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Paths of Civilization

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Up until the creation of the modern state apparatus, personal relations where the only way to make any system or relation work. From Rome to aztecs to china( yes even china's vaunted bureaucracy was based on patronage and familial links)


In short; establishing marriage ties and solidifying familial links and casting a wide net of patronage, is the normal thing to do up until the modern day and age. And even today it's still normal in many parts of the world.
 
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[X] Elect Cwriid heir (+1 Stability, Crisis Ends on his terms)
[X] Stop trading with both (-4 Diplomacy)
[X] We will find land for you to settle (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)

Having a heroic martial and diplo hero is amazing...I don't want to let him go. He wants to revert the taxation reform and change the land management to communal hereditary...this isn't bad. We're never going to get the perfect result for everything and trying to steam roll to try and reach it is kinda crazy. Also, electing him doesn't stop The Law from going on (AN has confirmed that) so we still get the great benefits from it. If everyone wants to we can change the tax laws when it comes up again later.

I'd rather expend the diplo on staying neutral (since it would only cost 1 more than snubbing the HK). Let's just sit back and benefit from the massive refugee waves that'll be generated from this war! When the DP come back (which they almost certainly will...and when the TH and HK are weakened from the war) then we'll be fresh enough to beat them back and take even more refugees from the smacked TH and HK (from the DP resurgence).

Everyone looks at the hero and sees a Robert Baratheon and I disagree. I see an extremely competent general, incredibly skilled diplomat, and an inspiring leader.

He's not going to ruin our civ, so let's stop pretending he will.
 
hylas240 said:
[X] Elect Cwriid heir (+1 Stability, Crisis Ends on his terms)
[X] Stop trading with both (-4 Diplomacy)
[X] We will find land for you to settle (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)

Having a heroic martial and diplo hero is amazing...I don't want to let him go. He wants to revert the taxation reform and change the land management to communal hereditary...this isn't bad. We're never going to get the perfect result for everything and trying to steam roll to try and reach it is kinda crazy. Also, electing him doesn't stop The Law from going on (AN has confirmed that) so we still get the great benefits from it. If everyone wants to we can change the tax laws when it comes up again later.

I'd rather expend the diplo on staying neutral (since it would only cost 1 more than snubbing the HK). Let's just sit back and benefit from the massive refugee waves that'll be generated from this war! When the DP come back (which they almost certainly will...and when the TH and HK are weakened from the war) then we'll be fresh enough to beat them back and take even more refugees from the smacked TH and HK (from the DP resurgence).

Everyone looks at the hero and sees a Robert Baratheon and I disagree. I see an extremely competent general, incredibly skilled diplomat, and an inspiring leader.

He's not going to ruin our civ, so let's stop pretending he will.
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Not communal hereditary.
Completely hereditary, like HK or TH.
 
pblur said:
I havent seen a sane answer to why the antistallion crowd thinks he'll both want to and be able to institute a hereditary monarchy.

His marrying in to leadership of the tribes was necessary, for the same sorts of reasons as the traders. That doesnt indicate that this extremely meritorious leader will abandon meritocracy.

And land heredity != title heredity. The second hasn't been on the table for a long time.
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Land heredity means that rich families only get richer over time. Extremely wealthy families are much better positioned to force hereditary titles. By restricting unearned wealth (ie, that which is inherited) we can more likely ensure that people who get power have earned it.
 
[X] Elect Cwriid heir (+1 Stability, Crisis Ends on his terms)
[X] Stop trading with both (-4 Diplomacy)
[X] We will find land for you to settle (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
 
hylas240 said:
He's not going to ruin our civ, so let's stop pretending he will
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maybe not, but hes gonna change it in ways we dont like. And the change will get cemented over his rule, not go away when he kicks it.
He's not a complete douche, but I don't want him in charge. He and his can keep their province.
 
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hylas240 said:
[X] Elect Cwriid heir (+1 Stability, Crisis Ends on his terms)
[X] Stop trading with both (-4 Diplomacy)
[X] We will find land for you to settle (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)

Having a heroic martial and diplo hero is amazing...I don't want to let him go. He wants to revert the taxation reform and change the land management to communal hereditary...this isn't bad. We're never going to get the perfect result for everything and trying to steam roll to try and reach it is kinda crazy. Also, electing him doesn't stop The Law from going on (AN has confirmed that) so we still get the great benefits from it. If everyone wants to we can change the tax laws when it comes up again later.

I'd rather expend the diplo on staying neutral (since it would only cost 1 more than snubbing the HK). Let's just sit back and benefit from the massive refugee waves that'll be generated from this war! When the DP come back (which they almost certainly will...and when the TH and HK are weakened from the war) then we'll be fresh enough to beat them back and take even more refugees from the smacked TH and HK (from the DP resurgence).

Everyone looks at the hero and sees a Robert Baratheon and I disagree. I see an extremely competent general, incredibly skilled diplomat, and an inspiring leader.

He's not going to ruin our civ, so let's stop pretending he will.
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I mean, sure. We could make him a king and have him not do all the tax things we want, getting us maybe a turn for him to do stuff before he dies. A turn where we will be finishing the Law with most, if not all, of our actions, when it looks like we will actually be able to pull of this tax thing that most of us wanted, but didn't think would go through.

Or we could let his heroic martial and diplo go to work as the head of a march state, where he makes good decisions, starts diplomancing surrounding nomads, inventing new martial tech, secure his province, teach his heir, and set up a more solid transfer of power than he could do if he was king.

Don't just pursue the shiny because it's a shiny. Ask what does the shiny do? Where do we need to put the shiny? Because we already have this guy as a shiny.
 
tenchifew said:
Not communal hereditary.
Completely hereditary, like HK or TH.
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Actchualy~
Academia Nut said:
The assignment of land management and the like passes down through family lines, although unassigned land is assigned by the local chiefs if a need arises.
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Academia Nut said:
Theoretically the community can force people out with cause if they are badly abusing the land they are assigned.
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He promotes communal hereditary.
 
DocMatoi said:
maybe not, but hes gonna change it in ways we dont like. And the change will get cemented over his rule, not go away when he kicks it.
He's not a complete douche, but I don't want him in charge. He and his can keep their province.
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Maybe it's for our good that we learn how to work with an imperfect system instead of cramming every good idea down the People's throat.
 
[X] Snub him (Small chance of -1 Stability)
[X] Stop trading with both (-4 Diplomacy)
[X] We will find land for you to settle (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
 
Kiba said:
Maybe it's for our good that we learn how to work with an imperfect system instead of cramming every good idea down the People's throat.
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Ehhhh....
Imperfect? Sure.
Conducive to conditions that are anathema to our culture? No thanks.
Adhoc vote count started by DocMatoi on Apr 28, 2017 at 9:00 PM, finished with 24330 posts and 56 votes.
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tenchifew said:
Ok, I was misremembering then.
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The biggest and best advantage of C-hereditary over P-hereditary is that technically, the state still has rights to all land. In the future, when we can manage the logistics of it better, this means that our govt can (if not easily) more easily manage a step or two back towards communal land control.
 
tryrar said:
So, we're agreed then he isn't going to completely wreck our civilization in ways we can't imagine if he becomes king? I mean, you can not like the changes he wants, and that's fine, but calling him an enemy of the state is a little much
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If AN confirms that the appearance of the march was really the result of distance and not a pushed forward reason to cover a de facto rebellion, than yes.
 
SirKaid said:
Land heredity means that rich families only get richer over time. Extremely wealthy families are much better positioned to force hereditary titles. By restricting unearned wealth (ie, that which is inherited) we can more likely ensure that people who get power have earned it.
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Indeed, but keep in mind that wealth must accumulate in great amount for innovation to occur ( historically at least) and whilst it's true that throughout history peasants where getting shafted in ever more innovative ways, their (relative )suffering and loss of rights and power caused great accumulation of wealth to anyone who wasn't a peasant.

And over several hundred or even thousand of years this wealth was spent on luxuries and innovations which improved everyone's life, which only increased as new innovations( financial ones) came.


The point is, as inhumane as it may sound to many a modern person,
Stratified societies and the disempowerment of the peasantry. Is what created modern societies .
 
[X] Elect Cwriid heir (+1 Stability, Crisis Ends on his terms)
[X] Stop trading with the Highlanders (-3 Diplomacy, small chance of the Highlanders declaring war)
[X] We will find land for you to settle (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
 
DocMatoi said:
maybe not, but hes gonna change it in ways we dont like. And the change will get cemented over his rule, not go away when he kicks it.
He's not a complete douche, but I don't want him in charge. He and his can keep their province.
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The changes he will implement won't be terrible though. Any changes he implements that we really don't want can just be removed down the line, it's not like any decisions he makes will be impossible to remove (this is the stone age after all).

bluefur87 said:
I mean, sure. We could make him a king and have him not do all the tax things we want, getting us maybe a turn for him to do stuff before he dies. A turn where we will be finishing the Law with most, if not all, of our actions, when it looks like we will actually be able to pull of this tax thing that most of us wanted, but didn't think would go through.

Or we could let his heroic martial and diplo go to work as the head of a march state, where he makes good decisions, starts diplomancing surrounding nomads, inventing new martial tech, secure his province, teach his heir, and set up a more solid transfer of power than he could do if he was king.

Don't just pursue the shiny because it's a shiny. Ask what does the shiny do? Where do we need to put the shiny? Because we already have this guy as a shiny.
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Why are you assuming he's going to take the final snub well? AN said he'd probably stay where he is. There's a legitimate chance that he'd start a rebellion, or his sons would. The providence he made isn't going to disappear just because he's king, so we'll still keep the bonuses from it.

Please don't dismiss my reasoning as mindless pursuit of shiny. I have valid reasons for wanting him, while you are being particularly optimistic on how things will happen. He's going to take this snub seriously (after being passed over so many times).
 
[X] Elect Cwriid heir (+1 Stability, Crisis Ends on his terms)
[X] Stop trading with the Highlanders (-3 Diplomacy, small chance of the Highlanders declaring war)
[X] We will find land for you to settle (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)

I am liking the thought of making the guy king after all we are a meritocracy and he has both heroic diplo and heroic martial making him yhe best guy for the job so if we take him then help out the thunderhorses we can then diplo annex them and while his land management is... Eh I can live with it.
 
If we make him king, the province is more likely to be integrated. If we snub him, it's much more likely to be independent.

If we snub him, we are going to have to focus effort on making sure that said military state won't break away, like double main boat or something.
 
[X] Snub him (Small chance of -1 Stability)
[X] Stop trading with both (-4 Diplomacy)
[X] We will find land for you to settle (-1 Stability, +2 Econ)
 
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