Paths of Civilization

Candesce · May 5, 2017

Abby Normal said:
but am i right in thinking that this is an iron deposit? And that finding iron deposits was one of hte main early issues with ironworking?

Was just going to bring that up myself. Yes, I do think you're right; hopefully the connection has been written down somewhere, because we're going to want to poke that again soon.

Powerofmind said:
Hiding the secret, however, ensures that there's yet another disease everybody else gets hit by that we don't

This means we get hit by more LoO triggers when we're still short a good way to recover stability.

I understand you might not care about that much, but I at least would prefer the stability to the econ at this moment.

Manget · May 5, 2017

[X] A significant number (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
[X] Keep it secret (Chance of Stability loss)
[X] Megaproject Support

Umi-san · May 5, 2017

Abby Normal said:
...I'm not sure what that has to do with my points, though?

Also, everyone's been so distracted with chalcolithic jon snow that i haven't seen anyone mention this, but am i right in thinking that this is an iron deposit? And that finding iron deposits was one of hte main early issues with ironworking?

you are indeed correct <3 <3

redzonejoe said:
What's with this seemingly arbitrary need to finish a megaproject in one turn?

[X] A significant number (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
[X] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)
[X] Expansion

I'd actually prefer the -2 stability refuge option paired with starting saltern to even out the loss, but apparently people want garden + megaproject support for some reason?

<3 <3 my fave vote

Academia Nut said:
Despite the tax snafu, you still have the finest taxmen in the known world. Your priests are considered odd in that most of them are very practical people, even if they also study esoteric subjects. Your shamans are less mysterious and more approachable, although they also maintain a very tight grip on anything they legitimately consider dangerous.

I'm glad we're extremely Danish in outlook.

pblur said:
Why Garden? Saltern seems to have better synergy and bonuses, and was even hinted at as a really good option by AN before the last update.

Saltern will take two turns to complete rather than one, and thus might not have better synergy if the disease ends in one turn.

It does seem more appropriate if it's assumed that we'll be venturing into the outside world, however. Otherwise, The Garden fits the judicious path much more.

Motoko · May 5, 2017

VoidZero said:
Vote for the Saltern next turn plan!
[] Megaproject Support
[] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)
[] A significant number (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)

This combo allows us to sit at 0 stability beginning of next turn and +1 stability for end of next turn, when we start on saltern mega project. With (low) chance of +2 stability if Greater Good trait triggers.
While the lowlanders are in raging war between HK civil war/TH and TH Eastern/ DP.

It also bumps our economy to 7 while remaining in baby boom, and prevents our cultural from being diluted by massive refugee flood!

[X] No more than usual (Tiny chance of Stability loss)
[X] Keep it secret (Chance of Stability loss)
[X] Megaproject Support
This vote gives us a serious advantage over our neighbours, Isn't likely to tank our stability and leaves us plenty ready for the megaproject. I have no idea why you guys are attempting to go full shiny grab when we really shouldn't risk it. Lets just take the safe route, and do some megaprojects rather than spending our free turns getting our damn stability back!

bluefur87 · May 5, 2017

pblur said:
Why Garden? Saltern seems to have better synergy and bonuses, and was even hinted at as a really good option by AN before the last update.

redzonejoe said:
I'd actually prefer the -2 stability refuge option paired with starting saltern to even out the loss, but apparently people want garden + megaproject support for some reason?

The garden is quicker and, well, I have to ask on this part. @Academia Nut Will divine stewards count towards the Saltern in giving us econ when it finishes?

But yeah, even if it does, the garden is quicker so we can reasonably finish it in one turn.

Citino said:
Wait...

Holy shit, does anyone else even have honey? We're the only forest dwellers, so...

Ah yes, I forgot to point that out in all the panic. We can sell our honey. Honestly, us spreading this information is a giant culture conversion of all our neighbors who will listen to us.

pblur · May 5, 2017

Sivantic said:
No we don't. Sharing means that they stabilize and try and drag us into their war again.

That in no way responds to what I said.

Shadowend · May 5, 2017

[X] No more than usual (Tiny chance of Stability loss)
[X] Keep it secret (Chance of Stability loss)
[X] Megaproject Support

keenscythe · May 5, 2017

lioli said:
*snip*

Thanks, I hadn't realized that.

changing vote again.

[X] A significant number (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
[X] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)
[X] Megaproject Support

hYGP · May 5, 2017

Another thing I'd like to revive: Value Generation.

We spent so much effort and lives to one-shot disease. We have Land of Oppurtunity, which frankly generates Econ at a horrifyingly efficient rate, not to mention all the other various benefits we picked up. Do we really want to dilute LoO for some short term political gain when the lowlands are pretty much killing themselves without the disease helping them?

Reader of all · May 5, 2017

Motoko said:
[X] No more than usual (Tiny chance of Stability loss)
[X] Keep it secret (Chance of Stability loss)
[X] Megaproject Support
This vote gives us a serious advantage over our neighbours, Isn't likely to tank our stability and leaves us plenty ready for the megaproject. I have no idea why you guys are attempting to go full shiny grab when we really shouldn't risk it. Lets just take the safe route, and do some megaprojects rather than spending our free turns getting our damn stability back!

That plan has a chance of going -2 stab without any gains

hylas240 · May 5, 2017

bluefur87 said:
The garden is quicker and, well, I have to ask on this part. @Academia Nut Will divine stewards count towards the Saltern in giving us econ when it finishes?

But yeah, even if it does, the garden is quicker so we can reasonably finish it in one turn.

Ah yes, I forgot to point that out in all the panic. We can sell our honey. Honestly, us spreading this information is a giant culture conversion of all our neighbors who will listen to us.

Academia Nut said:
Saltern - Building in the sea and experience with wall construction and fish traps suggests the possibility of trapping large amounts of water to extract tremendous quantities of salt [Stewards] (4-7? action commitment, -1 Econ per action)

Yes.

Katsuragi · May 5, 2017

[X] The whole lowlands are kind of a mess, you know? (-3 Stability, +6-8 Econ, other effects)
[X] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)
[X] Megaproject Support

Academia Nut · May 5, 2017

Reader of all said:
is the -3 stability LOO action a mass diplo annex action meaning that along with the refugees we will also get territory in the low lands?

In this case, no, because you're actually drawing 1 point from each of three separate groups: Highlanders with their civil war, lowland vassal minors with cholera, and lowland Thunder Horse with cholera.

bluefur87 said:
Will divine stewards count towards the Saltern in giving us econ when it finishes?

Both the saltern and garden will trigger the bonuses from Stewards and Neolithic canal.

SpeckofStardust · May 5, 2017

huhYeahGoodPoint said:
Another thing I'd like to revive: Value Generation.

We spent so much effort and lives to one-shot disease. We have Land of Oppurtunity, which frankly generates Econ at a horrifyingly efficient rate, not to mention all the other various benefits we picked up. Do we really want to dilute LoO for some short term political gain when the lowlands are pretty much killing themselves without the disease helping them?

LoO every turn is not good for us.

Karugus · May 5, 2017

[X] A significant number (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
[X] Share with even those who don't want to listen (-1 Diplomacy, +1 immediate Stability, chance for additional stability, other effects)
[X] Megaproject Support

Just because they know doesn't indicate that they have the centralization to effectively implement it anyways. The HK are in a civil war that's liable to gut centralization, the TH are in a major 3 way war and have low centralization to begin with, etc. The only people that might be able to reliably use it soon are the Metalworkers and the Sea Raiders.

Sivantic · May 5, 2017

bluefur87 said:
So, if we were to take in no more than usual refugees and spread the information as much as we can, we have good odds of ending up at 1 Stability, decent odds of ending up at 2.

Salterns gives us Stability 1 just for starting it, so we don't really need to give out the cure to achieve that.

Candesce said:
his means we get hit by more LoO triggers when we're still short a good way to recover stability.

I understand you might not care about that much, but I at least would prefer the stability to the econ at this moment.

Not if we keep those to a minimum by not taking them. Like we absolutely can right now.

pbluekan · May 5, 2017

pblur said:
Smallpox vaccination is not sanitation. It doesn't provide herd immunity, and it won't up the market for salt. We have much better ressons to share this than that.

Smallpox vaccination very specifically does provide herd immunity. That's part of what vaccinations are good for.

Sharing sanitation theory will do little to up the market for salt. You guys are overestimating how much salt is used in the making of basic sanitary saline solution(which is what that honey, water, and salt mixture is). The amount needed for efficient food preservation dwarfs the amount used in sanitation, and effectively makes any impact on the salt market by the introduction of sanitation minimal. How much salt do you think is in saline solution anyway?

Boiling is the more important aspect of the process anyway, as that is what actually cleans the water for use, and that can be accomplished anywhere.

Have any of you even considered that any trade bonus from sharing this secret will be entirely outweighed by our neighbors and enemies dying in droves? The prosperity of our people of far more importance than the fucking price of salt.

Citino · May 5, 2017

Academia Nut said:
Both the saltern and garden will trigger the bonuses from Stewards and Neolithic canal.

So we can 1 turn the garden, get 2 stability from it, then push out the Saltern for another 1 stability? Well... shit. We're really broken now...

hylas240 · May 5, 2017

Reader of all said:
That plan has a chance of going -2 stab without any gains

That's extreme pessimism, as the "tiny chance" is like 5-10%. You can't legit believe that this has a reasonable chance of happening unless you just want to nitpick because it's not a plan you agree with.

bluefur87 · May 5, 2017

huhYeahGoodPoint said:
Another thing I'd like to revive: Value Generation.

We spent so much effort and lives to one-shot disease. We have Land of Oppurtunity, which frankly generates Econ at a horrifyingly efficient rate, not to mention all the other various benefits we picked up. Do we really want to dilute LoO for some short term political gain when the lowlands are pretty much killing themselves without the disease helping them?

It's long term political gain. People will look to us and defer to us on spiritual matters, in addition to relying on our trade goods to deal with important aspects of life.

This is how we convert the lowlands and bring them under our influence.

hylas240 · May 5, 2017

Citino said:
So we can 1 turn the garden, get 2 stability from it, then push out the Saltern? Well... shit. We're really broken now...

We also get art and mysticism as they're both engineering projects.

Umi-san · May 5, 2017

[X] hylas240

SpeckofStardust · May 5, 2017

pbluekan said:
Smallpox vaccination very specifically does provide herd immunity. That's part of what vaccinations are good for.

Sharing sanitation theory will do little to up the market for salt. You guys are overestimating how much salt is used in the making of basic sanitary saline solution(which is what that honey, water, and salt mixture is). The amount needed for efficient food preservation dwarfs the amount used in sanitation, and effectively makes any impact on the salt market by the introduction of sanitation minimal. How much salt do you think is in saline solution anyway?

Boiling is the more important aspect of the process anyway, as that is what actually cleans the water for use, and that can be accomplished anywhere.

Have any of you even considered that any trade bonus from sharing this secret will be entirely outweighed by our neighbors and enemies dying in droves? The prosperity of our people of far more importance than the fucking price of salt.

WE want to basically sell the cure NOT THE SALT.

Potato and Chip · May 5, 2017

[X] A significant number (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
[X] Keep it secret (Chance of Stability loss)
[X] Restoration

Sivantic · May 5, 2017

Karugus said:
Just because they know doesn't indicate that they have the centralization to effectively implement it anyways. The HK are in a civil war that's liable to gut centralization, the TH are in a major 3 way war and have low centralization to begin with, etc. The only people that might be able to reliably use it soon are the Metalworkers and the Sea Raiders.

It does however both give them incentive to do so and a means to get out of the chaos they are currently in. The longer they are stuck fighting and dying, the more leeway we have to solving our current problems, like the troubles with our March, literacy, and dealing with the megaproject we are likely to start.

I'd rather they not put their nose in our business when we deal with that.

Paths of Civilization

Procrastinating.

Herald of Iron to The People

Reminiscing over the halcyon days of Ymaryn

No longer NEET

The 1%

Somethin's Fucky ...

Procrastinating.