[X] Training Plan: Disciple of the Beyond

EDIT: Can't we just send word back that we'll be back in like...2 weeks? Then just research some stuff and use skywalkers to make it back in like a day or 2?
 
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Edit: itachi might use genjutsu if no one, including hazou, could detect it. If we are worried about that hazou can just talk to him with hazo's eyes closed
IIRC Orochimaru says that Itachi doesn't need to look at you to cast genjutsu (reminds me of Tom Riddle's legilimency).

Nah, let's get Ami back into the story if we can, she was one of the best characters to have onscreen and she was incredibly competent.
Yup. That's what I'm hoping for. (Ami is my favorite character TBH.)

Naruto's plan to "make Akatsuki run on a wild goose chase" doesn't make any sense. Itachi's in Leaf requesting Hazo to return to Leaf. If Hazo doesn't return his call, Itachi knows Naruto's lying to him. Itachi can in response grab Hazo's friends, lean on Leaf, kill a bunch of civilians to make a point of what happens when you break your word, etc. He has no reason to go on a wild goose chase with Naruto, someone who he knows just lied to him. Frankly why would Itachi even personally be the one to hunt Hazo? If/When Hazo is deemed MIA, Itachi's clone calls in an Akatsuki tracker gang and tells them to go wild. Why would Akatsuki be going on a trip with Naruto?
The idea is that Naruto "thinks" that Hazō will respond, and then is "shocked" when he goes missing.

But all of Leaf. Remember. Even if we can somehow plan around Itachi's cheating eyeball, bullshit senses, (doubtful, but who knows) and he makes a huge mistake (somehow) we also have to leave without a single member of Hyuga noticing (who have nightly patrols) and also envade leaf's dog clan (I forgot the name).
Skywalk straight up a couple miles and then just walk out. As long as Itachi or a Hyūga isn't right on top of us we should be fine. In terms of tracking after we leave, we can just build a bunch of skywalkers up really high.

We have glider technology.
Do we have it, or do our civilians in Leaf have it?

Also:
[x] Interlude: Kamehameha Conversation
[x] Interlude
[x] Lore Update

I'm not sure we should get DoB before researching Army of One. I'd like to hear arguments to the contrary.

Edit:
I pity said deity, for it is fucked.
Not if said deity is a deity of chaos. ^_^
 
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@faflec and others.
Given Itachi's stolen Conjura-spacetime-jutsu, a Force Dome based defence now requires three runes, Force Dome, Iron Earth, and "Don't Mess With Spacetime".

I suggest looking into an "explosions don't work" rune instead, as it's only one research track, it also prevents Hidan's suicide explosion, and it lets Leaf engage/return fire at Deidara, instead of huddling inside a dome.

Proposed name: Kagome's tears.
 
@faflec and others.
Given Itachi's stolen Conjura-spacetime-jutsu, a Force Dome based defence now requires three runes, Force Dome, Iron Earth, and "Don't Mess With Spacetime".

I suggest looking into an "explosions don't work" rune instead, as it's only one research track, it also prevents Hidan's suicide explosion, and it lets Leaf engage/return fire at Deidara, instead of huddling inside a dome.

Proposed name: Kagome's tears.

Oh wow, "X doesn't work" runes in that direction are fair game?
Okay, "Oxidation|Combustion doesn't work" will kill everyone in its area because their cells can no longer utilize ATP. GG. (And that's either equivalent or close enough to "no explosions", unless it works via some temperature-like ceiling)

Edit: To be clear, I have no illusions that this would work, like at all. This feels like the kind of solution that just would not fly. Alternative pipe dreams include "indiscriminate conductivity modification" in an area to make the nervous system instantly collapse, and subsequently create S-rank vegetables, but those'd face the same issue.
 
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Try to convince him to betray Akatuski and join us. Because that would be hilarious, but also because we can't trust the fate of the world with anybody who thinks the likes of Hidan is a cool guy.

"Scattered within your mad ranting were a handful of points I may well have needed to hear. Nearly drowned out by the volume of the rest, perhaps, but not entirely silenced. Had I killed you as I originally intended, I would have missed out…

"You have reached the stage of imposing your ideals on reality without first passing the necessary trials or learning the necessary lessons, and you will need the Hivemind's guidance before you commit some truly irreversible error that forces us to act."


assume you mean the time rune?
Runes in general

I was under the impression that the dome could withstand sustained assault by (some?) of the Akatsuki (maybe we were discussing SC?).
We think Force Dome might, once we research it. Air Dome which we've already researched won't.

Oh wow, "X doesn't work" runes in that direction are fair game?
Don't know - haven't run prep days.

I suggest looking into an "explosions don't work" rune instead, as it's only one research track, it also prevents Hidan's suicide explosion, and it lets Leaf engage/return fire at Deidara, instead of huddling inside a dome.
I don't think this is a good idea... while spacetime jutsu means that one Akatsuki member has a known way to bypass force domes, every Akatsuki member other than Deidara has known ways to cause devastation without explosions. Mostly not on the same scale Deidara or Konan can with explosions, admittedly, but a regular old massacre is enough of a threat.
 
Don't know - haven't run prep days.

Thank you.
Actually, while it was initially a one-off idea since "obviously their internals won't be affected by it", the conductivity limit rune has significant promise: We have a counterfactual where the time rune evidently influences everything in its sphere, including 'internals'. And since lightning is its whole-ass element with subsequent jutsu and seals (and ninja wire exists), conductivity is not an alien concept for Hazou like Gamma rays are (my poor turbo death laser...). He could even connect the two already, since the effects of lightning on dead or alive bodies should be evident to him.

Subsequently, if we create a rune that limits the electrical conductivity of everything in its area of effect to a low enough threshold, it will instantly kill every Akatsuki member in there by way of preventing all of their nerves from working. S-Ranks don't matter.

Edit:
Name it something related to "Iron Nerve" for maximum irony.

Edit 2:
If we can reduce the AoE of the runes into slices, this also solves Kei's requirements for discriminate WMDs. But that's a luxury, and I'll be just fine with a nice little instant kill area of omni-class death.
 
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I don't think this is a good idea... while spacetime jutsu means that one Akatsuki member has a known way to bypass force domes, every Akatsuki member other than Deidara has known ways to cause devastation without explosions. Mostly not on the same scale Deidara or Konan can with explosions, admittedly, but a regular old massacre is enough of a threat.
The issue with Deidara/Konan is that they can do strategic scale destruction to leaf without directly engaging or risking a fight with Leaf's Essies. Note that Naruto didn't ask for fully general defences, he asked for Deidara and Konan to not destroy Leaf.
Also, we can just plop a few Air Domes down inside the no-explosion rune. Not perfect, but it will head off a lot of other attacks types, or take a ton of Chakra to get through.
 
Status of the current voting cycle.

Adhoc vote count started by RandomOTP on Jul 5, 2024 at 6:55 PM, finished with 181 posts and 17 votes.
 
What if we go to Itachi and truthfully tell him we aren't researching dimensionalism?

Edit: nvm after that he asks us if we are planning on opposing him and we die on the spot.
Oh wow, "X doesn't work" runes in that direction are fair game?
Okay, "Oxidation|Combustion doesn't work" will kill everyone in its area because their cells can no longer utilize ATP. GG. (And that's either equivalent or close enough to "no explosions", unless it works via some temperature-like ceiling)

Edit: To be clear, I have no illusions that this would work, like at all. This feels like the kind of solution that just would not fly. Alternative pipe dreams include "indiscriminate conductivity modification" in an area to make the nervous system instantly collapse, and subsequently create S-rank vegetables, but those'd face the same issue.
Easy balance fix would be making it only work on open air and things not containing chakra. Similar to storage seal rules where seals and people can't be sealed. So ninja wouldn't instantly die but it still prevents explosions from propagating through the air. (Do explosive seals actually combust using oxygen in the air? If they just create an explosion then an explosion prohibition rune might not work anyways.)

If so an alternative solution might be a shockwave dampening rune that slows or stops shockwaves from propagating through the air like how sound waves travel. And sound dampening is a seal tree we already have researched.
 
What if we go to Itachi and truthfully tell him we aren't researching dimensionalism?

Edit: nvm after that he asks us if we are planning on opposing him and we die on the spot.

Easy balance fix would be making it only work on open air and things not containing chakra. Similar to storage seal rules where seals and people can't be sealed. So ninja wouldn't instantly die but it still prevents explosions from propagating through the air. (Do explosive seals actually combust using oxygen in the air? If they just create an explosion then an explosion prohibition rune might not work anyways.)

If so an alternative solution might be a shockwave dampening rune that slows or stops shockwaves from propagating through the air like how sound waves travel. And sound dampening is a seal tree we already have researched.

Actually, on further reflection as I wrote above, my pessimism wasn't exactly warranted in this case. So while I don't see any problems with your amended versions, they might not even be necessary. We already have at least one rune that indiscriminately affects everything in its AoE regardless of chakra: The time rune. Correct me if I'm wrong, of course.

That's why I suggested the anti-conductivity rune. That would kill every living thing in its AoE because nerves. And Hazou can know to make it without any meta funny business (that plagued many a cool rune) because... eh, as described above.
 
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QMs, get ready for a simulationism nightmare.
I actually have a stop I'd like to make before we head East. The chakra water pool in Wind is extremely useful for our mission. We're concerned with sourcing chakra outside of Leaf. Well, if everything costs 1/3 the usual chakra we have effectively tripled our reserves (aside from Summoning.) If we can study this effect and replicate it with runes (possibly with Noburi's help) then not only does our mission get easier but we can also provide this effect to Leaf's assault force when we fight Akatsuki.

After that, I think we leave the EN and beeline for Neck, and finish the Squirrel mission so Mari can get one of her final missing pieces for S rank. With all of team Uplift we are absolutely cooking the Eastern nin. Ambush a squad, beat the crap out of them, drain them to refill SCs and have Mari weasel out the intel, then keep doing that till we find where the scroll is then descend on them with a small army.

Other stops I think could be worth it but are IMO less critical:
- crab island, if we can get a sample of chakra metal and figure out how to dupe it with runes we can arm the whole Leaf attack force with magic weapons.
- magic tree sap place in the East that heals you much faster. Severes suck so much ass for research so halving the time it takes to heal one is pretty useful if we get hurt unstagnating.
 
I don't think this is a good idea... while spacetime jutsu means that one Akatsuki member has a known way to bypass force domes, every Akatsuki member other than Deidara has known ways to cause devastation without explosions. Mostly not on the same scale Deidara or Konan can with explosions, admittedly, but a regular old massacre is enough of a threat.
I also think that Kisame hitting Leaf with a massive tidal wave is a problem.

Subsequently, if we create a rune that limits the electrical conductivity of everything in its area of effect to a low enough threshold, it will instantly kill every Akatsuki member in there by way of preventing all of their nerves from working. S-Ranks don't matter.
I like this idea. We should at least do a DC on it (or whatever our runic equivalent is right now).

Also, @eaglejarl, @Paperclipped or @Velorien, is DoB something that only Hazō can get or could another sealmaster (specifically Kagome) get it too?

If so, I think we should try to convince Kagome to get it with us.
 
I actually have a stop I'd like to make before we head East. The chakra water pool in Wind is extremely useful for our mission. We're concerned with sourcing chakra outside of Leaf. Well, if everything costs 1/3 the usual chakra we have effectively tripled our reserves (aside from Summoning.) If we can study this effect and replicate it with runes (possibly with Noburi's help) then not only does our mission get easier but we can also provide this effect to Leaf's assault force when we fight Akatsuki.
Isn't the Akasuki's presence in Wind Country pretty heavy, though? Or is that just Sand-proper?

I do think that heading to the East would be a good idea. We know that Naruto's going to send them there after checking out Iron and a few other places, so while we're there, we could set a false trail for them to eventually catch up on.
 
That's why I suggested the anti-conductivity rune. That would kill every living thing in its AoE because nerves. And Hazou can know to make it without any meta funny business (that plagued many a cool rune) because... eh, as described above.
Bear in mind that nerves do not operate like electrical wiring. There is no flow of electrons in nerves; they operate by the propagation of a wave of membrane depolarization. (The membranes of ~all cells , and especially neurons, are polarized in that there is a gradient of charge across the membrane; cells are generally net negatively charged inside, with their environment having a net positive charge. Neurons use voltage-gated ion channels, channels which open or close depending on the strength of the charge gradient, to create a self-propagating wave of depolarization; ions move across the membrane, reducing the charge gradient, causing neighbouring ion channels to open and ions to flow in there as well. This results in a signal that rapidly propagates along the neuron.)

As a result, a rune that reduces conductivity (in whatever sealing-magic way might let it do that without breaking all of chemistry) may well not affect nerve impulses.
 
Naruto said Sand and the minors, which presumably would include Fang and former-Claw. So...yeah.
Isn't the Akasuki's presence in Wind Country pretty heavy, though? Or is that just Sand-proper?
To be clear is it Wind that they have high presence in or Sand?

Sand having spies makes sense, there are loyalists hiding in their ranks. That's different from people combing over a giant empty desert
 
To be clear is it Wind that they have high presence in or Sand?

Sand having spies makes sense, there are loyalists hiding in their ranks. That's different from people combing over a giant empty desert
TBF the place is described as being "near the mountains" which combined with the location of the crystal cave being near a village leads me to believe that there's some manner of civilization in the vicinity, hence some level of concern.

EDIT: To actually answer the question, probably Sand mostly, but definitely also in areas of Wind Country and the minor countries.
 
Bear in mind that nerves do not operate like electrical wiring. There is no flow of electrons in nerves; they operate by the propagation of a wave of membrane depolarization. (The membranes of ~all cells , and especially neurons, are polarized in that there is a gradient of charge across the membrane; cells are generally net negatively charged inside, with their environment having a net positive charge. Neurons use voltage-gated ion channels, channels which open or close depending on the strength of the charge gradient, to create a self-propagating wave of depolarization; ions move across the membrane, reducing the charge gradient, causing neighbouring ion channels to open and ions to flow in there as well. This results in a signal that rapidly propagates along the neuron.)

As a result, a rune that reduces conductivity (in whatever sealing-magic way might let it do that without breaking all of chemistry) may well not affect nerve impulses.

You are entirely correct that the nervous system is not a collection of wires in its precise functionality. Thank you for the reminder. I had honestly not recalled all that until then.

However, Itachi still instantly dies:

(1) The evolution of the myelin sheathing specifically was a breakthrough in that it increased neural system performance drastically in organisms via insulating the axons. That alone strongly suggests that conductivity and insulation are vital for neurons to function. In addition, that single example shows that even increasing conductivity significantly would similarly disable nerves. This is significant because we can observe a small part of it IRL. So that's a new avenue (incidentally supporting the importance of conductivity and insulation in the nervous system), which is nice, but let's go back to the original:

(2) A precise example of what removing electrical conductivity would do:
Mitochondria produce ATP through oxidative phosphorylation, which relies on electron transport chains where electrons are transferred through a series of protein complexes. This no longer works, since those electrons cannot be transferred. Thus Itachi's cells no longer produce ATP. No ATP means no active transport of ions (The Na+/K+ ATPase pump uses vast and continuous ATP to maintain the gradient of sodium and potassium ions across the cell membrane), disrupting resting membrane potential and action potential generation in all nerves. The moment that happens, Itachi's nerves stop working.
Itachi still becomes an S-Class vegetable.

(3) As a third option, I do not think that the voltage-gated channels would actually open (ignoring the ATP path above) without the voltage gradient changes on the membrane being conducted to the channel. In other terms that gate should not "know" anything about the charge gradient because conductivity is the only way it *can* know (via the voltage sensor regions - either directly or though an electrical field, both of which require electrons to be conducted). Effective removal of physical properties makes things confusing, but here we are. Specifically, without electron movement we should not observe the voltage sensor regions detecting anything, hence all channels remaining closed. Anyway in this case, the same thing happens: Nerves don't work and the bird is dead.

To make a long story short, the nervous system makes use of electrical conductivity on multiple steps of its complicated and interconnected Rube Goldberg machine. If we take away any part of that, the machine no longer works. The above are some examples of specific parts that are being 'taken away', with explanations as to why they'd stop the machine immediately. These are certainly not exhaustive, but sufficient to demonstrate previously claimed capabilities.

I am therefore confident that we can simplify all of this to: "The effective removal of electrical conductivity is incredibly and immediately lethal."

Thank you for coming to my TED Talk.

(As I am not a professional in this field, this is half-remembered book knowledge combined with wikipedia patches. I hope that this longer explanation passes muster, and at least one of the (much higher/much lower) conductivity runes make sense with respect to their intended function.)

Edit: Also, none of the in-depth discussion really matters to Hazo, since he will expect and observe the "bundle of wires" concept in action. The simplified version is sufficient for his purposes.
 
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TBF the place is described as being "near the mountains" which combined with the location of the crystal cave being near a village leads me to believe that there's some manner of civilization in the vicinity, hence some level of concern.

EDIT: To actually answer the question, probably Sand mostly, but definitely also in areas of Wind Country and the minor countries.
Damn OK well if we're wanting to play it safe I guess we should consult the Sages about those chakra generating runes then...
 
Damn OK well if we're wanting to play it safe I guess we should consult the Sages about those chakra generating runes then...
Safe might not get the job done if we need a lot of chakra and are without much options though. Them's the breaks.

Wind Country is the largest country in the EN, and most of it is vast inhospitable desert with a desert mountain range running through the far side (not near New Sand or Old Sand). That mountain range is likely where the cave is.

They cannot possible have a spy network that spans an inhospitable desert of murderous chakra monsters the size of Pennsylvania. That just doesn't square.
 
Safe might not get the job done if we need a lot of chakra and are without much options though. Them's the breaks.

Wind Country is the largest country in the EN, and most of it is vast inhospitable desert with a desert mountain range running through the far side (not near New Sand or Old Sand). That mountain range is likely where the cave is.

They cannot possible have a spy network that spans an inhospitable desert of murderous chakra monsters the size of Pennsylvania. That just doesn't square.
Pretty sure our destination is further from new Sand than we currently are from Rain :V
 
They cannot possible have a spy network that spans an inhospitable desert of murderous chakra monsters the size of Pennsylvania. That just doesn't square.
Personal opinion: They don't have to, they just need to have spies in the civilian hamlets/whatever self-sufficient towns exist in the area.

THe corresponding solution, therefore, is to locate and descend upon the cave system from above, avoiding even the slightest hint of civilian contact, and not leaving said cave system until it's time to leave the region entirely.
 
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