Though if we are talking about the future... I'd advice doing some military actions soon. You haven't had a major combat upgrade in a while and as your actually in diplomatic contact for once... and noting their defensive tech and such... Its probably for the best to deal with that.

Kind of want to campaign to send a diplo mission to the Thunder Speakers and the HK at the same time to check up o them instead of the mine this turn.

If HK does have issue with the expansion its a perfect time to salt bomb them into submission at that point.

If they don't take issue you can just spend a(n) action(s) on keeping up with the Joneses.
 
[X] [Kick] The Garden
[X] [Main] New Settlement - Southern Shores
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Western Thunder Horse/Thunder Speakers
[X] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Highland Kingdom
 
It's not a great settlement location currently, so until anyone determines its significance, it is not a major settlement.



Weird workaholics with spirits who are definitely too suspiciously nice. Crow is the only one they get, in that he doesn't give things for free.



It's the other side responding with secret knowledge. Salt Gift is basically showing up at a neighbour's house and throwing several hundred kilos of gold onto their lawn and then going "Show me what you got!"



Either Expansion or Progress would work.
Cool. I assume though it would be a lower priority with the Expansion policy to say, new settlements/provinces or expand economy?

And what is roughly the split for study actions/survey land/Art Patronage if we take Progress?
 
Cool. I assume though it would be a lower priority with the Expansion policy to say, new settlements/provinces or expand economy?

And what is roughly the split for study actions/survey land/Art Patronage if we take Progress?

Yes, there will be a mix of actions but Expansion would prioritize Econ gain where possible.

The split for Progress would be dependent upon how much Econ is available to spend.
 
Kind of want to campaign to send a diplo mission to the Thunder Speakers and the HK at the same time to check up o them instead of the mine this turn.
Feel free to campaign, but you'll have to convince people that a trade mission is more valuable than finally getting that copper we've wanted for a long, long time (since well before the tax crisis). Getting local copper also opens up space on our ships to get more specialized metals from the MW.

Trade missions are useful, but nowhere near as valuable as finally moving up the tech tree and getting our own source of metal. Metal also guarantees that we'll have plenty of economy next turn- the settlement+trade+kick plan leaves us at 3 econ if the Baby Boom ends and we don't finish The Garden as opposed to 6 if we get metal.
 
Ok, so what I'm getting then is if we want to get consistent Survey Lands we'll need to vote for it ourselves(likely as a Main since that gives the best return).

The reason I'm bringing this up is with the current leading vote, and the hint of arsenic bronze or natural brass, we really need to step up our metals game, and that means comprehensive surveys of our lands/expanding to new lands to survey.
 
Garden will overflow into Aqueducts. Says so in the update itself. It's only a Megaproject as Proof of Concept.

So excess resources doesn't get wasted. It'd just start the project on our next largest settlement.
Its also an economy sink. Tying up your economy in plumbing and discovering you need to upgrade your military badly would suck.

Having an awesome economy is grand... but having to scrap it because a new weapon you've never heard of is around would cause issues.

This is why its a judgement call to kick the Garden and not a bad idea. you've been doing a lot of economy recently and health care is upgraded. OTOH your chariots are amusingly old school.
 
Its also an economy sink. Tying up your economy in plumbing and discovering you need to upgrade your military badly would suck.

Having an awesome economy is grand... but having to scrap it because a new weapon you've never heard of is around would cause issues.

This is why its a judgement call to kick the Garden and not a bad idea. you've been doing a lot of economy recently and health care is upgraded. OTOH your chariots are amusingly old school.

Plumbing is an economy booster, and it will allow to grow our cities very large, which also help us stay compact as a civilization.

Also hopefully make it easier on our half-exiles.
 
Its also an economy sink. Tying up your economy in plumbing and discovering you need to upgrade your military badly would suck.

Having an awesome economy is grand... but having to scrap it because a new weapon you've never heard of is around would cause issues.

This is why its a judgement call to kick the Garden and not a bad idea. you've been doing a lot of economy recently and health care is upgraded. OTOH your chariots are amusingly old school.
Plus more access to copper means we can afford to use more copper in construction of everything, including chariots.
 
[X] [Main] New Settlement - Southern Shores
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine X2
[X] [Kick] The Garden
 
-The Opium knowledge is from the Dead Priest Healers. Healers who'd be dying by the next turn. After that we won't be able to specifically trade for Opium no matter what we offer, because we won't be able to identify it anymore, as the last person who's seen it before is dead.
The HK knows about Poppies, that's why we would have to trade with them to get them. It's not like the DP didn't tell us about them, it's just that we haven't actually seen them. Even a written description- easily possible with a phonetic language would utterly shoot down your reservation. They can and probably will give us some in exchange for more salt than they've ever seen before. All it takes is- we have all this salt, we've been hearing about this interesting flower *insert description/use*- could we have some?

-Salt Gift says we send it to outsiders. We won't be sending them much salt if we don't have Trade links at all.
Uh. That seems like baseless conjecture, especially since even if we haven't been trading with the HK- they've definitely been sending traders to us even with our declaration for neutrality. It's how they learned about the Law after all.

As for casus belli and culturally infiltrating them- that's not happening. It took evolving harmony with our laws to specifically create that situation and the HK as a culture are far more warlike than even the Stallions.

And frankly- we don't need peace in the Lowlands to Gift Salt. Hell, by this time it doesn't even matter all that much if the Thunder Speakers get mad at us because a) the Stallions can back us against them, b) the TS are still fighting the TH, c) we no longer have any meaningful trade with them but we do have some with the HK considering they offered us tribute earlier. We're no longer vulnerable enough that neutrality is the absolute best course of action necessarily, and the situation in the Lowlands is complicated enough no one there can really move against us without exposing themselves to the other factions.

We have a very, very nice diplomatic setup for ourselves as things stand. The Xoh can at least respect us and have little to nothing to gain from fighting us. The TS are preoccupied and some old familial ties+our history means they are at least amicable to us. The HK is probably the most distance, but even then we're the trade partner they need more than the other way around- and they've been scared off by our law in still recent memory. Everyone in this game has at least some modicum of respect for us, and a lot of reason to fight one of their other neighbors over picking a fight with us. The fact that the HK will be cut off from the coast and the People will be able to sell them copper at an affordable rate/compete with the southern hill people means our value as a trade partner only increases.

In terms of diplomatic positioning, we're the best off in the region- no one can afford to make themselves our enemy while simultaneously not feeling all that threatened by us compared to their other neighbors.

Edit: and AN confirmed it- Salt Gift would be a potentially viable way of getting poppies, because when your neighbor gifts you several hundred kilos of gold, you don't skimp on reciprocating unless you want to look like shit. To say nothing of how powerful such a gesture makes the People look.
 
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The thing with copper is getting it next turn is no appreciable loss, especially when we switch Policy to support it then.

The trade mission opportunity window however, will close based on random events, and we have rapidly depreciating bonuses(opium knowledge, Law influence) applicable to the HK trade mission that will be much less likely next turn, and not usable at all more than a turn after that.

If you want to get Arsenic Bronze/Brass, then wouldn't expanding your trade contacts to be nearer the Eastern metalworkers through the Thunder Speakers and the Southern metalworkers through the Highland Kingdom be much more likely to generate an opportunity to find out how this metal is made?

The more trade links, the faster tech grows due to the communication of ideas.

As such, Copper now is primarily motivated by frustrated impatience more than any urgency
 
Plumbing is an economy booster, and it will allow to grow our cities very large, which also help us stay compact as a civilization.

Also hopefully make it easier on our half-exiles.
True... but its just as much of a boost to the tempting target stat, The People like to fight with black ops and its only a matter of time before someone tries something. Seriosly I'm not sure some the the other civs think you have a military of note.
Plus more access to copper means we can afford to use more copper in construction of everything, including chariots.
That is one method of upgrade. You could also get ideas to rebuild the cities with defense in mind if you see what others have done with their lands... so a quick diplo check on the neighbors is a god idea.
And frankly- we don't need peace in the Lowlands to Gift Salt.
While you don't need peace in the Lowlands, its best they are at peace with your guys. If they want to off each other that is their collective hobby.

Also, Salt Gifting one of the Civs at war is just asking for the other side to want their fix as well. Neutrality is useless if one major party thinks your in bed with the ones they hate this week.
 
@Academia Nut, considering the Stallions are explicitly capable of giving us military innovations, and that they mained chariots+plus have a lot of influence from the nomads who had spoked wheels IIRC, is there any chance that the People have finally made that connection or are any closer to making that connection?
 
[X] [Main] New Settlement - Southern Shores
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine X2
[X] [Kick] The Garden

One thing to remember is that Bronze is not a naturally occurring alloy. There'll never be a Bronze Mine like a Iron or Silver Mine. It's made from cooper, tin, and a variety of other metals.

So, getting the Mine not only boosts the Economy with a influx of cooper (that may be minted later) but has military applications too.
 
There are a lot of eloquent speakers in this thread. However-

[X] [Kick] The Garden
[X] [Main] Great Dam
[X] [Secondary] Great Dam x2
[X] [Kick] Great Dam
[X] [Kick] Great Dam x2

Right now there's only one talking my language!
 
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Stability 3 (emboldened)
So, new color! We know yellow is near or at limit, we can probably assume red is at limit and dangerous, so green would signify at capacity. A similar color was used to indicate goal completion during the Tax Crisis.

a big part was that the chiefs recognized that Valleyhome was a good test case to see if they could extend the concept to other large settlements
We can assume, once the megaproject is finished, there will be a Build Aqueducts action available. Furthermore, that action will fall under the Infrastructure (if it's an extended action) or the Expansion policies. Lastly, provided Build Aqueducts is taken enough times -- probably once for every major city in our provinces, including Lower Valleyhome, as well as each of our provincial capitals -- we can also assume that action will leave the action list and be folded into the New Settlement action. Overflow on the project, then, would thus be spent on building more aqueducts for our other cities.

while they weren't nearly as bad as rumours and legends suggested, they were still a thoroughly unpleasant lot, who yes, did have a wall studded with skulls around the centre of the city, which was at least as big as Valleyhome, if not larger
And while I'm still saddened at the loss of Sacred War and the Restore Harmony action it gave us, I'm pleased that we lost that trait. We have Cosmopolitan Acceptance counteracting our dislike of human sacrifice, but indubitably we'll be forced into a war if we still have Sacred War. Now, though, this should give us the idea to build expanded walls around our cultivated areas in Northshore and Stonepen capitals. Not quite that useful with the March still protecting us, but if we can't stumble into a solution to the uncentralized March problem sometime soon, the walls will become very relevant.

The one the People had the least issue with was definitely Tuultox, a spirit with the lower body of a snake and the upper body of a woman whose venom could serve as both disease and cure, something the more spiritually apt knew was true of most medicines, with the dosage and application making the difference
I would say that this is a prime candidate for syncretism but while Tuultox has the least barriers of all the gods of the Xohyssiri, that doesn't mean there's no barriers. The People really do not like the bloodthirstiness, though that's not quite one of Arxyn's flaws, yet. Still, all of the Ymaryn's major spirits originated from important figures from history and new aspects are acquired from migrants. We're probably not going to see her become part of our mythos without accepting considerably large amounts of refugees from the Xohyssiri.

And all the other gods are awful and we don't like them, as expected. Furthermore, judging by how they seem to have acquired their gods -- demonization of enemies, followed by propitiation and adoption -- Crow's likely to be safe from having hearts sacrificed to him. There's no impetus for the Xohyssiri to adopt him if we aren't fighting them, after all.

Of course, if we manage to hit them with a Diplomacy action (like a Salt Gift with added cultural exportation) when they're suffering a major instability period, we might be able to displace their religious practices and gods with some of our own. We do have some inklings toward that idea, as mention in the update. Unlikely to happen anytime soon, but if we get the Eastern Hills province, we'll border the Xohyssiri tributaries in the lowlands, who might be receptive to such ideas.

for all its gruesome character and unpleasant smell, the city of the Xohyssiri was prosperous and a major hub for trade, with numerous rare and exotic goods brought to an enormous square where they were exchanged and swapped
Naturally the second oldest polity in our region has a similar or larger capital city than we do. Unfortunately for them (and us! with our trade links to both their neighbors and our role as refuge to the region), it looks like they're a series of massive plagues waiting to happen. They don't seem to have a good sewage system (judging by the smell -- which their human sacrifice practice likely doesn't help), they have a prime disease-breeding ground in the form of the slums, and they're a major trade hub that gathers and distributes travelers and therefore disease from all over their known world. The cholera pandemic we just saw was just the latest, I would guess, and that disease should have depopulated their slums for at least a generation, so what we see now was probably worse before. The star pox generations earlier probably also became a pandemic because of this city.

In any case, they don't seem to produce anything else than ceramics in enough quantities to qualify for a tech transfer, unfortunately. However, better metalworking is gated behind better kilns, so provided we maintained strong trade links to the Xohyssiri, we should passively acquire the necessary tech advances eventually.

Now, the two leading plans are to either get copper and the attendant tools, or to reestablish trade links with the Highland Kingdom and the Thunder Speakers. Getting copper now means that, next turn, our New Trails action should result in more trails, and thus, possibly more progress made in bringing the March back into our core state. Getting the trade links means better chance of tech transfer, notably opium (a painkiller), as well as the possibility of an easier time influencing future geopolitical decisions -- like cultural annexation of the Highlands or preserving our Xohyssiri trade route when the next lowlands war flares up.

[X] [Main] New Settlement - Southern Shores
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine
[X] [Secondary] Copper Mine X2
[X] [Kick] The Garden
It's been around two turns since the end of the Tax Crisis, and I'd think we have ~3-5 turns from then before the March problem flares into a crisis. The original Ymaryn settlers of the March died out by the end of the crisis, and their children's generation should have died out by now. So, the people that are left are those who don't even have the memory of what our original values and expected behaviors are, nor were they raised by people who did remember. It takes around three generations for people to completely diverge, I think, and we don't have particularly good mobility between provinces as it is... So, striving to better integrate our potentially rebellious province rather than pursue things we can get later strikes me as best.
 
While you don't need peace in the Lowlands, its best they are at peace with your guys. If they want to off each other that is their collective hobby.

Also, Salt Gifting one of the Civs at war is just asking for the other side to want their fix as well. Neutrality is useless if one major party thinks your in bed with the ones they hate this week.
Except no party in the lowlands can afford to attack us. Or at least attack us enough to be a meaningful threat. Everyone in the lowlands hates each other, and would absolutely love for each other to expose themselves by dedicating forces to fighting us. We're not a pushover in terms of military capability, and no one with this much resources to throw around is weak.

As for agitating the TS by doing it, they're way to preoccupied to be concerned about it especially considering they've already ended their recent war against the HK. And courting some favor with the victors would hardly be considered flagrantly violating neutrality.
 
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