Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
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- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard open voting
- Location
- Book Fort
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Sounds like Project Omnicule
- Location
- Yes.
[X] Interlude: In which Shikigami decides to not go to Leaf.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
I'm pretty sure the mission he gave us wasn't about killing the first twelve Leopards that we have an opportunity to kill. Crippling one in between should not be an issue if we make up for it after. But yes, that too is a concern that should be covered by the sanity check I requested.
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Please ping me to vote for plans which interpret the spirit of Cannai's orders as 'kill any Leopard combatants you encounter except insofar as I have explicitly instructed you otherwise'.
Dog noncombatants who posed no threat to Leopard have been killed in raids. Cannai's attempts at diplomacy have been rejected. Our opponents are allied with genocidal fascists despite the fact that an alliance with the other side was offered and viable. Carrying out Cannai's orders is an explicit attempt to force the other party to the negotiating table as opposed to brutal violence.
Interpreting Cannai's orders is well above our pay grade and could potentially sabotage broader attempts at diplomacy and a peaceful resolution.
Dog noncombatants who posed no threat to Leopard have been killed in raids. Cannai's attempts at diplomacy have been rejected. Our opponents are allied with genocidal fascists despite the fact that an alliance with the other side was offered and viable. Carrying out Cannai's orders is an explicit attempt to force the other party to the negotiating table as opposed to brutal violence.
Interpreting Cannai's orders is well above our pay grade and could potentially sabotage broader attempts at diplomacy and a peaceful resolution.
we don't know if they are genocidal. there was that time some pangolins talked about it. but was that mere rumors, their personal opinion, or was it the actual military plan of high command? how many pangolins would share the opinion? if it was the plan, what made them switch to cultural assimilation/indoctrination?
- Location
- The Soviet Republic of Canuckistan
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I am not interested in conversing with someone so disconnected from the text of the work and perhaps reality that they are straightfacedly taking issue with someone applying the descriptor of 'genocidal' to the Pangolins. Your argument is strictly conjecture and smacks of apologism for some of humanity's worst acts.
'Cultural assimilation' is plainly genocide. Look at Canada's treatment of indigenous people if you need examples - there was perhaps no explicit plan of extermination via mass murder but the Nazis took careful notes from our residential schools. An earnest and calculated attempt was made to destroy a nation and a culture.
Do better.
- Location
- America
Which is why I said threaten to torture them or torture them instead of promising to spare them.
Imo the implementation of the sanity check is a little off since the suggestion itself can do damage. We're basically sanity checking with the same person we're proposing the thing to.
Since you said you don't want to converse, the following is addressed to the thread.
I will note that I am purposefully ignoring the Canada point, and not doing a rhetorical sleight of hand. It might be a good point, but I do not understand it's significance from a brief search on it and I lost motivation to keep on searching.
The burden of proof is on you, not me.
Apparently the official (or at least wikipedia) definition of genocide is significantly different from the colloquial intuitive one. Inferring from official general definitions, and groups have disagreements on the definitions, cultural genocide could fit. Although one group, the United Nations, does specifically single out cultural genocide as not genocide.
I will note that I am purposefully ignoring the Canada point, and not doing a rhetorical sleight of hand. It might be a good point, but I do not understand it's significance from a brief search on it and I lost motivation to keep on searching.
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
@FaintlySorcerous @roobee
Do not make this personal. Do not bring real world examples into this. And don't try to make excuses for the Pangolin's absolutely abhorrent treatment of the condors, regardless of the technical accuracy of the information. Nobody cares if it's 'technically' considered genocide or not, it's fucking awful either way which was the entire point. Quibbling about definitions just makes the thread worse.
Do not make this personal. Do not bring real world examples into this. And don't try to make excuses for the Pangolin's absolutely abhorrent treatment of the condors, regardless of the technical accuracy of the information. Nobody cares if it's 'technically' considered genocide or not, it's fucking awful either way which was the entire point. Quibbling about definitions just makes the thread worse.
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there is merit to not quibbling about definitions. but i also don't like when words are overloaded and used beyond their meaning. these things come in tension. there is also epistemic value in only attributing acts to a group that it actually did. even if it is evil regardless because of other acts it did. but i suppose only new readers who skip to current chapters would be confused by the word choice, so a rarity.
Zampano
🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈🏳️🌈
- Location
- Simping for DSB
I'm forking the currently leading plan because I think that the best possible outcome from being clever about negotiations with the wounded Leopards is just getting an eyeroll from the dogs who will then execute the prisoners anyway. But the worst possible outcome is some convex combination of treason against Cannai, oathbreaking in the eyes of the dogs, and a major OPSEC breach by allowing the Leopards to talk to their boss before Hazo goes on additional raids to reach 12 punitive kills.
Note:
SCSA - Scenery Clone Seal Array
SSSA - Silence Shell Seal Array
[x] kill them, in no uncertain terms
wordcount: 389 words
Note:
SCSA - Scenery Clone Seal Array
SSSA - Silence Shell Seal Array
[x] kill them, in no uncertain terms
wordcount: 389 words
- Declare (-1 FP) that Hazou has Kagome's entire stockpile of SCSA and SSSA, plus what Kagome was able to scribe during our preparation time, and the remaining Banshee Fuckers, minus one for Kei (4 total).
- Replace any expended seals on the Dogs, make sure we have CATEARS+MARS chains ready.
- Give everyone chakdar
- Follow Cancurunchu's lead with the wounded Leopards
- Suggestion: Interrogate them, separately.
- Most intimidating dog takes point.
- Promise an easy death for the one who provides the most information.
- The other one dies hard.
- Suggest including these questions:
- What was your target in Dog?
- How many Leopards are nearby?
- How far away are they?
- How many jounin/chunin/genin equivalent warriors are there?
- Any sensory specialists?
- Any ranged fighters?
- Are there any settlements/encampments nearby?
- Suggestion: Interrogate them, separately.
- Based on the intel and chakra levels of the Dogs, present the following combat scenarios to Cancurunchu for discussion
- Plan A - Retreat to the Dog to rest/recover chakra, leaving behind traps -- skyslicers on the boundary of a SCSA would be almost impossible to spot.
- Set up invisible observation posts on the border with Shadow Clones/telescopes/SCSA/skytowers to detect the counterattack. Charge out to meet them, or set additional traps and wait.
- Make sure to refill from Nobs at check-in
- Make sure this fits the mission brief
- Set up invisible observation posts on the border with Shadow Clones/telescopes/SCSA/skytowers to detect the counterattack. Charge out to meet them, or set additional traps and wait.
- Plan B - Dig in here, fortify with skyslicers, Force Walls, SCSA, SSSA, Goo Bombs/Implosion Seals
- If possible, set up the team in a Zone with cover, surrounded by Zones without cover, trapped with Goo Bombs/Implosion Seals
- Disguise our traps using SCSA
- Place skyslicers close to Zone borders -- make sure the Dogs know the safe routes
- In the team's Zone, Hazou can go up 30 meters on a skytower and spot with a telescope, covered by the SCSA
- Plan C - Go hunting for a Leopard camp based on the intel we got, tunnel underneath it from a safe distance away to maintain surprise. Then buff up, pop out, and start killing.
- Plan A - Retreat to the Dog to rest/recover chakra, leaving behind traps -- skyslicers on the boundary of a SCSA would be almost impossible to spot.
- Follow Cancurunchu's lead and go with whatever he thinks is best.
- But, unless there are very few Leopards nearby, push for Plan C, or plan A if we don't have a good target.
- Staying static against an unknown force seems incredibly risky.
- But, unless there are very few Leopards nearby, push for Plan C, or plan A if we don't have a good target.
- Unsummon upon taking a Medium Consequence or fighting a clearly lost battle.
- Use SCSA + SSSA when we make camp
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@eaglejarl @Velorien @Paperclipped
Can I get a Hazoupilot sanity check on this? Given that Cannai's orders to us included this:
I am curious as to whether he thinks "promising to spare a prisoner as a ruse to extract information" would be a step too far for the Dogs. To me it seems likely that that falls under Cannai's "use deceit" order here. But the Seventh Path clans have issues about "oaths", I am not sure this would qualify, but I'd like to know what Hazoupilot thinks.
If he does think that it would qualify as an oath, does he think Cannai would have serious issues with sparing a prisoner if they cooperated? The word "treason" is being floated around to describe that, and that seems an absurd overreaction to me, so I want to check with Hazoupilot in case I've missed something. We can always kill an extra Leopard to make up weight.
Lastly, does Hazou think that doing an Arikada style interrogation of let's-see-how-many-body-parts-I-can-slice-off is more likely to work here? Or will the Dogs have issues with permanently crippling a Leopard so that they can't fight or get word to other Leopards we're coming?
what opsec breach? some already escaped. yes they could tell the leopards the intel we interrogated out of them. but that's info we don't even know if the interrogation fails (such as if no good incentive). and if the leopards rearrange themselves to make the intel out of date that's still a burden on them and it's no worse compared to if the interrogation failed. i wouldn't call it a major opsec breach.
- Location
- United States
I strongly concur with this perspective.
Being unduly kind to the cruel just results in more cruelty to those who are kind, and their allies, in the future.
Zampano
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- Location
- Simping for DSB
Hazo's Resolve stat, Ath stat, Sealing Stat, relative rank with the Dogs, lack of coordination and integration with the Dogs' fighting style and tactics, as well as his presence on the battlefield are all details that should not be confirmed by soldiers who fought him in close quarters.
Regardless of the other escapees, allowing any additional corroborating accounts of Dogs' fighting abilities is a mistake. Remember how we planned all those countermeasures to Akane's murderers? No, because we didn't get any details about their abilities. Remember how we planned all those countermeasures to Akatsuki 250 chapters ago? No, because Hazo never found any witnesses to the BotG who were willing to discuss the capabilities of various Jonin all operating with maximum killing intent.
to the cruel yes. do you consider these specific leopards cruel? we don't know if they raided the dogs. they did attack us which gives us the right to kill them barring surprises. but what if they thought we were going to kill them and were acting in self defense? still not a justification, but makes them perhaps not cruel? and if they are cruel, are these dogs and hazo cruel if they do plan c in sir stompy's plan to ambush some leopards without checking if they did anything wrong?
- Location
- UK
I think you're wrong about how high Hazō's pay grade is.
I do agree that getting in the way of them being killed is just going to cause conflict without actually changing anything, as well as being a pretty weird time to decide that the mission is objectionable.
redzonejoe
Vaguely Pastafarian
- Location
- Canada
Once again missing the point to focus on specifics.
Don't take what Ipsos said literally. In the context we're discussing, the meaning is still clear and has little to do with dictionary-definition cruelty.
The point is that Cannai has us doing this mission for a reason. The mission is ultimately well intentioned. Cannai is considering total war, and sending us out to do this raid is his hope for an alternative. By arguing for minimizing harm/cruelty now, we are putting at risk the goals of the mission, and may be inviting more harm/cruelty later.
This could take the shape of more raids, extended combat scenario all along dogs border, or indeed the ultimate death of all Leopards once dog goes on a more active war footing. If you want to save leopard lives, make sure the mission is a success.
Saving the injured Leopards may feel nice, but not if leaving them alive dooms the entire clan to death in the long run. The cruelty in the quote is not about somebody acting mean. We are not making judgments about whether any individual 'deserves' death, or if anybody did anything wrong. The cruelty is the hundreds of lives being lost in a war, and our mission is to prevent that by taking a few lives now. Prevent the cruelty of war by withholding our instinct to be kind, because our kindness makes us less intimidating, and intimidation is how we can save the Leopard clan as a whole.
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Huh. Thanks!
Some musings:
Seals/sealing is even more cracked then I thought. It's like a jutsu that you don't need to level, can create infinite variations, can transfer to others with minimal training, and sometimes creates WMD's.
Being a clan ninja is important in a different way then I'd originally guessed. Starting with a powerful jutsu is more important due to the pyramid nature then getting access to a lot of different jutsu. If you find a jutsu that's cracked later in your ninja career, due to the pyramid, it's a lot harder to level it up enough to make it useful, whereas if you started with it as your primary, you probably have it as your top level skill/jutsu.
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- Location
- Texas
Yeah, we've struggled with this for a while. The only real way around it seems to be to becomes a THer and tweak your primary jutsu to be awesome.
Heavy XP investment into TH required, obviously.