Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
A friendly reminder to new questers to read the Informational threadmarks and FAQ specifically before asking a question. Links below:

Frequently Asked Questions
Here is the Detailed Rune List
Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:

I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
Last edited:
Wonder who he's pining after?

I'm guessing, based on nothing in particular, Angra Twenty Loops.

My guess is Snerra. Our Snerra.

Assuming you're all talking about Kazador, one of his companions explicitly names a woman named 'Thungur'. The woman they refer to beforehand is most likely Yvla.

Edit: Ah, I see where I went wrong: please disregard this message.
 
Last edited:
Left is the optimal choice...
But the question is not which runes help you the most.
It is to recognize the falsehood, by trusting in yourself, and your own strengths and weaknesses.

[X] [Courage:] Center
 
Well the key words, Hammer, Truth, Falsehood, Self...

Hammer -> Truth + Falsehood -> Into Self... maybe Center then.
But Self has 4 characters just like Left...
But Center shows your own Self Knowledge over yourself in both Truth and Falsehood in regards to Courage and Courage alone. So doesn't that fit better?
But Left gives you all the falsehoods to see and the truth of them to see about your self...
Ugh it's either left or center but I think... alright I'll go with this one... so torn between the two.

[x] [Courage:] Center
 
Left is the optimal choice...
But the question is not which runes help you the most.
It is to recognize the falsehood, by trusting in yourself, and your own strengths and weaknesses.
[X] [Courage:] Center

That is easy, the one that gives you the most direct damn answer. The point of information is to be helpful not to be the most helpful to the bestest boys and girls. That kind of reasoning gives you conservative runesmiths making infinite variations of the rune of fire so they can call it something else because it is more artisanal and wise that way
 
That is easy, the one that gives you the most direct damn answer. The point of information is to be helpful not to be the most helpful to the bestest boys and girls.

But left only helps if you don't understand yourself enough to know that whatever spell is effecting you is in fact an effect being put on you. It shows you falsehoods, but doesn't help with understanding yourself. Center doesn't help you recognize falsehoods, but does imply that it's user should be wise enough to see through them regardless.


I think a lot of people are more interested in the fact that left lets you know about unnatural mental effects that you are under, rather than what actually makes sense as a solution to the puzzle. Because the puzzle is not about recognizing falsehoods, it's about being able to overcome an obstacle or adversity.
 
But left only helps if you don't understand yourself enough to know that whatever spell is effecting you is in fact an effect being put on you. It shows you falsehoods, but doesn't help with understanding yourself. Center doesn't help you recognize falsehoods, but does imply that it's user should be wise enough to see through them regardless.


I think a lot of people are more interested in the fact that left lets you know about unnatural mental effects that you are under, rather than what actually makes sense as a solution to the puzzle. Because the puzzle is not about recognizing falsehoods, it's about being able to overcome an obstacle or adversity.
It's not just spells, it's magical effects and items. It's external influence of all kinds.

Center doesn't give you anything but a hammer. Physical enhancements sure make you more likely to survive but we have Runes to handle physical problems.

It's the unknowns that drive Fear that cannot be defeated. Both kinds, the known-unknowns and the unknown-unknowns. To assume that you're always aware or able to detect such is to deny that there are any unknown-unknowns and fill yourself with false confidence.

Ulgu is the primary example of an effect that inherently hides its own presence from detection while effecting the mind. And Ulgu isn't wielded only by wizards, chaos creatures naturally can draw upon it as do anything else touches by the Winds to help themselves hide or be unnoticed. But there is also Aqshy, which can enflame or dim passion and fury.

The reasons for picking left are to enable you to know yourself so you can master your internal fears and what is not-yourself so you can overcome and defeat those external fears.

The center just gives you physical power/prowess, which there are countless Runes that do the same just now with the caveat that it procs with any kind of fear. Both the kind that can be solved by physical force and the kind that can't.

Left is the best response to overcoming Fear, because it drags anything trying to make you afraid into the clear light of day for you to defeat in any way you choose.
 
The reasons for picking left are to enable you to know yourself so you can master your internal fears and what is not-yourself so you can overcome and defeat those external fears.

Left doesn't actually help you understand yourself in any way. It only increases your bravery and lets you become aware that something is having an effect on you.

Case in point:
[The wearer has increased bravery. They become generally aware of spells and items being used to negatively impact their mental state.]

There is nothing here related to understanding. The trial is supposed to be for someone who understands themself and who is already capable of seeing through falsehoods, which Snorri is considering how he acted during the Trial of Concealment. He isn't stupid, he knows when something is trying to mess with his head.

Left is the best response to overcoming Fear, because it drags anything trying to make you afraid into the clear light of day for you to defeat in any way you choose.

It also doesn't do this, either. Again, think about it this way. Left increases bravery, but I'm sure there are runes that also do that even if Snorri does not know about them. Which is better, to know about something causing you to be afraid, or to be able to destroy that thing in spite of your fear?

That is the difference between Left and Center. Left makes you more brave and lets you know something is messing with your head, which anyone with enough experience and knowledge of themself can figure out regardless. Center makes you strong enough to fight that thing regardless, which is very much in character for the dawi as a whole.
 
Last edited:
But left only helps if you don't understand yourself enough to know that whatever spell is effecting you is in fact an effect being put on you. It shows you falsehoods, but doesn't help with understanding yourself. Center doesn't help you recognize falsehoods, but does imply that it's user should be wise enough to see through them regardless.


I think a lot of people are more interested in the fact that left lets you know about unnatural mental effects that you are under, rather than what actually makes sense as a solution to the puzzle. Because the puzzle is not about recognizing falsehoods, it's about being able to overcome an obstacle or adversity.
So this is assuming that these tests are organized by the Resist, Overcome, Endure phrasing. That this is the Overcome test.

The idea that its Resist, Overcome, Endure, is convenient, but it also leads to exactly what you're saying here, where you take a test that says

To know Truth is to spurn Falsehood.

To spurn Falsehood is to know Falsehood.


And say its not about recognizing falsehood is kinda off. On some level, what you're saying here, has locked onto a specific interpretation of these three tests' structure and is ignoring the test text right in front of us.

Which is not how Thungni operates, directly from what Snorri has said when he realized they were going in circles with Karstah before they set out.

Resist. Overcome. Endure.

What Rune best embodied that? Was it even referring to just one Rune? Perhaps it was both and several other explanations before it.

It feels like an age before you come to a decision.

You tentatively reach for the leftmost ingot and pull it from its resting spot.

"Those born from Stone," could only mean the Dawi of course, and of the three Runes, you reckon that it was the most accurate. Your folk did not need the Stone to endure, for all that it did help, nor did you believe you were all so limited, metaphorically speaking, as the other Rune. Perhaps there was just a smidge of bias leaking through, but the Dawi only grew more mighty with age, wiser with every battle, and like the metal you shaped, hardened after every blow endured.
Also we have this statement about endurance from Snorri here, which I think throws the idea that there's a predictable Resist, Overcome, Endure order here into confusion. Its worth noting here that the rune we picked in Warding could have been used for all three concepts, as well.



Let's go over it again for everybody's sake. Why are we here? To earn the Hammer, which also implies us earning being Thungni's Heir or close to it, based on Snorri's own recent musings. The two plaques, the prior tests, and that statement, imply that Durin either knew this combo already or could have figured it out.

What are we being asked to do? Build the Combo, Dawi, using three runes, each one picked from a specific test. That immediately places some constraints on us.

It has to have a theme, a high concept, that can represent the Dawi as they are (at the very least). That means the themes of each Rune have to contribute to that high concept in some way. Left, Center, and Right all have imagery and themes that can work with this; Snorri performed Left when he caught what was happening to him and then reinforced his own will. He then went and rallied his retainers, which is similar to what Right does, and the "Get stronger in the face of fear" is an image many many dawi have done. All three could work thematically, but there's significant debate to be had over which is the best theme, I believe.

However.

We need a Combo that has both mental and physical effects because Dawi are not purely their physical stats, muscles, or suchlike. This immediately disqualifies Center, in my assessment, because its purely physical in what it does to the user, even if it reads the user's mental state to determine when to activate. We may be able to correct that in our choice of Stone variations, but why assume a Stone variant will have mental effects when its basically physical through and through, right?

We are also constrained by our previous pick - we need runes whose effects align with the Effect of Worldly Warding. Fortunately, all of these should play well with Worldly Warding. However, when we go into Stone, we will be restricted by the pair of runes we've picked so far a lot more than we are now.

Why are we being asked to do this? Because as Snorri and others have mused, taking up the Hammer means taking up Durin's place - being able to carry forward his work and have a mindset Thungni considers worthy. That does not mean a mindset exactly *like* Durin's, only that Thungni would consider the challenger worthy to wield the Hammer.


Lets evaluate what the tests have said to us in their full texts so far.

To claim the Hammer is to claim the seat of one Lost.
To claim the seat of one Lost is to claim Understanding.
To claim Understanding is to understand the Stone and those born from it.
To understand the Stone and those born from it, is to know thus:
Resist.
Overcome.
Endure.

To claim the Hammer is to know Truth.
To know Truth is to spurn Falsehood.
To spurn Falsehood is to know Falsehood.
To know Falsehood is to understand the Self.
Resist.
Overcome.
Endure.


To claim the Hammer, the challenger needs to understand Stone and those born from it, to know Resist, Overcome, Endure. To claim the hammer, the challenger must understand the Self. And to claim the Hammer, the challenger must know/have/be a third thing we don't know yet and will hear about in the Stone test (presumably).

So thematically, with a Rune that helps you endure and be honed through experience and age, to resist harm and overcome danger through those things, we're left with a choice. Do we want to add an image of; a person who becomes stronger when they become afraid and are faced with adversity, or a person who can share their bravery and lead themself and others into fearlessness, or a person who is brave and clear enough of mind to spot unnatural sources, to that idea?

All of these have to do with Overcoming or Enduring or Resisting, much like the first test.

Right or Left work well I think when taken in this thematic lens.
 
Last edited:
Back
Top