Paths of Civilization

Hyacinthium · May 8, 2017

[X] [Kick] The Garden
[X] [Main] Great Dam
[X] [Secondary] Great Dam x2
[X] [Kick] Great Dam
[X] [Kick] Great Dam x2

I think this will be the best choice ever.

tryrar · May 8, 2017

Lilithium said:
[X] [Kick] The Garden
[X] [Main] Great Dam
[X] [Secondary] Great Dam x2
[X] [Kick] Great Dam
[X] [Kick] Great Dam x2

I think this will be the best choice ever.

Or lead to split focus and have something go terribly wrong with one or both.

Karugus · May 8, 2017

Sivantic said:
We would need to have good relations first too even get to see the King.

I don't think you understand the enormity of a Salt Gift. This is the Chalcolithic equivalent of Mansa Musa accidentally the Egyptian economy on his trip to Mecca. There's a reason it gains prestige and costs as much diplo as a cheap Megaproject costs econ. There's no way this doesn't get an audience with the king unless the King is deliberately trying to snub us. Which would be a bad idea- 'gets over civil war, consolidating and reforming along the lines of his mysterious northern neighbor, said neighbor comes along with a massive gift for him' accepting said gift is proof of his power, legitimacy, and policies in a lot of ways. Rejecting said gift does nothing but potentially make an enemy and weakens his position.

Sivantic said:
Them, maybe not. Them against the Xohyssiri? Very likely

The best time to Gift Salt is after we have trade missions to them. That way we can gift salt to them and not just to the Xohyssiri.

Uh, why would we care all that much about them going to war with the Xohyssiri? Our trade with the Xoh was never going to be all that reliable and the purpose of our trade expedition to them was never for a reliable trade partner.

As for giving the Gift Salt after the trade mission- why? The fact the Gift Salt isn't a continuous obligation is a good thing here. Once we gift the salt and get whatever they decide to reciprocate- it's over. We've probably garnered good will in the act, but it isn't a long term obligation.

BungieONI · May 8, 2017

tryrar said:
I agree planning out 6 turns is silly. I'd rather go for 2 turn plans at the most, basically doing what we're doing this turn then planning for the next.

Making massive posts that need spoiler that plan 6 turns ahead gets you ignored.

Well true.I did go back and change them all to spoiler-ed.

But I genuinely think that thinking we can't plan things out is kinda shaky. However it is a valid thought path that does get things done.
I just believe that we can plan out 6 project turns. We did 4 during the Crisis. While a bad example it shows that we can in some scenarios.

I do not feel that I can convince you however so I am not going try, and I'm just gonna avoid this brewing argument.

ABalloonyChaos · May 8, 2017

[X] [Main] New Settlement - Southern Shores
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Thunder Horses
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Highland Kingdom
[X] [Kick] The Garden

I like the idea of reestablishing trade between our neighbors now rather than later. They might be bit miffed at us for trading with DP first rather than them. Copper can wait a turn for us to trade for us trade more with the Metal Workers.

notgreat · May 8, 2017

BungieONI said:
We knew we would be trading with them since Healing Magic.

...which was 1 turn ago, yes.
Defining goals that we want accomplished within ~6 turns is fine, but actually mathing things out that far isn't worthwhile. We can do rough efficiency calculations since those will last for a while (until we get more efficient options). There are too many random factors in this game for those plans to have any worth. If mid-turns weren't a thing it might be useful, but they are, so it isn't. Disasters, unexpected huge benefits like the Baby Boom, all sorts of things can invalidate plans. The further out you go, the less likely that everything goes as expected.
I'd recommend instead switching to a priority list. Define what you want done. Here's mine:

Critical Priority

1) Safe stat buffers
The bolded values are the ones that I consider safe, with our current values for comparison. (need more art now since smelting costs us art)
General
Diplomacy 9/5 GOOD
Economy 5/6 OK* (going up significantly this turn)
Martial 8/6 GOOD

Stability
Stability 3/2 MAX
Legitimacy 3/3 MAX

Organizational (for our current civ type)
Centralization 5/3 GOOD
Hierarchy 6/5 GOOD

Cultural
Art 5/5 OK
Mysticism 8/5 GOOD
Prestige 6/??? (we don't know enough about this stat. More is better I guess?)
complete!

High Priority

1) Expansion
We can always want to do more things. Get 2 more provinces for another action per turn while also improving our Mysticism and Economy. Then do either Trails or Enforce Law to restore the Centralization lost. (Enforce Law is way better stat-wise, but doesn't have "other effects".)
Expected cost: 3/5 actions left after this turn. Potentially repeatable.

2) Metal
We need to both research a mining improvement and implement it by creating a mine. Probable "Study Health" synergy. (possibly need separate smelting process action?)
completing this turn!

3) Safer Stats
Add 1 more to all values listed above. (except legitimacy due to cap)
1 action left, completing with megaproject most likely

Medium Priority

1) Megaprojects
These things give large benefits, and we're uniquely suited for doing lots of them. My ordering is Saltern -> Garden -> Place to the Stars -> Dam.
Expected cost: Varies wildly, 6-25 actions per project

2) Carrion Eaters
These guys are useful, and we want to make sure we have enough. Probable synergy with "Study Health"
Expected cost: 2 actions, 2 actions of stats = 4 actions (get +1.5 actions of stats)

3) Surveys (especially for more metal)
More mines are always useful, find better settlement locations with unique bonuses.
Expected cost: 1-3 actions, repeatable.

4) Communications
Improve this via trails, boats, etc. Probably integrate the march while we're at it.
Expected cost: Unknown. ~4 actions?

Low Priority

1) Black Soil
An easy action to take, but we don't think it'll be that useful either since it sounds like we have enough for most uses right now.
Expected cost: 1-2 actions

2) Badlands Settlement and other lowland measures
We're still on ok terms with the HK and TH, so the main priority is to make sure that if the DP start winning again we're still in good position. This shoots upward in priority if any one side starts clearly winning.
Expected cost: 3-5 actions

3) Expand Forest everywhere
To fit our thematics and it's a useful choice anyway. Probable synergy with "Study Forest"
Expected cost: 1-2 actions, repeatable

4) Science!
All the "Study X" actions. (Temporary synergies raise the priority of that specific action)
Expected cost: 1-2 actions, repeatable

We're currently done with my Critical priority, and this plan completes a High and gets the other two Highs halfway complete.

BungieONI said:
We did 4 during the Crisis.

We did 3 during the crisis. The last turn was massively different from expected due to the introduction of Policies.
(Also, thanks for spoilering them!)

@Massgamer
The change happened around when the DP shifted to a tribute-esque Greater Good system instead of their "raid and kill" system. This was also when they first got glazed pottery.

tryrar · May 8, 2017

BungieONI said:
Well true.I did go back and change them all to spoiler-ed.

But I genuinely think that thinking we can't plan things out is kinda shaky. However it is a valid thought path that does get things done.
I just believe that we can plan out 6 project turns. We did 4 during the Crisis. While a bad example it shows that we can in some scenarios.

I do not feel that I can convince you however so I am not going try, and I'm just gonna avoid this brewing argument.

Well, I just wish you wouldn't bother since it's annoying to scroll past something(even spoilered) I don't care to read and has no impact on what we're planning to do. Still, you do you.

DkArthas · May 8, 2017

[X] [Main] New Settlement - Southern Shores
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine X2
[X] [Kick] The Garden

Kiba · May 8, 2017

Been thinking about ancient inventors and scientists. Classical antiquity had Hero of Alexanderia, but they pretty much failed to build on his work. One reason of which is that their economy is built on slaves.

So we built up pressure for labor saving devices somewhat with half-exiles instead of slaves. Then we work to add regular people who get paid shitload of ration for doing half-exile work....And then work to reduce the amount half-exiles with a better Justice value.

This should force us to find way to save labor using water and wind mills.

veekie · May 8, 2017

Karugus said:
I highly doubt it. We can roll up with literal tons of salt- and basically lower our sunglasses and ask the HK where an upstanding gentleman can go to get some drugs around here.

Opium is awesome, it's not so awesome that the HK wouldn't give us some poppies for a fuckton of salt. Even if it's not a trade as much, it would make the HK king look weak if he didn't offer any reciprocation.

THe thing here is:
-The Opium knowledge is from the Dead Priest Healers. Healers who'd be dying by the next turn. After that we won't be able to specifically trade for Opium no matter what we offer, because we won't be able to identify it anymore, as the last person who's seen it before is dead.

-The HK's Law will be set in stone if we approach them later. The longer we wait, the less we'd be able to influence it as they use their own precedent rather than take from ours. Having similar legal codes will greatly improve trade and diplomacy, due to using more similar standards of measures and classifications.
--We have a chance here to stealth insert a Casus Belli concept into their culture, so they'd be less able to prosecute offensive wars.

-Salt Gift says we send it to outsiders. We won't be sending them much salt if we don't have Trade links at all.

-Tech transfer. LoO gives us passive tech transfers over time with trade partners, and once the HK finish their Law, they'd be MUCH harder to destabilize than before.

-Politics. We've established trade with the Dead Priests. We've previously established that we aren't taking any sides in their clusterfuck, so if we don't balance the scales...it'd look just like taking sides. This will be annoying down the line.

-The Lowlands are volatile. Even if the HK doesn't start a war due to having a megaproject active, the Thunder Speakers, Thunder Horse, and Dead Priests alike are able to start one. We've never really had more than 2 turns of peace in a row down there.

Finally:
-Copper isn't going anywhere. I get that people are starting to get impatient, but no matter what it's going to be done in the next two turns anyways.

Necratoid said:
Other than that the only real choice here is if its worth the resource sink to kick the Garden. If the dice say its a one turn thing your wasting your stuff.

Garden will overflow into Aqueducts. Says so in the update itself. It's only a Megaproject as Proof of Concept.

So excess resources doesn't get wasted. It'd just start the project on our next largest settlement.

tryrar said:
Not much difference really, in ancient times there were such things a brass weapons IIRC

Not many though. Just not that good compared to good flint.

Makes decent maces to be fair.

Tylonius · May 8, 2017

[X] [Main] New Settlement - Southern Shores
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine X2
[X] [Kick] The Garden

BungieONI · May 9, 2017

notgreat said:
There are too many random factors in this game for those plans to have any worth.

I see this get put out there so much and I think to myself "How can I use them?"

I kinda bluntly have a brain glitch trying to make a priority list. This is basically my weird ass version.

Let's look at mid turn disasters:

The plan's biggest advantage is that it can finish without Baby Boom. It is totally self-contained in it's econ costs.

A refugee wave from the lowlands. Plan has mid turn flexibility inside it to absorb the Stab hits and really only benefits from this. Plus CA can nullify this Stab stuff.

A disease. Tricky but that will cause more refugees which we could take in and open more time to send a TM to the TH and HK.

A fucking comet. We have the stability to burn and a fuckload of Mysticism. This would suck, but we can take it, especially early in the plan.

A disease and a comet. This would cause some severe upset, and we would have to only take the smaller refugee waves. Again CA applies.

A Nomad Waaagh! This would require us to sac something from steps 5 or 7 or maybe jigger other things around so we can send a Main War Mission to support the March.

We have a lot of pots with very volatile things in this kitchen but we finally got the Sou chef and assistants so we can sorta handle it for now.

tryrar said:
Well, I just wish you wouldn't bother since it's annoying to scroll past something(even spoilered) I don't care to read and has no impact on what we're planning to do. Still, you do you.

Hey thanks for being honest. Kinda hurts but ehh...

If no one cares I can just go back to lurking. *shrug*

It really sucks when I went to this relatively easy effort in an attempt to show/provide a way for everyone's pet projects to get done.

Necratoid · May 9, 2017

keenscythe said:
Glad to hear they only have brass instead of us being behind an entire tech level.

Even if they did it would only be a materials tier not a flat tech tier. The technology grid is like 40 different categories. Also an better range arrow to the face makes your shiny sword axe less of an problem, for instance. Also, having your camp flood with ninjas at night.

Sivantic said:
That however completely cuts us off from the Lowlands again, and we just saw how far we can fall behind if we isolate ourselves too much.

Look at what the isolation on the Americas did to the local tech curve... they got stuck at the stone age in a lot of places... and that stone age tech was from the Europeans they took it from during the ice age.

notgreat said:
Prestige 6/??? (we don't know enough about this stat. More is better I guess?)

Prestige means your known for your shinies. Raiders like shinies. So I'm guessing its a stat you don't want above your military or your getting a face gull of grabby, stabby jerks.

tryrar · May 9, 2017

BungieONI said:
I see this get put out there so much and I think to myself "How can I use them?"

I kinda bluntly have a brain glitch trying to make a priority list. This is basically my weird ass version.

Let's look at mid turn disasters:

The plan's biggest advantage is that it can finish without Baby Boom. It is totally self-contained in it's econ costs.

A refugee wave from the lowlands. Plan has mid turn flexibility inside it to absorb the Stab hits and really only benefits from this. Plus CA can nullify this Stab stuff.

A disease. Tricky but that will cause more refugees which we could take in and open more time to send a TM to the TH and HK.

A fucking comet. We have the stability to burn and a fuckload of Mysticism. This would suck, but we can take it, especially early in the plan.

A disease and a comet. This would cause some severe upset, and we would have to only take the smaller refugee waves. Again CA applies.

A Nomad Waaagh! This would require us to sac something from steps 5 or 7 or maybe jigger other things around so we can send a Main War Mission to support the March.

We have a lot of pots with very volatile things in this kitchen but we finally got the Sou chef and assistants so we can sorta handle it for now.

Hey thanks for being honest. Kinda hurts but ehh...

If no one cares I can just go back to lurking. *shrug*

It really sucks when I went to this relatively easy effort in an attempt to show/provide a way for everyone's pet projects to get done.

Look, I just simply disagree specific plans that look that far ahead are worth anything in this game. If you really want to plan things out, why don't you use that priority system @notgreat uses?

Marlin · May 9, 2017

Academia Nut said:
A pity that's not an option.

This quote implies that yes we need to say Western Thunder Horse/Thunder Speaker and not Thunder Horse in the trade mission vote.

@Sivantic, @Glassware, @veekie, and @ABallooneyChaos if you could adjust your votes. That would be great.

Academia Nut said:
[] Trade Mission
-Target Options: Highland Kingdom, Western Thunder Horse/Thunder Speakers, Metal Miners, Lowland Minors, Southern Hill People, Dead Priests/Xohyssiri, Into the Wild

Edit: Names of different groups have changed.

CatOnTheWeb · May 9, 2017

[X][Main] New Settlement - Southern Shores
[X][Secondary] Trade Mission - Highland Kingdom
[X][Secondary] Trade Mission - Thunder Horses
[X][Kick] The Garden

guyfromtheplace1 · May 9, 2017

[X] [Main] New Settlement - Southern Shores
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine X2
[X] [Kick] The Garden

tryrar · May 9, 2017

@Academia Nut for the purposes of finding new mine/saltern sites would the provinces use Survey Lands while we had the Expansion policy active, or would we need the Progress policy for them to do active surveys?

Marlin · May 9, 2017

Ugh, another one. Okay, here is the list of our current trade options

Academia Nut said:
[] Trade Mission
-Target Options: Highland Kingdom, Western Thunder Horse/Thunder Speakers, Metal Miners, Lowland Minors, Southern Hill People, Dead Priests/Xohyssiri, Into the Wild

Edit: Names have changed.

notgreat · May 9, 2017

BungieONI said:
If no one cares I can just go back to lurking. *shrug*

It really sucks when I went to this relatively easy effort in an attempt to show/provide a way for everyone's pet projects to get done.

I appreciate the effort, I just honestly don't think it's worthwhile. We'll pick up new pet projects that may be higher priority before the plan's even half done. It's useful to think about these things, but actually going through all of that is kinda a wasted effort IMO. There's just too many variables. New types of disasters could hit at any time, new people could show up, new actions could become available, rules could change, anything. Things like your "Brace for Murphy" turn are trying to predict fundamentally unpredictable events. I'd instead define things like "Perform X within Y turns". Add in the estimated action costs and then you have a set of rules which can be used to construct plans within.

Marlin said:
This quote implies that yes we need to say Western Thunder Horse/Thunder Speaker and not Thunder Horse in the trade mission vote.

It's implied that a trade with the TH means that we're going to the WTH/TS since we're not allowed to go to the ETH. Also, it was originally TH before AN modified the turn's action list.

Academia Nut · May 9, 2017

notgreat said:
Are the Bleeding Cliffs supposed to be a settlement location? We found them but they're not on the list.

It's not a great settlement location currently, so until anyone determines its significance, it is not a major settlement.

Andres110 said:
what did the Dead Priests think of our civilisation?

Weird workaholics with spirits who are definitely too suspiciously nice. Crow is the only one they get, in that he doesn't give things for free.

tryrar said:
I'm assuming the Mysticism Generation possibility from Main Salt Gift is using it to bribe knowledge from whatever the target of the give we give is, correct?

It's the other side responding with secret knowledge. Salt Gift is basically showing up at a neighbour's house and throwing several hundred kilos of gold onto their lawn and then going "Show me what you got!"

tryrar said:
for the purposes of finding new mine/saltern sites would the provinces use Survey Lands while we had the Expansion policy active, or would we need the Progress policy for them to do active surveys?

Either Expansion or Progress would work.

kalugin · May 9, 2017

[X] [Main] New Settlement - Southern Shores
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine X2
[X] [Kick] The Garden

BungieONI · May 9, 2017

tryrar said:
Look, I just simply disagree specific plans that look that far ahead are worth anything in this game. If you really want to plan things out, why don't you use that priority system @notgreat uses?

*sigh* Because I don't like to?

It is honestly less enjoyable than my method. That's just kinda me.

If it annoys the thread I think I'll just keep the damn things in storage and pull out the individual math/narrative bits to support my point.

I need to go calm down now.

Don't really agree with this:

notgreat said:
Things like your "Brace for Murphy" turn are trying to predict fundamentally unpredictable events.

If I was trying to predict things I'd make math and postulate actions. Now really before I start whining and making myself over-dramatic I'm just gonna leave. I'll talk to you folks later.

Marlin · May 9, 2017

notgreat said:
It's implied that a trade with the TH means that we're going to the WTH/TS since we're not allowed to go to the ETH. Also, it was originally TH before AN modified the turn's action list.

Really? @Academia Nut some clarification would be nice. Do we need to say Eastern Thunder Horse, or would Thunder horse be fine on the Trade Mission option?

Academia Nut · May 9, 2017

Marlin said:
Really? @Academia Nut some clarification would be nice. Do we need to say Eastern Thunder Horse, or would Thunder horse be fine on the Trade Mission option?

There is no possible trade route to the Eastern Thunder Horse, unless you try to go Into the Wild and get lucky.

Paths of Civilization

Writing about sad cannibals as we speak.

Seven gremlins in a trench coat

Drifts wherever the wind may take me.

CAPITAL IS TO BLAME

Seven gremlins in a trench coat

Seven gremlins in a trench coat