I'm actually surprised by how much rage there is atm.
I mean if all QM's got together and hashed out a list of what they wished players would remember, the number one item would be: NPC's have agency.
This is our fuck up by any measure. I didn't expect it but it kind of shows how badly we understood the rational!Naruto world we've been playing in as well as the teams comedy member in that we completely forgot he is a deeply traumatised PTSD surviving soldier.
If there is one thing I wish the QM's had done differently its not in this update, if they could have seen that we were slowly starting to misinterpret his charectar I would like it if they had confronted us with this either in or out of character so that we realised that we were on the complete wrong track.
The alternative would be that they accept that Hazou being his own character runs both ways. Its unfair to simultaneously ask us to completely understand there universe and at the same time prevent us from fully applying our knowledge of our own. If Hazou needs inspiration before he can apply our ideas then by the same token he should dismiss plans that are going to inevitably end poorly.

Right now though we need to figure out how we want to carry on, either we beg the QM's to let us take it back aka suicide vote, or we continue on.
And I'm not trying to influence votes but if you think back to YOUTHSUIT gate the QMs did say that if it had been the case that they felt a number of people were voting to spoil other peoples fun then they would consider ignoring certain votes.
 
Hi peoples. Hello!

Guess what?

Minami Nikkō was my character.

Bet you didn't know that!




(Of couse, the QMs did most of the work in expanding on her characterization using the seed I gave them.)

And yes, I was (/am) upset at her meaningless, senseless, and entirely avoidable death. Also, I find the whole situation to be baffling, and even downright infuriating. But if I distance myself from those emotions for just a moment, and consider the events here:
  1. We voted in a plan that (unintentionally) resulted in Hazou divulging "clan secrets" that, apparently, people in this universe actually kill over.
  2. We have an insane, paranoid sealmaster on our team, whose first and only solution for any problem is "explode it", and if that doesn't work, you aren't using enough explosives.
  3. We did not realize (1) was a problem, and further, neither us (nor our teammates) made the logical connection between it and (2); therefore, Kagome killed Nikkō to protect clan secrets.
...This actually does make sense. You might not like it (I don't either), but you do have to admit that this is an entirely likely outcome given the circumstances.

Note that this is also an entirely distinct issue from meta-level issues, such as QM interpretations of plans. Sure, you might argue that we didn't quite have enough information to act on to prevent it from happening, or that our teammates should have stopped us and prevented (1) from occurring. It still remains that the QMs decided that, respectively, it didn't matter, and no they didn't (either because they didn't think to, or because they didn't have the opportunity). This is well within their purview as QMs, and is exactly the sort of thing that QMs are for. Otherwise, why bother? Just take this as the cannon ending and be done with it:


"I what?" Noburi asked.

"You married her," said Inoue-sensei, trying her absolute hardest not to laugh and failing.

"But...but...I didn't...I can't...ahhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh!" Noburi said. "How?!"

"You were standing right next to the Betrothal Stone, you looked her in the eyes, and then you asked if she was single," the eldest Kannagi said. The old man stood, spine as straight as a spear, hands folded in his voluminous sleeves, and an Expression of Doom on his face. "What did you think you were doing? Were you simply trifling with my granddaughter's heart?"

"Uhhhh...," said Noburi.

"No, no, it's fine," Inoue said, stifling a giggle. "Really. We're delighted to become part of your family, Kannagi-sama. Thank you so much for accepting us."

"Hmph," the elder snorted. "Very well. I will expect your student to be at my dwelling every morning, an hour before dawn. He will need to hurry if he is to take his place as clan leader in time for the election."

"Say what now?" Noburi asked.

The Expression of Doom because the Expression of Contemputously Doomiest Doom. "Did you think you could marry the Princess of the Kannagi, wielder of our clan's greatest weapon, mistress of our secret style, and not fulfill your duties as clan leader?"

"Uhhhh...," said Noburi.

"I will be certain he acts appropriately, elder," Inoue-sensei said. "You have my word. If I may ask, though...what's this about an election?"

The Eyebrow Arch of Affronted Bemusement joined the Expression, which had now softened very slightly into the Glare of Firey Threat of Doom. "Because of Gasai Kouta's shameful behavior on not one but two occasions, she is being removed from the Council of Elders," Kinnagi said. "An election will be held in one month's time to replace her on the counter. Your student, our new clan head, Will. Be. Elected."

Inoue bowed; when Noburi was too slow to follow she reached up and pulled him into a bow as well. "Of course, elder," she said. "I will bend my every effort to the cause."
o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o
"No!" the instructor said, cracking her switch across Noburi's knuckles hard enough to draw blood. "Touch your napkin with your right hand again and I will cut it off!"

"You'll cut off my napkin?" Noburi said guilelessly, sucking his knuckles as he did. "That seems odd. Wouldn't that stop me from following Rule Ninety-Four-B, 'Correct re-folding of napkin prior to completion of soup course'? It seems like it would."

"SILENCE!" the Matron bellowed. "Your hand! I would cut off your hand!"

"Ohhhhhh," Noburi said, nodding. "I see. That makes more sense." He frowned. "Wouldn't it prevent me from fulfilling Rule Two-Hundred-and-Eighty-Four-J, 'Correct replacement of tea cup after third sip in honor of guest'?"

The matron snapped her switch over his head.
o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o
"Sea Cucumber Summoning Contract, I choose you!" Keiko said, slamming her bloody hand into the contract.

A giant green thing fell out of thin air with a wet 'plap'. It had no eyes, but she was sure it was looking at her.

"Ain't dat just my luck," the sea cucumber groused. "Ya just gettin' in da tub fer a lil well-desoived relaxin' and dere's a call at da contract. A'right, kid, yeah, good enuf. Youse have signed da contract wid da mighty sea cucumbah clan, yadda yadda, youse may call on us at need, blah blah. See yas later." There was another bamf and the sea cucumber was gone.
o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o
"You know, this ain't so bad," Inoue said, lounging on the padded Multiple Earth Wall chaise lounge while three of the village genin fanned her. "Since we introduced this place to modern ninja techniques they've really come to appreciate us properly."

"I know, right?" Kagome said, lounging on his own couch, eyes closed as two village maidens rubbed his feet. "And I'm so glad you recommended I get therapy. I feel ever so much more relaxed."

Inoue laughed. "I'm pretty sure I said 'laid', not 'therapy'," she said.

He shrugged, not bothering to open his eyes. "I find that spending special sexy times with my dainty flowers to be extremely therapeutic," he said. He opened one eye and smiled down at the maidens on footrub duty. "Am I right, little ones?"

The maidens (who were strikingly beautiful and most definitely of legal age for super special sexy times) smiled and giggled. "Yes, Kagome-sama!" they chorused. "We are delighted that you accepted us as joint First Wives of Clan Kagome, the Eighth Great Clan of the Village Hidden in the Mountain! The explosive-seal-powered internal combustion engines that you have introduced will make us more powerful than the Five Great Villages combined!"

Kagome preened. "Nice to be appreciated," he said.

The girls young women of legal age smiled and made bedroom eyes at him. "Oooh, Kagome-sama," they said. "We are so very appreciative."

Kagome's thin face split into a wide grin. He sat up, swinging his feet off the couch and into his geta. (Which are traditional Japanese sandals, in case you didn't know that.) "you Know," Kagome said, sitting up. "I'm feeling in need of a little therapy right now. Come on, ladies, we should get back to fulfilling our duties as Clan Progenitors!"

"Excellent, Kagome-sama!" they said, springing to their feet. "Shall we invite wives Second through Nineteenth?"

The genin tried very hard not to gag as Kagome and the First Wives of his harem went off to generate the next generation of paranoid seal masters.
o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o
"So, do you surrender?" Hazou asked, leaning out the commander's hatch of his hovertank. His grandson had argued with him about going on this mission, saying that he was too old to take the field and his position as Clan Head made him an inappropriate choice for frontline duty and that, since he was the first member of the clan to have awakened all three tomoe (which are comma-shaped things) of his SHaringan (which are totally hax eyeballs that Hazou scored when Mountain overran Sound and convinced Orochimaru to stop being a jerk and use his bio-tinker powers for good) he had a dutty to stay at home and father more kids.

Sarutobi Hiruze raised an eyebrow. "Surrender?" he asked dangerously. His giant mecha's right hand drifted to the Hellbolt Blaster that rested on its hip.

"Partner!" Hazou said quickly. "I meant partner! Do you agree to partner with us?"

Of course," the Hokage said. "Now, lt's go kick some other-village ass. This world-peace thing ain't gonna happen on its own." He bit down on his totally badass cigar and turned his mecha north. It was time to conquer.
o-o-o-o-o-o-o-o​
For starting the Industrial Chakra Revolution, conquering death, handing out Sharingan, Rinnegan, and Byakugan to everyone on earth (which took some doing because the human brain isn't really intended to handle three eyes), and fathering a clan of loyal, happy, well-adjusted children, you have earned 7 XP.

What now?

But I for one support their decisions, and believe this sort of thing is entirely in-line with what should happen in a rational quest. By getting upset at our QMs, and demanding they change the story, or otherwise actively work to avoid outcomes like this, you are demanding that they compromise their ability to write a rational quest, for fear of writing outcomes that upset the readers.

I certainly hope they do not do this.

Why? Because in the real world, you can't unmake bad decisions that lead to terrible outcomes by being upset about it. In the real world, you don't always get a notification, much less the ability to make a saving throw before someone you care about dies. In the real world, you don't always get to prevent life from being casually snuffed out by senseless stupidity.

Sure, you may also complain about a completely separate issue, that there are problems with the format the quest in run in, problems with the overall player/QM interface, that creates an atmosphere where things like this happen unduly often. In that case, I would urge you to remember that this is a separate issue from any of the above, and also to civilly discuss this with our QMs in a manner that might actually lead to satisfactory resolutions.
 
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Wasn't a write-in, I thought just voting for the titles of votes worked.

[X] Poll (Agency): Yes, I want to give up some control of Hazō such that he will generally follow the plan but the GMs will make him do whatever they think is sensible whenever we (the players) vote in something that they (the GMs) think is inappropriate for Hazō-the-character to do. I fully understand that "inappropriate" and "whatever they think is sensible" are subjective and might not be things I approve of or would prefer and I promise not to complain about it in those cases.
 
@eaglejarl

OK. I completely understand the decision you make.

Thank you for writing one of the best story and quest on the internet, but I think I am going to have to find something less stressful to enjoy.
 
Yeergh, moving so fast I can't hardly keep up.

I've taken some time to put my thoughts together on this. Outside of the matter of Hazou as a character having agency in regards to our plans and how much he's allowed to reject or ignore, I think the big mishandling on your part here is failing to ask the question "Is it appropriate to punish our players for this oversight, and if so how much?" Or if you did ask yourselves that, I think you came to a bad answer. I very much appreciate that you've come up with a rich variant on the Naruto setting where people act as actual characters with consistent motivations and things work in a more rational and realistic manner, but at the same time you have to remember that you're running this as a game rather than a story. People play games to have fun, and even games that have high difficulty need to have a degree of fairness or players will end up getting frustrated and quit.
I stopped reading at this point because nothing that comes after is going to be something that I can engage with.

Here's the thing: you're making this personal and it's not. We aren't "punishing you". We're not in competition here, and if you think we are then I don't know that you and I can meaningfully engage. Please go back and examine the bolded sections and see if you can wrap your head around the fact that they simply aren't the case. We aren't punishing you and we're playing as fair as we know how. If you can't agree with that then I get it and that's fine, but I can't help you. If you can, feel free to post something new and I'll be happy to engage -- hopefully we'll be able to work something out that we're both happy with.
 
This same issue of Hazou sometimes being his own character (when it would lead to negative consequences) but sometimes not being his own character (when it would lead to negative consequences) just keeps popping up, and given the responses from the QMs, I don't believe it's going to be fixed anytime soon. I'm a lurker and I've enjoyed reading this quest for a long time, but I don't see myself enjoying further updates.
 
As to explaining the problem: yes, we would explain why things didn't follow the plan. I certainly have no problem with the [EXPLICIT] tag.
Well, that's pretty much exactly what my * was adding. I won't complain, but this is the internet: expecting no one to complain is an unreasonable expectation. If you do leave out an explanation, there's a good chance that whoever gets to asking for it will do so in a somewhat bitchy way. I won't be the one to do it, but... well... this is the internet.

[X] Poll (Agency): Yes, I want to give up some control of Hazō such that he will generally follow the plan but the GMs will make him do whatever they think is sensible whenever we (the players) vote in something that they (the GMs) think is inappropriate for Hazō-the-character to do. I fully understand that "inappropriate" and "whatever they think is sensible" are subjective and might not be things I approve of or would prefer and I promise not to complain about it in those cases.
 
This same issue of Hazou sometimes being his own character (when it would lead to negative consequences) but sometimes not being his own character (when it would lead to negative consequences) just keeps popping up

Yeah, that does seem to be the problem. That's also where the "evil genie" thing comes from. I get that this story runs on conflict, but it starts to feel like a conflict ball. Yes, the player base did fuck up in their approach to Minami, due to information that we either forgot or, more likely, due to us interpreting a bunch of small things differently.

Even if it might be a possible IC option that doesn't mean it won't ruin the quest further for people who genuinely want to continue playing.

Well there's something to be said for a satisfying ending, and like they say they have been putting in a lot of time and the like. Maybe this is the right place to end it.
Adhoc vote count started by traverseda on May 18, 2017 at 4:47 PM, finished with 287 posts and 35 votes.

  • [X] Poll (Agency): Yes, I want to give up some control of Hazō such that he will generally follow the plan but the GMs will make him do whatever they think is sensible whenever we (the players) vote in something that they (the GMs) think is inappropriate for Hazō-the-character to do. I fully understand that "inappropriate" and "whatever they think is sensible" are subjective and might not be things I approve of or would prefer and I promise not to complain about it in those cases.
    [X] Action Plan: Commit Suicide
    [x] lore update
    [X] Action plan: Stutter, stammer and otherwise babble incoherently for a few moments. Error, rebooting.
    -[X] We should continue the mission now and delay deciding on Kagome's future until such a time as delay is no longer possible. This is a big decision that does not need to be made at night hundreds of feet in the sky and covered in blood.
    -[X] Stare into space a lot and mindlessly follow orders for the next few days.
    [X] Plan: A fate worse than death.
    [X] Action Plan: The Watchtower
    [X] Action Plan: Leave Hazou
    [X] Action Plan: A Minor Retcon
    [X] Kagome Must Die
    [X] Poll (Agency): No, I do not want to give up any control of Hazō and I am willing to accept the fact that he will sometimes do things that I feel someone who grew up in this world wouldn't do because we (the players) voted for him to do so.
    [X] Action Plan: Commit Suicide
    -[X] Silently stand up, give Akane the necklace.
    -[X] Pick a direction, run until your skywalkers run out or chakra exhaustion takes hold.
 
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[X] Poll (Agency): Yes, I want to give up some control of Hazō such that he will generally follow the plan but the GMs will make him do whatever they think is sensible whenever we (the players) vote in something that they (the GMs) think is inappropriate for Hazō-the-character to do. I fully understand that "inappropriate" and "whatever they think is sensible" are subjective and might not be things I approve of or would prefer and I promise not to complain about it in those cases.

The Youthsuit incident was 100% the players' fault. Getting kicked out of Leaf was unexpected, but entirely explicable in hindsight. This one? I just can't see how we could reasonably have been expected to predict and pre-empt this.
 
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Just want to make my appreciation to the QMs @eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail known. Regardless of circumstances, it's great seeing Akane again.
Except that you won't be seeing much of Akane again.
Because now she hates us.
...
Yeah.

A page or two ago, someone quoted Akane basically saying that it was our fault if our loyal Konoha-nin commander was murdered in our sleep because we were sucking up to her too hard and spilled some intel. And upon rereading the update, it does seem like she's pretty furious and holds us personally responsible. In her eyes, this is the "be kicked out of Leaf" debacle all over again, and she's much less likely to forgive us a second time.

...

So yeah. Akane shippers should be aware that their ship has just been shot in the face repeatedly.
 
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[] Poll (Agency): Yes, I want to give up some control of Hazō such that he will generally follow the plan but the GMs will make him do whatever they think is sensible whenever we (the players) vote in something that they (the GMs) think is inappropriate for Hazō-the-character to do. I fully understand that "inappropriate" and "whatever they think is sensible" are subjective and might not be things I approve of or would prefer and I promise not to complain about it in those cases.

I think it is unrealistic to try and make people "promise" to never complain.

I would vote for this, but it might be ruled as incompatible with the plan I'm actually voting for.
 
Well there's something to be said for a satisfying ending.
There are very few times the protagonist dying makes for a satisfying ending, the vast vast majority of these occasions are when they die in a heroic sacrifice to defeat a great evil like In The Thunders Echo or redeem themselves and these ones are mostly reserved for villains rather than protagonists.
And ITTE still had a massive amount of rage before people calmed down and said 'Okay, as ways to go, thats pretty Rokugany'.

I don't see suicide because the teenage protagonist doesn't see anyway to make up for the latest in his chain of screw ups to be anything but depressing.
 
EDIT: and the quest players will probably be even more aware of opsec questions now. I expect more caution and paranoia.
Eh, we've had these problems in the past in large and small ways. Hasn't changed our interaction too much. I do find it interesting how the number of posters quadruples when this sort of thing happens though (and many of them cease posting just as quickly). Honestly, I don't think this is more of an issue than either Youthsuits or "Pretty damn far." Will it make Akane hate us forever and never want to be with us? Possibly. Will it take Hazou months to years to regain trust with the other genin? Probably. Will Kagome be forever shunned and/or killed? Possibly.

Well there's something to be said for a satisfying ending.
Would you be satisfied by an omake describing this?
 
I'm actually surprised by how much rage there is atm.
I mean if all QM's got together and hashed out a list of what they wished players would remember, the number one item would be: NPC's have agency.
This is our fuck up by any measure. I didn't expect it but it kind of shows how badly we understood the rational!Naruto world we've been playing in as well as the teams comedy member in that we completely forgot he is a deeply traumatised PTSD surviving soldier.
If there is one thing I wish the QM's had done differently its not in this update, if they could have seen that we were slowly starting to misinterpret his charectar I would like it if they had confronted us with this either in or out of character so that we realised that we were on the complete wrong track.
The alternative would be that they accept that Hazou being his own character runs both ways. Its unfair to simultaneously ask us to completely understand there universe and at the same time prevent us from fully applying our knowledge of our own. If Hazou needs inspiration before he can apply our ideas then by the same token he should dismiss plans that are going to inevitably end poorly.

Right now though we need to figure out how we want to carry on, either we beg the QM's to let us take it back aka suicide vote, or we continue on.
And I'm not trying to influence votes but if you think back to YOUTHSUIT gate the QMs did say that if it had been the case that they felt a number of people were voting to spoil other peoples fun then they would consider ignoring certain votes.
Thank you, @Dark as Silver. I am sincerely appreciative.


Hopefully I can say this without being snotty -- it's not intended as such: I have to admit that I'm amused at your post. You're the one who's always voting "Blow it all up! Aggggh!" Seeing you be the voice of reason makes me chuckle a bit. :>


Hi peoples. Hello!

Guess what?

Minami Nikkō was my character.

Bet you didn't know that!


(Of couse, the QMs did most of the work in expanding on her characterization using the seed I gave them.)

And yes, I was (/am) upset at her meaningless, senseless, and entirely avoidable death. Also, I find the whole situation to be baffling, and even downright infuriating. But if I distance myself from those emotions for just a moment, and consider the events here:
  1. We voted in a plan that (unintentionally) resulted in Hazou divulging "clan secrets" that, apparently, people in this universe actually kill over.
  2. We have an insane, paranoid sealmaster on our team, whose first and only solution for any problem is "explode it", and if that doesn't work, you aren't using enough explosives.
  3. We did not realize (1) was a problem, and further, neither us (nor our teammates) made the logical connection between it and (2); therefore, Kagome killed Nikkō to protect clan secrets.
...This actually does make sense. You might not like it (I don't either), but you do have to admit that this is an entirely likely outcome given the circumstances.

Note that this is also an entirely distinct issue from meta-level issues, such as QM interpretations of plans. Sure, you might argue that we didn't quite have enough information to act on to prevent it from happening, or that our teammates should have stopped us and prevented (1) from occurring. It still remains that the QMs decided that, respectively, it didn't matter, and no they didn't (either because they didn't think to, or because they didn't have the opportunity). This is well within their purview as QMs, and is exactly the sort of thing that QMs are for. Otherwise, why bother? Just take this as the cannon ending and be done with it:



But I for one support their decisions, and believe this sort of thing is entirely in-line with what should happen in a rational quest. By getting upset at our QMs, and demanding they change the story, or otherwise actively work to avoid outcomes like this, you are demanding that they compromise their ability to write a rational quest, for fear of writing outcomes that upset the readers.

I certainly hope they do not do this.

Why? Because in the real world, you can't unmake bad decisions that lead to terrible outcomes by being upset about it. In the real world, you don't always get a notification, much less the ability to make a saving throw before someone you care about dies. In the real world, you don't always get to prevent life from being casually snuffed out by senseless stupidity.

Sure, you may also complain about a completely separate issue, that there are problems with the format the quest in run in, problems with the overall player/QM interface, that creates an atmosphere where things like this happen unduly often. In that case, I would urge you to remember that this is a separate issue from any of the above, and also to civilly discuss this with our QMs in a manner that might actually lead to satisfactory resolutions.
Thank you, Vecht. I really appreciate this.

I am just now realizing that we really should have told you what was coming ahead of time, since Minami was yours. I apologize for not thinking of it sooner.


@eaglejarl

OK. I completely understand the decision you make.

Thank you for writing one of the best story and quest on the internet, but I think I am going to have to find something less stressful to enjoy.
We'll be sorry to lose you. I hope you find something you prefer.

Just want to make my appreciation to the QMs @eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail known. Regardless of circumstances, it's great seeing Akane again.
Thank you.

I think it is unrealistic to try and make people "promise" to never complain.

Well, that's pretty much exactly what my * was adding. I won't complain, but this is the internet: expecting no one to complain is an unreasonable expectation. If you do leave out an explanation, there's a good chance that whoever gets to asking for it will do so in a somewhat bitchy way. I won't be the one to do it, but... well... this is the internet.
Oh, I fully expect someone to whinge. I'm just being very clear up front that their whinging will be met with utter lack of sympathy.
 
I would be very surprised if suicide was considered wildly inappropriate for Hazos character right now.
 
I should mention that the current voting trends suggest that the QMs are likely to apply the changes to the quest style that the players want and that this will only apply to the next character because Hazō is going to kill himself.
 
Due to the thread warning and SV moderator oversight I am unable to speak my mind properly about people casting suicide votes, without getting myself banned. It shall thus suffice to say that I am displeased with your choice(@ people who are casting suicide votes), and I hope you personally have to deal with 3^^^3 dust specks.

@eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail I am still enjoying the quest and do very much appreciate the unpaid work you put toward this. That said, I need some time to parse this update.

[X] Lore Update
[X] Don't suicide

Edit: clarified who I'm displeased at. This is not a time for unclear communication. Fuck Soap Operas.
 
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I would vote for this, but it might be ruled as incompatible with the plan I'm actually voting for.

It's a poll, and thus mechanically doesn't conflict with any action plans. And no matter what action plan we vote in, even the suicide one, whether our character can override the hivemind (to our benefit or detriment) is going to be relevant.
 
Thank you, @Dark as Silver. I am sincerely appreciative.


Hopefully I can say this without being snotty -- it's not intended as such: I have to admit that I'm amused at your post. You're the one who's always voting "Blow it all up! Aggggh!" Seeing you be the voice of reason makes me chuckle a bit. :>
Credit where credit is due. After all when I leave the world a smouldering crater I want it to be known that I'm the one who switched Trumps red buttons not that he just made that mistake by himself.

Seriously though, I would like to hear your responses to my two pieces of actual feedback.
 
I am in definitive agreeance with all that have thus far expressed appreciation for your work on this quest. I will continue following it regardless of what happens, though I might be slightly less involved in plan-making. I am quite fond of the regulars here, and certainly of you guys, @eaglejarl @Velorien @OliWhail. Thank you very much for these many months of entertainment.
 
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