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Paths of Civilization

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@veekie wouldn't/didn't protest that squads come from something other than having more warriors to organize into squads or a need to do so to have more fluid movement in the case of carts. Carts will provide better material tech due to planks, and maybe if we get a DO cart treated leather, too.
Armor maybe comes from more warriors but the ability to do so comes from material technology.
Study Forest is more likely to provide poisons and cotton than blackbirds or farming alone. Study Health is more likely to provide medicine than warriors.
Raids on the DP are an easy/reliable way of getting tech for armor and weapons.
So basically do we want a shield against nomads and later Econ or current Econ, balanced against do we want to save Econ or help the HK become a shield against DP.

Going to sleep.
 
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[X] Twythulmyn (Mediocre Martial, Average Econ, Heroic Diplomacy, probable two turn lifespan)
[X] Yes (Consumes Econ, establishes permanent oversea trade route with Metal Workers)
[X] Large increase to local power (Changes government type to Early Ancient Provincial Kingdom, alters action spread, completes prereqs for Scourge Warding early, miscellaneous effects)
 
ctulhuslp said:
[X] Twythulmyn (Mediocre Martial, Average Econ, Heroic Diplomacy, probable two turn lifespan)
[X] Yes (Consumes Econ, establishes permanent oversea trade route with Metal Workers)
[X] Large increase to local power (Changes government type to Early Ancient Provincial Kingdom, alters action spread, completes prereqs for Scourge Warding early, miscellaneous effects)


METAL TOOLS! Copper needles! Copper weapons!
And Metal Miners have smelting. Further proof that we are falling behind on metalworking, which has to be fixed.
Why are people talking about expanding forests (which local chiefs will do on their own) and stuff, when we can and should do a lot of land surveying to discover our own metal sources?

[] [Main] Survey Land
[] [Secondary] Expand Warriors
[] [Secondary] New Trails

Metal is a force multiplier, we have to rush it.
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Because that probably won't happen for 4ish turns? The actions the local chiefs take are pretty random (with some leanings towards certain things). We should get thick ass forests in the north now, before the nomads start raiding our northern settlement again.
 
[X] Twythulmyn (Mediocre Martial, Average Econ, Heroic Diplomacy, probable two turn lifespan)
[X] Yes (Consumes Econ, establishes permanent oversea trade route with Metal Workers)
[X] Large increase to local power (Changes government type to Early Ancient Provincial Kingdom (Elected), alters action spread, completes prereqs for Scourge Warding early, miscellaneous effects)
 
Ok, this looks pretty unanimous

Vote Tally : Paths of Civilization | Page 571 | Sufficient Velocity
##### NetTally 1.7.4
[X] Yes (Consumes Econ, establishes permanent oversea trade route with Metal Workers)
No. of Votes: 46
[X] Twythulmyn (Mediocre Martial, Average Econ, Heroic Diplomacy, probable two turn lifespan)
No. of Votes: 42
[X] Large increase to local power (Changes government type to Early Ancient Provincial Kingdom (Elected), alters action spread, completes prereqs for Scourge Warding early, miscellaneous effects)
No. of Votes: 42
[X] Standard
No. of Votes: 4
[X] Small increase to local power (Various effects, alters action spread)
No. of Votes: 1
Total No. of Voters: 46
 
hylas240 said:
Because that probably won't happen for 4ish turns? The actions the local chiefs take are pretty random (with some leanings towards certain things). We should get thick ass forests in the north now, before the nomads start raiding our northern settlement again.
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Did you notice that Metal Miners have smelting? We are falling behind on metalworking tech, we have to catch up. We have to start as soon as possible.

Like, on this voting turn people argued that we will do the Trade Mission soon (tm). Now that we randomly acquired trade mission (Brynwyn is the best lol), we have to catch up on metals - and now people are arguing that we should do other things first.
No. There will always be some toootally urgent shit to do, but metalworking is, in larger scope, one of the most important gamechangers, second only to agriculture and on par with writing. Rushing it is probably physically impossible, okay, but falling behind on it - not even having own metal sources when some people smelt lead and silver - is not acceptable.

Like, do you remember any civ that successfully defended via forests? I don't. Because they are all dead. Metalworking is more important in larger scope.

EDIT: Besides, copper tools are generally a good boost towards any and all engineering projects and agriculture, though not nearly as good as bronze. So it will boost everything, while forests may make it harder to raid for nomads.
 
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[X] Twythulmyn (Mediocre Martial, Average Econ, Heroic Diplomacy, probable two turn lifespan)
[X] Yes (Consumes Econ, establishes permanent oversea trade route with Metal Workers)
[X] Large increase to local power (Changes government type to Early Ancient Provincial Kingdom, alters action spread, completes prereqs for Scourge Warding early, miscellaneous effects)
 
I look away from a potentially interesting quest for a few months and it snowballs like crazy... Well, never too late to jump onboard!How did I manage to read five hundred pages in one day...

[X] Twythulmyn (Mediocre Martial, Average Econ, Heroic Diplomacy, probable two turn lifespan)
[X] Yes (Consumes Econ, establishes permanent oversea trade route with Metal Workers)
[X] Large increase to local power (Changes government type to Early Ancient Provincial Kingdom, alters action spread, completes prereqs for Scourge Warding early, miscellaneous effects)
As to justifying this, I see the diplo leader as being necessary for us being able to really get a good first contact with the metal workers. Gaining access to the technology to effectively import, wield, perhaps even mine and work metal will give us a very firm long term regional advantage. A better relation with our already not-killing-us Northern neighbors will also permit us to focus on our main theatre of action- the Southern Plains. Our enemy is gaining strength, but remains a distant threat. The only other regional power is imploding. This is an opportunity if ever there was one. We can secure the good favor of the Plains Kingdom by gaining military strength and smashing the Dead Priests once and for all and taking over their lands. This would result in us having a far more sprawling polity than before and makes the provincial system necessary, just that way we no longer have to get caught up in local bureaucracy as much anymore.

In the long sense, I'd like to see us shore up our Northern border, stabilize internally, contact and trade with the Metal Workers, either render irrelevant or assimilate the Plains Kingdom and conquer the Dead Priests.

Also, can someone try updating the map? Maybe include our current areas and names of settlement for reference?
 
ctulhuslp said:
Did you notice that Metal Miners have smelting? We are falling behind on metalworking tech, we have to catch up. We have to start as soon as possible.

Like, on this voting turn people argued that we will do the Trade Mission soon (tm). Now that we randomly acquired trade mission (Brynwyn is the best lol), we have to catch up on metals - and now people are arguing that we should do other things first.
No. There will always be some toootally urgent shit to do, but metalworking is, in larger scope, one of the most important gamechangers, second only to agriculture and on par with writing. Rushing it is probably physically impossible, okay, but falling behind on it - not even having own metal sources when some people smelt lead and silver - is not acceptable.

Like, do you remember any civ that successfully defended via forests? I don't. Because they are all dead. Metalworking is more important in larger scope.

EDIT: Besides, copper tools are generally a good boost towards any and all engineering projects and agriculture, though not nearly as good as bronze. So it will boost everything, while forests may make it harder to raid for nomads.
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Did you notice that the deal with the TH was only for 1-2 turns?

We're establishing a permanent trade mission with the metal workers....we'll be fine in the short term by sheer exposure to their methods (our traders already saw their wood working IIRC).

If we don't have a thick forest in between our northern settlement and the nomads, we're gonna be locked into a war mission just to keep them off us...again.

Not to mention the econ we'll gain from it (which we sorely need).
 
hylas240 said:
Did you notice that the deal with the TH was only for 1-2 turns?

We're establishing a permanent trade mission with the metal workers....we'll be fine in the short term by sheer exposure to their methods (our traders already saw their wood working IIRC).

If we don't have a thick forest in between our northern settlement and the nomads, we're gonna be locked into a war mission just to keep them off us...again.

Not to mention the econ we'll gain from it (which we sorely need).
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To gain Econ, we need stability, because LoO.
Case in point:
Academia Nut said:
Many people from the scattered remnants of the Western Confederacy who could were creeping further north, and already there were people starting to till fields at the camp where the People watched the lowlands from the badlands at the end of the cataract, not quite ready to come to the People for aid, but definitely trying to get as far away from their neighbours as possible. The Chiefs were asking for more responsibilities and necessary rights to be able to better respond to all of the problems they encountered.
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We are going to get another shot at LoO boost really soon, next turn or one after next it looks like.
So if you want econ boost, rather do:
[] [Main] Restore Harmony

EDIT: Besides, as history shows, best way to win against stone-weapons wielding enemy is not forests, but metal weaponry. And metal tools to do engineering and agriculture more efficiently.
 
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ctulhuslp said:
To gain Econ, we need stability, because LoO.
Case in point:


We are going to get another shot at LoO boost really soon, next turn or one after next it looks like.
So if you want econ boost, rather do:
[] [Main] Restore Harmony

And move on from here.
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You're banking entirely on a LoO trigger? What happened to you wanting to rush copper tools last post?

Also, expanding forest north means the nomads aren't nearly as problematic as they've been in the previous turns (it's not just about econ, that's a bonus).
 
hylas240 said:
You're banking entirely on a LoO trigger? What happened to you wanting to rush copper tools last post?

Also, expanding forest north means the nomads aren't nearly as problematic as they've been in the previous turns (it's not just about econ, that's a bonus).
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Nomads are still going to be problematic, because the current chain of attacks began with them attacking settlements of fishers to our North-West, who are not affiliated with us, IIRC, so forests would not help protect against them.

And my desire to get own sources of metal is still there:
[] [Main] Restore Harmony
[] [Secondary] Survey Land
[] [Secondary] Expand Warriors

And yes, I am banking on LoO trigger because the last update explicitly mentioned a number of people who want to move in to us from the lowlands.

Andres110 said:
None of these actions make use of Twythulmyn's Heroic Diplomacy, even though that's who you're voting for.
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Fair enough, although background perma-dealing with Metal Miners most likely counts for using him.

[] [Main] Restore Harmony
[] [Secondary] Survey Land
[] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Highlands Kingdom or Nomads

Something like this.
 
Looking back I saw this:
Academia Nut said:
Study Health - High Chief Hewthyun responded quite well to the methods the shamans applied, perhaps more widespread application of these methods might have additional benefits?
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So after we raise our centralization and mysticism, I think it might be a good idea to research how we managed to combat senility in our High Chief. Because I think this route might be a good way to maximize the usefulness of our hero units and delay the degradation of their abilities as they age.
 
ctulhuslp said:
Nomads are still going to be problematic, because the current chain of attacks began with them attacking settlements of fishers to our North-West, who are not affiliated with us, IIRC, so forests would not help protect against them.

And my desire to get own sources of metal is still there:
[] [Main] Restore Harmony
[] [Secondary] Survey Land
[] [Secondary] Expand Warriors

And yes, I am banking on LoO trigger because the last update explicitly mentioned a number of people who want to move in to us from the lowlands.



Fair enough, although background perma-dealing with Metal Miners most likely counts for using him.

[] [Main] Restore Harmony
[] [Secondary] Survey Land
[] [Secondary] Trade Mission - Highlands Kingdom or Nomads

Something like this.
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Nope, they raided our walled northern settlements. While they couldn't get through the walls, they stole the people they could get their hands on (read: the people who were out in the open as opposed to in forests or walls) as well as cattle. The war mission specifically was for maintaining our defensive perimeter and occasional counter raids.

I don't think the northern fishing villages being raided affect us besides losing a trading partner (though they probably got gobbled up by our new coastal settlement).
 
hylas240 said:
Nope, they raided our walled northern settlements. While they couldn't get through the walls, they stole the people they could get their hands on (read: the people who were out in the open as opposed to in forests or walls) as well as cattle. The war mission specifically was for maintaining our defensive perimeter and occasional counter raids.

I don't think the northern fishing villages being raided affect us besides losing a trading partner (though they probably got gobbled up by our new coastal settlement).
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Hm.

Academia Nut said:
Unfortunately, these fishing villages were past the hills that formed the protective bulwark against the nomads to the north, and thus suffered under endemic raids, that suddenly got significantly worse once the People started trading with them, followed by their northern settlements seeing a major uptick in attacks. It seemed that the stories of the wealth of the People hidden away deep in their valleys and demonstrated by their trade caravans had been made apparent to the greedier nomad tribes, who had decided to steal from trading partners and begin attempts to crack the shell of northern settlements and defenses. Thus far they had not got far, but just dealing with them would tie up large numbers of warriors, and they might need to be taught a lesson in order to back off.
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Okay, it seems I stand corrected. It was started by nomads attacking unaffiliated fishers, and then translated into attacking specifically us.
I still think we need metal tools and to prepare for the next LoO trigger, which is going to be soon.
 
ctulhuslp said:
Hm.



Okay, it seems I stand corrected. It was started by nomads attacking unaffiliated fishers, and then translated into attacking specifically us.
I still think we need metal tools and to prepare for the next LoO trigger, which is going to be soon.
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Perhaps [Main] restoration of harmony, expand forests north, and maybe survey lands?

Next turn will have to be new trails and walling our southern settlement. While the low centralization can hold for 1 more turn, it should be done asap...same reason for the walls.
 
hylas240 said:
Perhaps [Main] restoration of harmony, expand forests north, and maybe survey lands?

Next turn will have to be new trails and walling our southern settlement. While the low centralization can hold for 1 more turn, it should be done asap...same reason for the walls.
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Yes, this sounds fine. Although it depends on turn results, it may well be the case that we have to bumrush Centralization aka New Trails.
 
If the local chiefs get more power, would they setup more settlements even if it reduces their power? (Duu to more competition and lower population)

Do we have means to keep the local chiefs from bloating in size & number and from demanding more power?

I can only hope we maintain tight control over warriors.
 
[] [Main] Trade Mission - Highlands Kingdom or Nomads
[] [Secondary] New Settlement - blue stone quarry / More Blackbirds
[] [Secondary] New Trails

This is my Preference for the next vote
 
Killer_Whale said:
[] [Main] Trade Mission - Highlands Kingdom or Nomads
[] [Secondary] New Settlement - blue stone quarry / More Blackbirds
[] [Secondary] New Trails

This is my Preference for the next vote
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> sees lack of looking for metal
Uh..
> sees lack of Restore Harmony while there are more refugees incoming
Now that's just weird. Priorities are one thing, but LoO was a lifesaver several times already.
 
[X] Twythulmyn (Mediocre Martial, Average Econ, Heroic Diplomacy, probable two turn lifespan)
[X] Yes (Consumes Econ, establishes permanent oversea trade route with Metal Workers)
[X] Large increase to local power (Changes government type to Early Ancient Provincial Kingdom, alters action spread, completes prereqs for Scourge Warding early, miscellaneous effects)

Maybe we can take a turn that is devoted to military expansion. To have good balance of toops, we should take two or more expand actions of different types. Which one we main depends on what our focus would be. If we want to be aggressive, then the war carts or warriors would be main. If its defence we want to focus on, then its walls and blackbirds/warriors or maybe we could get a sacred warrior specialized in defending walled settlements or something
 
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