces. Fact 5: The map even says endless nomads and after such a successful raid they will get even more men to their banner. Fact 6: AN said Iron wepaosn will stop all raids thus stopping all econ loss from raids. Fact 7: Nomad raids equal econ loss. Fact 8: Offensive policy has a strong lead so we will be sending our warriors out rather then keeping them close for defense.
 
ETA50M said:
So you pick offensive policy which will send our 8 martial army to the steppes where we have no defensive bonus up against two hero units and and the strongest army we seen thus far and expect them to survive?
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I expect them to go on a wild goose chase, because the masses want them to.

Iron weapons won't help them any, other than making us lose iron weapons to them.
They might die, they might return empty handed, I don't really care

With iron tooling, and iron weapons next turn, we can re-raise our army immediately.
We have -1Econ/+2Martial option pre-iron weapons. With? prob -1Econ/+3Martial options

Which our provinces will take, and raise a size 12 Martial Army in 1 turn. From 0.

You know what?
[X] Tools (+8 Econ, +2 Martial, ???)
[X] Restore order (Main usage)
[X] Defensive (-1 Stability)
[X] Yes (+1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, Martial focused character becomes king)

1st step to not killing our army.
 
VoidZero said:
Then we will be arguing which category the hero son is in. Martial or dipo or admin. If his all three then not much we can do. None of our martial options can protect against hero crit.

Also, in the event that iron weapon warriors got mauled again; nomads will have iron weapons. Not a good idea.
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If we win though we likely get some of our loot back that he stole from us, plus we are free from the nomads for generations (probably 3 or 4 full turns) and can use that time to expand, build up and complete megaprojects.
 
ETA50M said:
The first time they burned the March the update even said the nomads were taking down walls easily so yeah Stonepen would be burned down as well. Your arguing with information and facts that have already been stated. Fact 1: The nomads can go through our current walls. Fact 2: They bruend down the March, Northshore and Blackriver. Fact 3: Sending our remaining army to their favoured environment and two hero units will crush us. Fact 4: With a no to little army remaining they will go on a tear through Stonepen and our remaining provinces. Fact 5: The map even says endless nomads and after such a successful raid they will get even more men to their banner. Fact 6: AN said Iron wepaosn will stop all raids thus stopping all econ loss from raids. Fact 7: Nomad raids equal econ loss. Fact 8: Offensive policy has a strong lead so we will be sending our warriors out rather then keeping them close for defense.
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1) false; the nomads were taking down watchtowers easily
2) false; blackriver untouched, ST less touched than last time
3) dependent on other facts and a roll
4) dependent on how large their remaining force is
5) they need to succeed in forcing/diplo-ing more nomads to their side, which means they can't insta-raid us
6) stop all raids from this immediate period, only
7) depends on our martial + fortified area
8) and? this is literally what we're arguing about.
 
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ETA50M said:
The first time they burned the March the update even said the nomads were taking down walls easily so yeah Stonepen would be burned down as well. Your arguing with information and facts that have already been stated. Fact 1: The nomads can go through our current walls. Fact 2: They bruend down the March, Northshore and Blackriver. Fact 3: Sending our remaining army to their favoured environment and two hero units will crush us. Fact 4: With a no to little army remaining they will go on a tear through Stonepen and our remaining provinces. Fact 5: The map even says endless nomads and after such a successful raid they will get even more men to their banner. Fact 6: AN said Iron wepaosn will stop all raids thus stopping all econ loss from raids. Fact 7: Nomad raids equal econ loss. Fact 8: Offensive policy has a strong lead so we will be sending our warriors out rather then keeping them close for defense.
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Um no the nomads did not get past ANY of our walls in fact walls are the only reason we still have a March since the nomads couldn't get past them.
 
Academia Nut said:
and for many any arguments towards futility or that it would cripple the People if they continued to fight were merely signs of defeatism.
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If we don't get any bonuses to our fighting, those of our people arguing for Defensive will be proven right.

And on further retrospect, I absolutely want to kill those nomads and rescue our people. Returning to my original vote, since Legitimacy 1 sucks but it guarantees we survive and are in a very strong position aside from needing to Proclaim Glory a few times.

[X] Weapons (+2 Econ, +8 Martial, ???)
[X] Restore order (Main usage)
[X] Offensive (+1 Stability)
[X] Yes (+1 Stability, -1 Legitimacy, Martial focused character becomes king)
78% Stability 1. The only plan which ends in positive stability the vast majority of the time.
6% Stability -1, and 0% of going below that.

This will virtually guarantee we crush the nomads (Iron Weapons and a leader with Martial at least 2 steps above our current one), and we can restore legitimacy with our spare art no problem.

edit: We lose an ~0.5 actions since Legitimacy is more expensive than stability, but being able to Restore Order gives us ~+2 actions and we have 0% chance of death. Net +1.5 actions and guaranteed reasonable stability values next turn, we'll just have to Proclaim Glory to fix Legitimacy.
 
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[X] Tools (+8 Econ, +2 Martial, ???)
[X] Leave things be
[X] Offensive (+1 Stability)
[X] No (-1 Stability, +1 Legitimacy)

I'm being conservative this round. I don't want the chance of bad dice rolls scewing us with -4 Stability.
 
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Well the update is maybe here tomorrow so I'm going to get some sunlight.

Remember to vote.;)
 
Empere said:
[X] Tools (+8 Econ, +2 Martial, ???)
[X] Leave things be
[X] Offensive (+1 Stability)
[X] No (-1 Stability, +1 Legitimacy)

I'm being conservative this round. I don't want the rush if bad dice rolls scewing us with -4 Stability.
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Just want to point out that sending warriors out without giving them the weapons to do their job and thus risking a failure is not being conservative.
 
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Empere said:
I'm being conservative this round. I don't want the chance of bad dice rolls scewing us with -4 Stability.
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You're being conservative in regards to Stability but incredibly risky in regards to Martial. This is sending out our army to fight the nomads on their own turf with an Average leader and few new weapons. And they've still got both Heroic leaders boosting them.

Just making sure you're aware. It does seem to be what the majority wants.
 
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