- Location
- France
Causing sealing failures in the enemy base while we are a mile away ? Sounds great !
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rational rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
- Location
- [REDACTED]
Okay, so I've done the math. We can leverage several thousand more CP out of natural chakra regeneration merely by staggering shadow clones and summons. This doesn't even require complicated chakra juggling. Just summoning Hazo's shadow clones w/ 5k+ CP distributed out amongst them 12-11 hours before the assault will allow us to get 5k CP back easy.
We should have access to about 800 CP regenerating naturally per hour. That means we can summon up to 2400 CP worth of summons before the cost of maintaining the summons outweighs our chakra regen rate.
As just a sample load out, this staggering could be used to support 5x Strength of 100 Tsunades, 8x Orchimaru, all 5 bosses, Ma and Pa, 2x Mari, 3x Kurenai, and 8x Jonin summons. That's without even inflecting Severe consequences on all the Moon nin.
(forgive me for not posting a google drive link but I don't have a burner gmail).
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Wouldn't that many clone-hours explode Hazou's brain?
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- Location
- [REDACTED]
Oh, well you see that's the part I'm too stupid to understand. TBF we can risk Severe mental consequences now more than any other time. That probably still fucks my math lmfao. Welp!
yup, we'd be rolling at 72(resolve + 3*(SC AB -2)) vs TN 128 (20 + (12 hours * 9 clones))
that's about 18 shifts of mental stress, exploding Hazou's weird little brain.
Maybe it's possible with Sanin clones? they can store 600 CP, and we know they can do 20 clone-hours each, so that's 15 spare clone-hours per sanin.
EDIT: OtOH, they probably don't want to be pushing to the limit on clone hours they can handle, because if they have a genjutsu/sharingan consequence when an SC pops, that could turn the clone shock from "fine" to "crippling, possibly lethal".
not worth the risk.
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- Location
- [REDACTED]
Damn, well even if he has 4 clones that at least lets us squirrel away another 1600 CP or so. We could also use Kei as a chakra capacitor, but that does bring us back to annoying Chakra juggling.
Still, we can get tremendous gains by simply calling Jonin summons early. We can afford 8 jonin summons before we're in danger of having maintenance costs exceed regen. If the summons are staggered right, then that will have far less of an impact on our zero-hour budget than if those same 8 jonin had been summoned 30 minutes before the battle.
EX: 4 summoned Jonin would cost around 1200 up front w/ 400 CP hourly upkeep. Given the ~800 CP base regen rate, we would be flush with Chakra again in 3 hours while still regening 400 per hour.
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Shrimply have Mari and Kurenai erase clone memories before popping. If Mari cannot find the baller within her, retrocausally have a Yamanaka in the Leaf cheer squad for that purpose. (Pray to jashin that the clones don't all pop prior. Otherwise pray to Ino that a Yamanaka can block the formation of new memories, hence make Shadow Clone into What Tobirama Intended)
Edit: Conversely this means that nerds like Itachi, whose "Naruto canon" abilities include generating a ton of artificial memories, can fry naive Shadow Clone owners through a similar vector unless SC has a defense against overloads, which I doubt. But ultimately you cannot have one without the other.
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Smart, 4 Hazouclones are a good candidate to store chakra in. Kei might be solid to, but you'd be fighting against the startup costs of the jutsu. Can you spreadsheet-math this for us, alongside using 4 Hazouclones and pre-summoned Jounin summons?
It'd be great to have the maths worked out for how to pull as much extra CP as possible for the fight, and append it took the action plan.
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Kei can spend 300 of her 315 CP to make 6 clones, each with 300 CP reserves.
refilling Kei and the Snowflakes will take 2100CP, or 2.6 hours of battlegroup chakra regen.
This nets us a total gain of 1800 CP.
Kei defends against clone shock at a whooping 81, so she can safely keep 6 SC up for 10 hours.
Hazou already needs lots of SC, so we won't include that as a cost.
Hazou defends against clone shock at a 72, so he can safely keep 9 SC up for 6 hours.
refilling 9 clones to 390 is 3510 CP, or 4.3 hours of battlegroup chakra regen.
with the hour-and-change between topping of the last Hazou SC and starting the assault, we could summon ~620 CP of Summons, and pay their upkeep costs, netting us an additional 2 Jounin-level summons
Between Hazou and Snowflake, we can sneak an extra 5300 CP in to the rift assault, plus 2 extra Jounin-summons. there remains some room to optimize harder, but I'm leaving wiggle room, as chakra regen rates are not exactly uniform. This is enough extra CP to give all Tsunade clones Strength-of-a-thousand.
refilling Kei and the Snowflakes will take 2100CP, or 2.6 hours of battlegroup chakra regen.
This nets us a total gain of 1800 CP.
Kei defends against clone shock at a whooping 81, so she can safely keep 6 SC up for 10 hours.
Hazou already needs lots of SC, so we won't include that as a cost.
Hazou defends against clone shock at a 72, so he can safely keep 9 SC up for 6 hours.
refilling 9 clones to 390 is 3510 CP, or 4.3 hours of battlegroup chakra regen.
with the hour-and-change between topping of the last Hazou SC and starting the assault, we could summon ~620 CP of Summons, and pay their upkeep costs, netting us an additional 2 Jounin-level summons
Between Hazou and Snowflake, we can sneak an extra 5300 CP in to the rift assault, plus 2 extra Jounin-summons. there remains some room to optimize harder, but I'm leaving wiggle room, as chakra regen rates are not exactly uniform. This is enough extra CP to give all Tsunade clones Strength-of-a-thousand.
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- Location
- Yes.
@Sir Stompy Just wanted to check and ask if you were intending to make the changes I have suggested above.
- Location
- The Void
- Pronouns
- She/Her
We can probably eeek out some more CP by having Mari, Kurenia and, the other leaf jounin engage in sc shenanigans
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
@Sir Stompy this is a solid idea, and I believe it merits inclusion.Okay, so I've done the math. We can leverage several thousand more CP out of natural chakra regeneration merely by staggering shadow clones and summons. This doesn't even require complicated chakra juggling. Just summoning Hazo's shadow clones w/ 5k+ CP distributed out amongst them 12-11 hours before the assault will allow us to get 5k CP back easy.
We should have access to about 800 CP regenerating naturally per hour. That means we can summon up to 2400 CP worth of summons before the cost of maintaining the summons outweighs our chakra regen rate.
As just a sample load out, this staggering could be used to support 5x Strength of 100 Tsunades, 8x Orchimaru, all 5 bosses, Ma and Pa, 2x Mari, 3x Kurenai, and 8x Jonin summons. That's without even inflecting Severe consequences on all the Moon nin.
(forgive me for not posting a google drive link but I don't have a burner gmail).
We should also ask the Leaf Ninja chakra batteries if they're willing to accept Milds (which heal in a day). The extra chakra might be worth it.
- Location
- United States
Hazō is going to be clone hour limited for the fight.
However, Snowflake, Tsuande, Orochimaru, and Mari are not.
[X] Action Plan: Armageddon Initiative
When are the first ninja radar activated? Before shaping RERs? Before infusing RERs? After infusing RERs?
Do we give radar clones Orochimaru's long distance communication seals?
Do we do anything different based on radar readings?
When are the first ninja radar activated? Before shaping RERs? Before infusing RERs? After infusing RERs?
Do we give radar clones Orochimaru's long distance communication seals?
Do we do anything different based on radar readings?
I'm working on 2.0 version, should be out shortly.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
We never got around to defining it but ponwog75 it's measured in rounds.
Fair point, that's a mistake. Assume they'll be charging forward as you're getting to take the shot, with the intent to arrive a round or so afterwards. I'll change it later.
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
[X] Action Plan: Armageddon Initiative
I'm in favour of making whatever adjustments are possible to the plan but the reality of the situation is that we're largely locked into all of the major decisions. Barring a sudden, brilliant insight, we're looking to shave percentage points, not define the course of the battle.
The only exception is how we handle Superchillers. I personally favour coming clean to the Sannin (and only the Sannin) that we have a rune-of-last-resort which we will deploy if and only if it becomes obvious we have lost the battle as a means of denying the Rift to the Akatsuki. While its area of effect will be contained within the Force Dome, it will not allow us to seize the Rift. We are under orders from the Hokage to discuss no further details and are indeed violating his orders in having discussed this much. (That the Hokage in question is Asuma and not Naruto is immaterial.)
Question: are the Sannin themselves going to be in the Force Dome bubble? Because if so, I'm leery of telling them even that much. 'If this goes badly we're going to kill you' is something we shouldn't even think particularly loudly around Orochimaru.
I'm in favour of making whatever adjustments are possible to the plan but the reality of the situation is that we're largely locked into all of the major decisions. Barring a sudden, brilliant insight, we're looking to shave percentage points, not define the course of the battle.
The only exception is how we handle Superchillers. I personally favour coming clean to the Sannin (and only the Sannin) that we have a rune-of-last-resort which we will deploy if and only if it becomes obvious we have lost the battle as a means of denying the Rift to the Akatsuki. While its area of effect will be contained within the Force Dome, it will not allow us to seize the Rift. We are under orders from the Hokage to discuss no further details and are indeed violating his orders in having discussed this much. (That the Hokage in question is Asuma and not Naruto is immaterial.)
Question: are the Sannin themselves going to be in the Force Dome bubble? Because if so, I'm leery of telling them even that much. 'If this goes badly we're going to kill you' is something we shouldn't even think particularly loudly around Orochimaru.
I'm a bit concerned about an active RER being destroyed by counterattack of some kind, but we're presumably already taking such precautions as are feasible. (Unless we could spare an air dome to keep at the RER position to be activated in case enemies approach or something, but I doubt we can spare the time & chakra )
Can someone be overdrained for a mild without also being drained to 0 CP and unconscious? They currently intend to remain above zero:
...though I would prefer to trade away Leaf's ability to survive a lost battle for increased chance of winning even at fairly harsh rates.
Thanks, that makes a lot more sense.
If I can ask one more question:
Do the Sanin think the battlegroup won't set off the alarm while charging, and that they can follow up the RER explosion by attacking quickly enough that the Akatsuki won't have time to buff or otherwise get on combat footing?
Because I'm still struggling to see why they want to charge a sasori-reinforced position, rather than exploiting RER for free kills and wearing down the Akatsuki chakra reserves before the fight.
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This seems familiar.
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With that said,
The new problems introduced by your repeated plan with more detail:
1. This plan requires Hazou to actively deceive the Sannin. We've just seen that Hazou sucks at that.
We don't get to snark "it's technically true that the hokage ordered it" when we know we are engaging in deception. If that is somehow insufficient, the paper-thin smoke screen of "... It will not allow us to seize the rift" is another attempt at active deception, because Hazou knows the answer to (and anyone in that conversation can immediately think to ask) "can't we just go in afterwards?" Even if the Sannin take a cognitive vacation, Hazou himself still knows. This plan just adds more and more deception. Are we agreed that we should minimize Hazou's need to roll Deception? If so, perhaps the disagreement lies elsewhere?
2. The consequences are not thought out. Let's go through with them. I will assume that Hazou succeeds in his unlikely deception for ease of analysis, as otherwise we've already failed massively anyway.
First case: The EM nuke is necessary, and is used. The Sannin now know, at least broadly, what it is. Orochimaru's To-do list has now been topped (along with, possibly, stealing the rift) by "why didn't my beloved nephew tell me about this when I specifically asked for such runes?", "the effect is eerily similar to a rather notable recent event", "I wonder if I can make this, and how that'd go".
In any of these cases, Orochimaru connects the dots. Through trial, reasoning, or memory he realizes or sufficiently closely approximates the specifications of the EM Nuke / Superchiller. Some of them can be rather immediate. Regardless, the outcome is the same:
Hazou is dead.
Second case: The rune is not necessary, and we luckily manage to destroy all evidence, somehow. It's great that Orochimaru didn't have to see it in action!
In that case, why tell them and expose yourself to case 1 in the first place? You can only lose.
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Finally the absurdity of "I have an ultimate weapon" <> "why not open with the winning move dearest nephew" is somewhat revealed by the thinness of the fig leaf placed gently over that concern in the repeated plan after the response to the previous.
I share your concerns regarding keeping Superchillers secret effectively in the current plan, and I think it should be executed very carefully with as minimal exposure as possible. As a demonstrative but not necessarily practical example, as minimal as "can we retroactively have a shadow clone start mining as early as possible".
I would sincerely welcome suggestions to minimize our exposure here! Can we brainstorm in that direction?
However, the suggestion that we preempt that failure scenario by telling The Last Man We Want To Know About Superchillers about Superchillers seems like a strategy that can only end in greater expected losses.
If you disagree that Orochimaru (the only other Runesmith as well as an Essie with an extreme combination of paranoia, severe self-induced (?!) psychopathy, and immortality monomania) learning about the capabilities of Superchillers is an overwhelmingly likely lose condition, that is a separate discussion. I assumed you didn't?
For your ease of consideration, here are my assumptions laid out as clearly as possible. Perhaps the error in them will be clearer this way:
1. The proposed plan contains more literal Deception than the current one. (Since Hazou gets rolled by the Sannin here, this is bad.)
2. It is imperative that Orochimaru does not learn about the Superchiller rune, or he will kill Hazou in short order. Ideally he'd never learn, but the relative simplicity of the rune (iirc), his intense focus on runecraft, and The Isan Event lead me to bekieve that this is a ticking timebomb. Thus it behooves us to gain maximal leverage, personal strength, and other support before that happens.
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- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
AFAIK committing to simply Shutting Up gets you around Deceit rolls. "Can't talk about it the Hokage said not to" accomplishes this.
We need to sneak an entire rune into an active combat zone and be able to infuse it. I frankly don't think we're going to be able to manage that without tipping our hand and I don't want to have to lie while all of this is going to hell.
We don't have an ultimate weapon - the fallout really constrains when and where we can use it. In this case, we can only deny the Rift to the Akatsuki, not take it for ourselves. This is a really bad outcome because it effectively ensures Leaf is flattened.
Orochimaru tying us to Isan is bad. But I think trying to sneak a rune past him is unlikely to work and will cast a big shadow over anything that happens after we're discovered. A lot of things need to go right for us to be able to deploy the Superchiller. We need to hang onto the chakra, we need to have a clone with access to a blank for the required ten minutes, all sorts of stuff. The issue with those problems is that we aren't going to have time to explain after RERs start firing and Orochimaru or Tsunade might decide by fiat that no, we are not allowed to activate an unknown rune while everything is going to hell around us.
I'm frankly not that concerned with providing Orochimaru with an idea for a city- or even country-killer. They're trivial to produce with runes - see, the lightning rune. If he wanted one, he would make one. We get a lot of bang for our buck with Superchillers but I don't think knowing about this specific attack vector makes him a greater threat to the world at large. To us, certainly, but that's a distinct matter.
To summarize: I'm a lot more concerned about the prospect of sneaking an extra rune into the battlefield while also maintaining the ability to infuse it. I'm pretty sure that Tsunade will help keep Orochimaru in line ('he says he has orders from the Hokage, stop trying to coerce him') for the duration that matters, and we have a mountain of problems to solve after we win - adding 'Orochimaru is pressing us for details of a rune' feels incremental to me.
I'm also not really sure what you're getting at here - it isn't unusual to post the same idea more than once. I'm specifically mentioning it again while voting because that tends to communicate more directly with the planmaker.
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I understand. As a minor correction, the point I attempted to make with the shorthand "reason through outcomes" section was that the Coming Clean strategy merely jumps ahead to one of our worse case scenarios, in this case the "So what's that rune?" immediate or postponed Deceit hell (simplifying). That is why leapfrogging any other strategy to minimize exposure, which I hope is clearly not equivalent to shutting up, in lieu of trying to Deceit our way through exposure is unwise.
That being said, while I understand your objections there remain multiple problems with the coming clean plan from my perspective, which I noted in my prior messages. And I don't think the reasoning against them in the latest message, e.g. the hokage point, is sufficiently effective. Finally some others arose from the latest response, but they are less fundamental (e.g. I think you may be making too many worst case assumptions with regards to what the forward-deployment Hazouclones will be doing, where they'll be, and where the closest Orochimaru clone will be, we seem to be disagreeing on how the Superchiller rune works and what its post completion effects will be, etc. For the sake of argument we can assume you are correct about all the new issues, but the old ones largely remain untouched - Deceiving someone multiple times and then shutting up being equal to not deceiving them? Uh.).
I am in favor of the motivation but not the implementation.
In addition, if you have other ideas for navigating the Superchiller deployment for greater expected success, I at least would be happy to hear them. Like I said previously, I share the concern albeit apparently with different assumptions. A wider variety of ideas with less effort devoted to each of them maybe, I don't know.
Effortposts can too easily engender a sunk cost situation. (He said, ironically)
Edit/Update: The current plan is for forward deployment Hazouclones to carry their runes, most notably SC, in storage seals. They are already shaped + stored (or at least SC is), so even that bit if exposure is secured. So my worries regarding SC transportation and deployment are assuaged.
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Implemented
Do you want to skip the Force Dome? Our options regarding the Force Dome are
1) Infuse it underground
2) Infuse it above ground
I think it's vastly less likely Sasori has anti-Collapse countermeasures out to the km distance from the Rift, than Hazou gets picked up by a patrol trying to do this above ground.
The Hazouclones are explicitly not sneaking off, the placement of a Foce Dome and the Iron Earth is their job, the Superchiller is a free rider that won't be mentioned.
So there are a few mistakes here. Hazou can't contribute anything in terms of SC hours, but Mari and Kei can.Okay, so I've done the math. We can leverage several thousand more CP out of natural chakra regeneration merely by staggering shadow clones and summons. This doesn't even require complicated chakra juggling. Just summoning Hazo's shadow clones w/ 5k+ CP distributed out amongst them 12-11 hours before the assault will allow us to get 5k CP back easy.
We should have access to about 800 CP regenerating naturally per hour. That means we can summon up to 2400 CP worth of summons before the cost of maintaining the summons outweighs our chakra regen rate.
As just a sample load out, this staggering could be used to support 5x Strength of 100 Tsunades, 8x Orchimaru, all 5 bosses, Ma and Pa, 2x Mari, 3x Kurenai, and 8x Jonin summons. That's without even inflecting Severe consequences on all the Moon nin.
(forgive me for not posting a google drive link but I don't have a burner gmail).
No clones for Hazou, but the rest seems accurate.
This is in the plan and since I suspect most of the Leaf jounin know it I think we have a good shot of capturing most of the regen of the assualt force.
Yes they are and I don't want to say anything about this other than giving the "flee to the Seventh Path signal"
2.0 version of the plan is up.