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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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DragonParadox said:
I'm not sure what you are arguing here? That the concept of rigorous quality control is impossible because it is not perfect? Obviously competitions between runesmiths that also test the runes happen, we have seen them happen on screen, this is what I am proposing here. Vrangi brings his Gontri, we bring ours, they fight winner takes the bragging rights. Sure it's not as good as having the magical ability to summon a combination of all dawi foes from all potential angles and outcomes to fight them, but it's a hell of a lot more fair than 'I Vrangi, your abowed rival say you are a hypocrite Klausson'. We have no reason to take his word for anything.
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Its not about quality control.
Just like the example wasn't about if Snorri could do better than Gromin.

Its about if Snorri could have done better than what he actually did. And so is he living up to his espoused values.

I'm not sure what you're arguing about honestly. Competitions between runesmiths aren't destructive testing, and what the Runelord Conclave were doing was neither . And none of those were not what you were proposing... You were saying Vragni should match what Snorri did or shut up.
 
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[X] Plan: Fires of Inspiration, War and Drakks

I don't like what I'm reading when it comes to the war front. Like seriously, our friends and neighbors are getting hammered, to the point that the Engineering Guild over there is actually being forced, by our enemies, to make some difficult decisions within the guild itself. That..... shouldn't be happening.

So could we clean up our neck of the mountains so that we can get rid of these annoying distractions drawing our attention away from work.
 
Dark as Silver said:
Its not about quality control.
Just like the example wasn't about if Snorri could do better than Gromin.

Its about if Snorri could have done better than what he actually did. And so is he living up to his espoused values.
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It is about quality control, just not between Runesmiths, it is between the different works of the same runesmith. Is one of Axe A more useful than 10 of Axe B is something you can make a good judgement call on. The thing is it would be unreasonable for Vrangi to expect Snori to produce the smaller Gontri in order to prove or disprove his point (those come with expense in time and resources) so he would have to do it himself if he wants to be credibile. Alternatively he can shut up and sit down, that is always an option when one is running one's mouth without proof.
 
DragonParadox said:
It is about quality control, just not between Runesmiths, it is between the different works of the same runesmith. Is one of Axe A more useful than 10 of Axe B is something you can make a good judgement call on. The thing is it would be unreasonable for Vrangi to expect Snori to produce the smaller Gontri in order to prove or disprove his point (those come with expense in time and resources) so he would have to do it himself if he wants to be credibile. Alternatively he can shut up and sit down, that is always an option when one is running one's mouth without proof.
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Dudeeee.... I keep repeating myself:
Dark as Silver said:
Snorri has to trust and take on faith that a dwarf who responds to him is talking in good faith.

It's not about hard proof, its about Snorri's philosophy.
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Dark as Silver said:
Because hard evidence wasn't needed.
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In this hypothetical hypocrisy argument, nobody is saying that Snorri needs to produce two cheaper Gronti's in order to compare them...
Just like nobody would demand Vragni to produce his own to prove it.
 
Dark as Silver said:
Dudeeee.... I keep repeating myself:



In this hypothetical hypocrisy argument, nobody is saying that Snorri needs to produce two cheaper Gronti's in order to compare them...
Just like nobody would demand Vragni to produce his own to prove it.
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Then how do you prove he's being a hypocrite? My point is Snori himself does not know if one Dragon Gontri is better than a larger number of smaller ones. Why would be take Vrangi's word for it? Vrangi has even less information than he does and he biased.
 
DragonParadox said:
Then how do you prove he's being a hypocrite? My point is Snori himself does not know if one Dragon Gontri is better than a larger number of smaller ones. Why would be take Vrangi's word for it? Vrangi has even less information than he does and he biased.
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Its not about proving.
Dark as Silver said:
It's not about hard proof, its about Snorri's philosophy.
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Its about reasonable justification. Its about the back and forth pro and con that Tri and I were doing on the other page.
Its about Snorri sticking his chest out and saying why he felt this was the best decision.
The Rune conclave isn't going to take away our runelord card if we fail to meet a certain standard of evidence. Most of them don't even use Snorris standard as a measuring stick.
 
DragonParadox said:
Then how do you prove he's being a hypocrite? My point is Snori himself does not know if one Dragon Gontri is better than a larger number of smaller ones. Why would be take Vrangi's word for it? Vrangi has even less information than he does and he biased.
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The definitive proof comes from not having an opponent that the Giga gronti can kill, but the smaller ones combined can't.

And considering we're talking about Adamant Gronti, that's going to be a difficult thing to find.

So then it becomes a question of, what can't the Giga gronti do, that the smaller ones can.

Which is a much easier thing to prove.
 
Dark as Silver said:
Its not about proving.

Its about reasonable justification. Its about the back and forth pro and con that Tri and I were doing on the other page.
Its about Snorri sticking his chest out and saying why he felt this was the best decision.
The Rune conclave isn't going to take away our runelord card if we fail to meet a certain standard of evidence. Most of them don't even use Snorris standard as a measuring stick.
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What if Snori does not believe it's reasonable? You still come down to proof. We, the thread can meet such a statement from Vrangi with a snort of disbelief and that is what Snori will think.
 
So, since I've seen it mentioned. Is the Gronti going with Adamant Skin/Bones or Full Adamant?

The conversation on that has bounced back and forth a few times, I don't know what it landed on in the end.
 
DragonParadox said:
What if Snori does not believe it's reasonable? You still come down to proof. We, the thread can meet such a statement from Vrangi with a snort of disbelief and that is what Snori will think.
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????
If Snorri does still think its reasonable. Then thats the end of it mostly.
And if most runesmiths hear this and agree with Snorri, then thats basically defeated Vragni's argument.
And if most runesmiths hear this and don't agree? then its a small smudge most affecting people who most agree with us or already dislike us because most runesmiths don't use this standard of measurement.

What are you expecting? Some calamateous beard shaving bad end???? I wouldn't expect that even if Snorri decides it wasn't reasonable.
Yeah if the thread brushes it off then thats it. WHAT DO YOU WANT!?!?!
 
Dark as Silver said:
????
If Snorri does still think its reasonable. Then thats the end of it mostly.
And if most runesmiths hear this and agree with Snorri, then thats basically defeated Vragni's argument.
And if most runesmiths hear this and don't agree? then its a small smudge most affecting people who most agree with us or already dislike us because most runesmiths don't use this standard of measurement.

What are you expecting? Some calamateous beard shaving bad end???? I wouldn't expect that even if Snorri decides it wasn't reasonable.
Yeah if the thread brushes it off then thats it. WHAT DO YOU WANT!?!?!
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I think you kind of missed the point. Snori has no reason to be the least charitable to an avowed rival, much less to accept a pretty insulting argument. The baseline answer is whatever the barely polite version of 'fuck you, prove it' is. That is where the entire conversation on how to prove it comes from. Sorry for not making that clear from the start, I just thought it was understood that we would have no reason to take Vrangi's word on anything to do with Snori's own character, since that mostly constitutes a tirade of insults on a good day.
 
BungieONI said:
Full Adamant, aiming to achieve effective invulnerability.
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"Close enough" invulnerability was acheived with Pure Gromril.
Plated Adamant was effective invulnerability.
TotallyNotEvil said:
5) How does a 4 meter adamant plated pure gromril gronti compare to a 10 meter pure gromril gronti?
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soulcake said:
5. You can think of stuff that could destroy the latter, but not the former.
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I don't think anyone ever bothered to ask soulcake for what pure Adamant would be because every seemed to generally agree that the only things that could destroy Plated were the things that got around actually having to destroy it like yeeting it into the Aethyr which full would be similarly vulnerable to.
DragonParadox said:
I think you kind of missed the point. Snori has no reason to be the least charitable to an avowed rival, much less to accept a pretty insulting argument. The baseline answer is whatever the barely polite version of 'fuck you, prove it' is. That is where the entire conversation on how to prove it comes from. Sorry for not making that clear from the start, I just thought it was understood that we would have no reason to take Vrangi's word on anything to do with Snori's own character, since that mostly constitutes a tirade of insults on a good day.
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I think you're making up points to be had? Its a perfectly reasonable argument for Vragni who really dislikes Snorri and think Snorri's grand designs are gradually driving people away to make from an IC reason... Why does that mean that Snorri has to be charitable to it?
Now I think Snorri should consider it in good faith, because I think Snorri should be able to evaluate his own philosophy and find that his actions are in line with it. That doesn't mean Snorri has to agree with Vragni, just because he considered it.
 
DragonParadox said:
I think you kind of missed the point. Snori has no reason to be the least charitable to an avowed rival, much less to accept a pretty insulting argument. The baseline answer is whatever the barely polite version of 'fuck you, prove it' is. That is where the entire conversation on how to prove it comes from. Sorry for not making that clear from the start, I just thought it was understood that we would have no reason to take Vrangi's word on anything to do with Snori's own character, since that mostly constitutes a tirade of insults on a good day.
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A situation where 1 Giga gronti is more useful than 2 Very good Gronti made at the same expense is much harder to engineer than the reverse.

And in most cases, those 2 Gronti are more than enough.
 
Dark as Silver said:
I think you're making up points to be had? Its a perfectly reasonable argument for Vragni who really dislikes Snorri and think Snorri's grand designs are gradually driving people away to make from an IC reason... Why does that mean that Snorri has to be charitable to it?
Now I think Snorri should consider it in good faith, because I think Snorri should be able to evaluate his own philosophy and find that his actions are in line with it. That doesn't mean Snorri has to agree with Vragni, just because he considered it.
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It may indeed seem perfectly reasonable to you and to be honest from this side of the screen I will agree that it is to me as well. Snori is not you and he is not be either, nor for that matter is he a saint. His previous correspondence with Vrangi has been peppered with insults by the latter aimed towards himself, to which he answered in kind, and this would be one more. Moreover Snori is a dwarf, a people renowned for stubbornness which grow more so with age. I would say that it is vanishingly unlikely he will consider it in good faith unless the thread decides to make it a vote (assuming it is even offered).
 
full adamant since we got a runelord working on breaking adamant, or we wait and make it full glimril to one up hammer runelord :V
 
DragonParadox said:
It may indeed seem perfectly reasonable to you and to be honest from this side of the screen I will agree that it is to me as well. Snori is not you and he is not be either, nor for that matter is he a saint. His previous correspondence with Vrangi has been peppered with insults by the latter aimed towards himself, to which he answered in kind, and this would be one more. Moreover Snori is a dwarf, a people renowned for stubbornness which grow more so with age. I would say that it is vanishingly unlikely he will consider it in good faith unless the thread decides to make it a vote (assuming it is even offered).
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Buddy please stop. Step away and try and read what I said.

Dark as Silver said:
If Snorri does still think its reasonable. Then thats the end of it mostly.
And if most runesmiths hear this and agree with Snorri, then thats basically defeated Vragni's argument.
And if most runesmiths hear this and don't agree? then its a small smudge most affecting people who most agree with us or already dislike us because most runesmiths don't use this standard of measurement.
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I've not argued that Snorri would be forced to take a response to this argument. Although I have stated my personal opinion on the matter.

What do you actually think we're talking about? This whole thing started because Aliya said that they'd like it if Vragni called Snorri a hypocrite over it while saying they liked the Gronti. That's not a condemnation thats asking for a plot point they think would be narratively engaging.
 
Dark as Silver said:
I've not argued that Snorri would be forced to take a response to this argument. Although I have stated my personal opinion on the matter.

What do you actually think we're talking about? This whole thing started because Aliya said that they'd like it if Vragni called Snorri a hypocrite over it while saying they liked the Gronti. That's not a condemnation thats asking for a plot point they think would be narratively engaging.
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Ah... I think this is a tone on the internet thing. I'm not emotionally engaged in this or anything, just trying to explain an argument that started with a funny post (at least I hope it was funny :oops: )

My point if I were to unpack it to an almost absurd degree is that the argument for hypocrisy from Vrangi would melt into the stream of background insults that make up their correspondence and maybe get to the point of a challenge, since even Snori does not know if it's right and he would have no reason to take his rival's word for it. Now if some other runelord made the point I could see him listening more carefully

I hope this was thorough enough to get my point across and (paradoxically) that I did not belabor it too much.
 
Rukia said:
Right, Dawi. Not worth doing unless you are going to overdo it.

This thing is going to be the largest concentration of Adamant in the world for centuries. Does anyone know how many decades it's going to take for that number to fall below 50% total?
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No sadly. We don't really know what other people's production rates are. You have prodded me to do the math for our own throughput though.

Pulling up Arch's own Adamant production math from here: RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest) Fantasy - Users' Choice!

At our current production of 10 bars a turn, it'd take about 19 turns to match the dragon. Since we're going to be improving that to a baseline of 22 bars a turn, it'd take 9 turns for our own production to equal 192 bars.

So little under a hundred years, when using our future production capacity. The thing I like about having to build smelters to forge the dragon in reasonable time is that they will continue to exist afterwards, and can be used for making better hearthguard kit or other projects which are much more communalist. Off the top of my head, giving Valayan guild members healing items made of Adamant.

Or when Akazit gets off the ground, adamant reagent producing crucibles and machines. Making healing potions from Adamant magic cauldrons sounds fun.
 
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When all is said and done will the giant robot dragon be a person or an object? Will it become a character in the quest or a prop/tool? Is there anything that can be done to make it more likely to be a character like using more brains for the runes or something in the head?
 
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