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Paths of Civilization

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[X] Snub him (Small chance of -1 Stability)
[X] Stop trading with both (-4 Diplomacy)
[X] We will find land for you to settle (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)

Augh, should have argued and voted in the horrible tax vote.
 
Kiba said:
We are definitely most like the Inca.
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Now we just need the Chasqui
Seriously this is the answer to our communication problem said:
The Chasquis (also Chaskis) were agile, highly trained and physically fit[1] messengers that were in charge of carrying the quipus, messages and gifts throughout the Inca empire. A message could travel up to 240 km per day through the chasquis relay system. Chasquis were not just messengers (those were young boys who were just used to pass along basic information[1]), the chasquis were trained to be able to read and translate the khipus to each other and higher authorities
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240 km =150 miles. Thats about 75% of the longest straight line in our territory.
 
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bluefur87 said:
You do realize that was in response to whether or not he'd be alive next turn, right?

So again.
:Citation Needed:
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hylas240 said:
Why are you assuming he's going to take the final snub well? AN said he'd probably stay where he is.
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bluefur87 said:
Probably is very good. Literally as good as we can possibly get from a future event from AN.
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Uhh, no. It was regarding him staying in his providence.

Also, you are again ignoring my points and just nitpicking.

What are you trying to do here exactly? Are you trying to "win" the argument? This isn't about "winning" it's about constructive discussion.

If you're just going to continue nitpicking and driving this into circular argument, then i'm done discussing the pros/cons of the hero as our king.
 
Okay, so assuming we drop down to -1 stability again, what's the plan? Can we continue to try out various possible solutions for the crisis while we get our stability up to something reasonable, or will we have to focus entirely on The Law?
 
Kiba said:
If we get drums, we get to effectively bypass the runner system altogether and we would be OP.
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Plus we would create the Booming Forests. "The trees talk to each other man!" ;)
Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Apr 28, 2017 at 9:53 PM, finished with 24372 posts and 60 votes.
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Kiba said:
If we get drums, we get to effectively bypass the runner system altogether and we would be OP.
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I'm not confident we are able to transmit messages like "nomad invading east village, number dozens, need help" correctly.

Doubling up with messengers or message carrying pigeon, probably.
 
General
Diplomacy 8->9

We got a point of diplomacy from somewhere. Probably those boats.

Economy 4 (+1)->3 (+1)

Economy makes a small loss, but plenty of float to do everything with.

Academia Nut said:
[X] [Main] The Law
[X] [Secondary] Grand Sacrifice x2 (M: -3 Econ, +2 Stability)
[x] [Kick] The Law

Valleyhome - Study Stars
Redshore - Expand Economy
Northshore - New Settlement (western shore)

Stallion Tribes - [M] New Settlement, [Sec] Build Wall, [Sec] More Boats
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Baby boom slots expanded again, and he gets a point of Mysticism for himself, while securing his territory and reestablishing connections.
Stars were studied as expected.

The chiefs had come to two conclusions about the situation. The first was that there were fundamental problems with not just the taxes but the rules in general, and they needed to be flattened out and smoothed over in order to actually effectively govern.
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And this here is the simplified laws that we're looking for. Cwriid is barking up the wrong tree even as we fix it.
The second was that they absolutely needed to demonstrate to the People that they weren't corrupt and greedy, and thus a series of grand sacrifices were called for, to unite the People in asking for forgiveness from the spirits and ancestors, and to also eliminate the sort of excess wealth that lead to division and strife. And to a large degree it went well, but unfortunately even as the kings and chiefs were sending out shamans and administrators to record down and consolidate every last rule and way that the People thought things were done, it came up that several granaries that were projected to be full instead ran empty, and emergency supplies had to be rushed in from elsewhere.
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Econ loss event hit
Thankfully the weather held and there were no other great crises, but the way the administrators were poking at people instead of doing something immediately and obviously useful for correcting the issue definitely irritated many of the People.
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Kicker hit.

While the Young Stallion was becoming the Old Stallion, there were also a fresh generation of Young Stallions who had grown up on tales of their parents telling them that things used to be better, that the granaries used to overflow. Cwriid building boats and encouraging the young and disgruntled to migrate to his distant province drained away some of the tensions, but in those distant lands they could also become more radical. The Old Stallion did things differently, partially because the majority of the population outside of the new village he was building on the shores of one of the great rivers that drained into the sea were nomads who had always done things differently, partially because he wanted them done differently. If anything, his successes had only entrenched his desires to see through reforms, returning taxation and distribution to how they had been while also ensuring that no one could have their birthrights stripped from them.
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And of course, he gets the short and mid term effective route and undid the reforms, which since everyone there shared his opinions, worked fine for now.
The fact that he had married into all of the tribes he had conquered and thus had several dozen surviving children, including a dozen male heirs who were to become the leaders of each of the twelve tribes he had under his sway, meant that even after he passed on his legacy and ideals would remain. While there were some who were turned off by his adoption of a number of foreign trappings, he had a definite appeal, especially for young warriors, and the number of marriageable daughters he had also allowed him to develop and establish numerous alliances with the more successful and ambitious of those young men, as well as with foreign groups for trade and agreements of peace. It was most certainly an effective system he had set up, and the fact that he willingly burned many of the trophies he had taken in conquest reassured many that no, he had not allowed his success or contact with foreign elements to completely go to his head, and he still practiced the humility and generosity expected of the People.
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Okay, looks like he changed some cultural values here:
-He kept Humility
-He kept Greater Good
-He kept Harmony
-He kept Land of Opportunity
-He picked up the Nomad Family First trait
-He lost ??? in exchange. I'm not sure if this is Divine Stewards, Honorable Death or Justice
Of course, it was also pretty obvious that over the past few elections for king he had been repeatedly snubbed despite being theoretically in the running, but now that he had been in charge for a generation, he had young heirs who could take over his position as chief of his province, and his hair was going grey further refusals to make him king were going to be taken much more seriously. Of course, given that his position was still that he wanted radical reform, there were many among the chiefs who were uncomfortable with the idea of his becoming king.
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Fortunately, we've changed the situation enough that we can snub him for no more than grumbling.

If the People were just dealing with tax issues, that would be bad enough, but as always new problems were cropping up. The biggest one was that the Thunder Horse and Highlanders had finally made contact with each other, Thunder Horse raids reaching territory the Highland Kingdom claimed was under its protection, and they were now coming to blows. The People would have to either pick one side to trade with or pull out their traders entirely to avoid getting entangled in the conflict. Or straight up declare for one side or the other and begin fighting, which while it turned off a few, there were enough distant relatives of the Thunder Horse among the absorbed nomads that Cwriid by far favoured them the most. It was also pointed out that attacking the Highlands Kingdom would probably allow for the settlements along the Great River to be secured, ensuring the safety of travelers along the entire length of the badlands route in the future.
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And the Lowland Brawl kicks off again.

I don't want any part of that.

And then, on top of all of that, the southern boat raiders had made more proper contact with the People, and the situation had become a bit more clear. In the mountains and hills to the southwest, beyond the sea and out of the reach of the Highlanders there were a number of kingdoms along the course of river valleys there, and recently they had exploded into a round of violence, dumping people into the fishing villages along the rivers that emptied into the sea. While some of those fishers had taken to carrying a club with them when they went out, in case they saw anything along the shore that they might like to take for themselves, the more recent uptick of hostile boats had more to do with this fresh chaos in distant lands, and there were many who were now just looking for somewhere safe to settle.
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...Lowland Brawl Mk2 it looks like.
If we take in the refugees the raids will probably taper off for a while, as there's less people going bandit.

Crisis Results: -1 Econ, Grand Sacrifice grants +1 Turns to resolve crisis
March: Absorbs 1 Econ growth form Baby Boom, +1 Diplomacy
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+1 turn is a massive boon for us. We can clear this even if we take 2 Stability hits this turn with another Main Grand Sacrifice, followed by a festival at the end.

Provided we don't get stuck in another war.

[] Elect Cwriid heir (+1 Stability, Crisis Ends on his terms)

Lets see, revert the reforms that we're ALMOST done fixing(1-2 turns left), have land ownership change to the less effective form...in exchange for +1 Stability and 1 turn of Hero unit?

There's no reason to choose this unless you never wanted the reforms to begin with, in which case you're one of the Young Stallions.

[] Snub him (Small chance of -1 Stability)

Merely -1 Stability, and merely a risk. He's too old now to initiate a civil war. Best choice, we can cope with a hit.

[] Suppress the Young Stallion movement (-1 Stability, +1 Turns to resolve crisis, small chance of civil war)

Kind of pointless to do this right now. If we want to suppress the movement, lets finish the Laws first and make sure their Hero is dead of old age before we move on them. The best assassin is time.

[] Keep trading with both (Large chance of one of the two declaring war, tiny chance of both declaring war)
[] Stop trading with the Thunder Horse (-2 Diplomacy, chance of the Thunder Horse declaring war)
[] Stop trading with the Highlanders (-3 Diplomacy, small chance of the Highlanders declaring war)
[] Stop trading with both (-4 Diplomacy)
[] Declare war on the Highlanders (-2 Diplomacy)
[] Declare war on the Thunder Horse (-1 Diplomacy, small chance of civil war, cannot be taken if Cwriid king)

No reason to go into this brawl at all.
Just stop trading with both and let them beat each other up before working things out with the winner.

[] We have our own problems (Large chance of -1 Stability)
[] We will find land for you to settle (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)

The Econ would pay for another Grand Sacrifice!

So vote will be:

[X] Snub him (Small chance of -1 Stability)
[X] Stop trading with both (-4 Diplomacy)
[X] We will find land for you to settle (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
 
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hylas240 said:
Uhh, no. It was regarding him staying in his providence.

Also, you are again ignoring my points and just nitpicking.

What are you trying to do here exactly? Are you trying to "win" the argument? This isn't about "winning" it's about constructive discussion.

If you're just going to continue nitpicking and driving this into circular argument, then i'm done discussing the pros/cons of the hero as our king.
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It's about constructive discussion when the other side hasn't set their dam heels in to prove themselves right.

This argument isn't circular, you simply have put forward zero evidence to support any such claims. You're quote from AN was about whether or not we would get him as an option again. The answer said he 'probably wouldn't, but if he isn't, his heir will be.'

No where in that quote did it say he would rebel. It is, in fact, implicitly implied he wouldn't rebel. It is also implicitly implied that he maybe has one more turn left in him, but probably not.

That means you are taking our nice, lovely hero unit, away from where he can do things like [Main] Trade Mission-Nomads and [Secondary] *Insert martial action here.* to set up a defense in a province that is very likely going to get attacked next turn and dump him on a megaproject that he will need to focus all of his time on to no great advantage before he dies.

You also pulled out a definition of probably from when the WC didn't collapse, phrased in such a way that it was obvious we were cutting it close.

You claimed we would face a civil war, there is one action that says we would have a small chance of civil war. I am not advocating that action.

This is why I am angry. For all the complaints about fearmongering that the hero unit would destroy our society from people who want him to be king, I see equal wild claims that he, for some reason, needs to be king.


I have put forward very good reasons for why he shouldn't be king, they are being ignored by a not insignificant amount of people to turn around and justify their own opinion. You want this to be a 'respectable' argument, then you should actually show respect for my argument, give it serious consideration, and not throw offhand quotes at me that do literally nothing to prove your point.
 
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[X] Snub him (Small chance of -1 Stability)
[X] Stop trading with both (-4 Diplomacy)
[X] We will find land for you to settle (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
 
VoidZero said:
Not when you really need those messages yesterday.

Loyal and dedicated messengers are hard to find, horses aren't.

Also, messengers need to deliver their messages; so ways to avoid injury or death are great.
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No, we need a dedicated infrastructure and system. Relay towers, good roads, dedicated training, etc.

Blackbirds are not good for this.
 
[X] Snub him (Small chance of -1 Stability)
[X] Stop trading with both (-4 Diplomacy)
[X] We will find land for you to settle (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
 
veekie said:
Lets see, revert the reforms that we're ALMOST done fixing(1-2 turns left), have land ownership change to the less effective form...in exchange for +1 Stability and 1 turn of Hero unit?

There's no reason to choose this unless you never wanted the reforms to begin with, in which case you're one of the Young Stallions.
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He's a dual diplo/martial hero, not to mention the fact that snubbing him is going to almost certainly weaken our hold on the new province, plus puts out some pretty bad precedents in regards to heroic warriors in the future. If someone like Cwiid can't become king, why should any other warior expect to be able to do so?
 
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[X] Snub him (Small chance of -1 Stability)
[X] Stop trading with both (-4 Diplomacy)
[X] We will find land for you to settle (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
 
[X] Snub him (Small chance of -1 Stability)
[X] Stop trading with both (-4 Diplomacy)
[X] We will find land for you to settle (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)

Not seeing any advantage to electing him when the worst he can do is cause less Stability loss than refugees.
 
Citino said:
He's a dual diplo/martial hero, not to mention the fact that snubbing him is going to almost certainly weaken our hold on the new province, plus puts out some pretty bad precedents in regards to heroic warriors in the future. If someone like Cwiid can't become king, why should any other king expect to be able to do so?
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Please point to me the part where it says he is a disloyal person who will turn on us at the first opportunity.

Weren't you bragging about how loyal he is?

This, again, is why I am so mad. You just spent pages complaining about people fearmongering, and yet here you are, doing it when it suits you.
 
bluefur87 said:
Please point to me the part where it says he is a disloyal person who will turn on us at the first opportunity.

Weren't you bragging about how loyal he is?

This, again, is why I am so mad. You just spent pages complaining about people fearmongering, and yet here you are, doing it when it suits you.
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Reread what I said. Those are all long term issues. Our hero is fine, but what about the next hero who grows up with stories about how Cwriid's reward was to be sent to rule a distant province rather than become king? The people of the province are also loyal to Cwriid himself, so if he doesn't become king, that loyalty never transfers completely to the people.

Thus, long term, skipping him is an incredibly shitty option.

Edit: It is not fearmongering, there is no immediate danger. But it makes things more difficult in the future, in return for making it easy on us now. That is what I am trying to warn of, not that we are going to have him suddenly overthrow the government next turn.
 
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Citino said:
Reread what I said. Those are all long term issues. Our hero is fine, but what about the next hero who grows up with stories about how Cwriid's reward was to be sent to rule a distant province rather than become king? The people of the province are also loyal to Cwriid himself, so if he doesn't become king, that loyalty never transfers completely to the people.

Thus, long term, skipping him is an incredibly shitty option.

Edit: It is not fearmongering, there is no immediate danger. But it makes things more difficult in the future, in return for making it easy on us now. That is what I am trying to warn of, not that we are going to have him suddenly overthrow the government next turn.
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Long term, legetimizing someone who is using populist movements to change the government is also a dangerous concern. I'm not making that argument because we would have time to fix that. Just like we have time to increase our control over the March long term. A lot of crap happens long term. It is worth hypothesizing about and theorizing about, but long term can go so many ways that jumping at those shadows is silly. When I think long term in this game, I think what we need to get there mostly.

We will have time to put out that fire and it will be especially effective with laws.

It is fear mongering when you are twisting logic to suit your needs by making people afraid of the other outcome based on super distant possibilities. You are absolutely guilty of the thing you just spent several pages railing against. That is why, despite failing more than I would like, I explicitly try to look at the positive side of plans.

Consider this a not so friendly call out on your own logic so you can take a step back and seriously ask yourself how much of a danger what you are proposing would happen in a bad case scenario really is.
 
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