Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

roobee · Dec 23, 2022

shrooms is saying if kei ignores our thoughts and unilaterally informs ami, that breaks trust. he is not saying that that was kei's intent.

Shane_357 said:
You're assuming that none of the Dragons have a 'exactly as far away as it appears' eldritch trick, where if you look at them through a telescope or something they're automatically close enough to touch you.

we could do a half test by having a blind (since they not allowed to see the seal) 7path summon use the telescope in the dragon/seal's general direction. if the telescope itself allows dragon teleport without even observance then they can die in kagome's stead.

Halberdier · Dec 23, 2022

faflec said:
Wait, why are they guaranteed to die to use EM nukes? Can't they just reverse summon out?

I am uncertain what the action economy is for unsummoning. When the Dragon attacked Hazou and co that one time, even when Hazou was doing nothing other than watching it, we barely unsummoned in time to not die. If they can unsummon on the turn that they cast EM, then as long as we get it off, they're home free. But if we need to survive a turn between casting the nuke and wayshredding, while close to the dragons, that's much more perilous. All this assuming we can get close enough without any of the dragons and their perception interactions ganking our fire friends.

OOC, the mechanics may not instantly let them leave. IC, casting EM may make them vulnerable for a moment, especially cracked up to nuke levels.

roobee · Dec 23, 2022

dog bosss unsummoned us when we looked at the great seal. could have him reverse summon us after em. timing tricky, especially if he can not look at great seal.

T_of_A · Dec 23, 2022

[X] Interlude: The New Genin Teams

eaglejarl · Dec 23, 2022

Halberdier said:
I am uncertain what the action economy is for unsummoning. When the Dragon attacked Hazou and co that one time, even when Hazou was doing nothing other than watching it, we barely unsummoned in time to not die. If they can unsummon on the turn that they cast EM, then as long as we get it off, they're home free. But if we need to survive a turn between casting the nuke and wayshredding, while close to the dragons, that's much more perilous. All this assuming we can get close enough without any of the dragons and their perception interactions ganking our fire friends.

OOC, the mechanics may not instantly let them leave. IC, casting EM may make them vulnerable for a moment, especially cracked up to nuke levels.

It takes about a minute for the EM nuke to really kick off. Plenty of time to unsummon.

Sir Stompy said:
Since we're looking at a month timeskip at least, and possibly 6 months, for your plan, I'm gonna unvote and vote for an interlude. I don't feel comfortable skipping for that long atm.

I wouldn't timeskip that long. We ran a poll for it and the longest that people are comfortable with seems to be about 2 months. For the next couple of updates I'll likely only be doing a day or at most a research cycle (a bit more than a week).

roobee said:
dog bosss unsummoned us when we looked at the great seal. could have him reverse summon us after em. timing tricky, especially if he can not look at great seal.

Bosses can't kick you off the Path or pull you to it. Hazō unsummoned himself.

faflec · Dec 23, 2022

roobee said:
shrooms is saying if kei ignores our thoughts and unilaterally informs ami, that breaks trust. he is not saying that that was kei's intent.

I acknowledge this, but in the context of the discussion it'll sure sound to Kei like Hazou thinks she is breaking trust.

Anderkent · Dec 23, 2022

eaglejarl said:
It takes about a minute for the EM nuke to really kick off. Plenty of time to unsummon.

i think the danger is from spending a turn near dragons after triggering EM, not from EM nuke itself

roobee · Dec 23, 2022

oh bosses can stop you from crossing paths. but can't force you to cross. that's what it was.

unrelatedly

eaglejarl said:
You still not to touch the Great Seal. Not unless there is no other way and world ending is. So it is sworn.

eaglejarl said:
Do not be at one with other females. Do not lie to Great Mother. Do not renovate Orbularium without permission."

forgot about these oaths we made.
also

eaglejarl said:
"IS there ANything you caN 7ell me about eht tuoba em tell me about the Paths, or how travel between them works, or anything like that?"

Cannai paused, thinking. "I don't think so. Yes, I have an inherent awareness of teh jalhp 325O@ and how it !nt37cts with the..."

we should ask cannai again about this stuff

Halberdier · Dec 23, 2022

I do not have the time/spoons to create a plan right now, but if anyone makes a plan that 1) talks to Akane about her changed behavior/opsec, and 2) has kind of a 'town hall' for our clan and next steps, I'd love that. Especially since we have clan members die, we're changing estates, and recently adopted ninja we don't really know, getting all the ninja (plus a couple civilians like Gaku) together to talk about perception and properties sounds like a good idea.

acidshill · Dec 23, 2022

acidshill said:
I'm also vaguely worried that this plan might be missing something important, because lately I haven't been closely tracking all of the things that need to happen. Maybe that's just me.

Halberdier said:
1) talks to Akane about her changed behavior/IPsec

Oh right, Shrooms' plan was missing this. Could be important.

RandomOTP · Dec 23, 2022

[X] Interlude: Fifi Explores the New Estate

Oneiros · Dec 23, 2022

Forked a version of @Shrooms plan. Has no Oro and no time skip.
[X] Action plan: a less scary but still cool plan

Kei:
- Optimize and sanity check with Mari
- Kei may trust Ami absolutely, but you don't. If Ami's informed, it wouldn't only let her optimize our plans to mutual benefit; it'd let her improve the outcome according to her preferences at our preferences' expense.
- Your uncertainty over Ami's preferences, combined with her sheer power to optimize for them, is enough that, by default, you would not inform her — perhaps until much later. If Kei informs her unilaterally you'd consider that a breach of trust.
- However, you agree there's mutual benefits to be gained. Thus, a preferred condition:
- Ami commits to only use information shared in a way which doesn't disadvantage you compared to the counterfactual world where she wasn't involved.
- This condition is waived once uninformed!Ami would've learned of the project "naturally", e.g., when we go public with Jiraiya's resurrection.
- Ami additionally commits to not artificially advance the waiving of this condition, e.g. suggesting strategies which would, as unnecessary side effects, make the project visible to uninformed!Ami.
  - For minor matters, Ami's free to use her model of you. For bigger moves, she gives you an opportunity to veto.
Akane:
- Snowflake said to talk to you. What's up?
Arachnid
- Sanity check with Kagome/Mari/Kei
- The Aburame agreed to apply their glass/optics expertise to produce a telescope a few months ago after receiving R&D payment from Hazou. If necessary, Declare they finished a prototype for Kagome's use.
- Check out Great Seal with Kagome without getting eaten.
- Discuss if there's anything we can do to stabilize the Great Seal
- See if Kagome has ideas for where we can source better materials to try 3-D sealing
Other (Offscreen)
- Sealing
  - Complete research on Minato's next seal in the chain.

roobee · Dec 23, 2022

[X] Action plan: a less scary but still cool plan

Black King · Dec 23, 2022

[X] Action plan: a less scary but still cool plan

Sir Stompy · Dec 23, 2022

acidshill said:
I suspect that Kei would not like for Mari to optimize any of Hazō's conversations with her, but mere sanity checking seems like a good idea.

I suspect that I don't care about this.

Oneiros said:
Check out Great Seal with your Uncle without getting eaten.

I think the Uncle here is Oro and it could just be changed to Kagome without losing any information.

@Oneiros Can you include the standard language sanity check with Mari/Kei/whoever else we're doing these days?

[X] Action plan: a less scary but still cool plan

Halberdier · Dec 23, 2022

I'm open to suggestions, and will try to get on my laptop later to format it better, but I really don't know how much time I'll have.

[X] Action Plan: Please someone adopt this
Words: < 300

Akane
-Shard told us to talk to you, and that they advise letting us in on what's going on.
-We're concerned. We know you're going through a lot, and we don't know how to help.
-We understand if you don't want to talk to us, because of our role, but you can always be honest with us.
-How is your mom doing?

Clan Meeting
-Lots happened recently. Adoptions, deaths, about to move. Let's take stock.
-Anyone is welcome to come and make comments. We'd really like clan ninja, and civilians in charge of notable projects though.
-What do you think should be clan priorities that we aren't meeting? Ways we can structure things better in the new compound?
-We want to make sure we don't miss things, and help all our clan members find their niche within the clan.

Misc
-Continue researching Minato seal chain.
-Try to find shattered/cracking stones, similar to the great seal. See if they can be mended back together. Acquire different minerals/gems if needed for practicing.

Oneiros · Dec 23, 2022

Sir Stompy said:
I suspect that I don't care about this.

I think the Uncle here is Oro and it could just be changed to Kagome without losing any information.

@Oneiros Can you include the standard language sanity check with Mari/Kei/whoever else we're doing these days?

[X] Action plan: a less scary but still cool plan

Done

Shrooms · Dec 23, 2022

[X] Action plan: a less scary but still cool plan

Would like to actually do something

Noumero · Dec 23, 2022

[X] Action plan: a less scary but still cool plan

Cariyaga · Dec 23, 2022

[X] Action plan: a less scary but still cool plan

FaintlySorcerous · Dec 23, 2022

@Oneiros and @Shrooms I went through the Shrooms' plan and made some tweaks which IMO streamline things while also asking Kei if she'd be able to get a decent promise out of Ami. It also includes the shortest possible Akane section, because honestly I'm comfortable leaving that situation almost entirely to Pilot. What I'm not comfortable with is timeskipping without having ticked that particular box.

I'm happy to de-vote for the interlude if either of you implements most/all of these changes (Akane being a critical one).

Maintain OPSEC/INFOSEC throughout.

Kei:

Tone: brainstorming, not dictating.

Kei trusts Ami absolutely; you don't. If Ami's informed, she could engineer outcomes according to her preferences at the expense of yours.

You suspect your preferences and Ami's diverge somewhat. This in conjunction with Ami's abilities means you're disinclined to inform her.

However, Ami obviously brings a lot to the table.

You propose:

Ami commits to only use information shared in a way which doesn't disadvantage you compared to the counterfactual world where she wasn't involved.

This condition is waived once uninformed!Ami would've learned of the project "naturally", e.g., when we go public with Jiraiya's resurrection.

Ami additionally commits to not artificially advance the waiving of this condition, e.g. suggesting strategies which would, as unnecessary side effects, make the project visible to uninformed!Ami.

If Ami's involved, you'd also want her to commit to discussing any big necromancy-related moves she might make with you. (Is this necessary to specify? Or just Hazo projecting his failure modes?)

You're concerned that Ami might break a promise to you given sufficient incentives. But she'd never break a promise to Kei, if the promise was important to Kei. Are these things important to Kei? Would she ask for that promise?

Akane:

Snowflake said to talk to you. What's up?

Arachnid

Sanity check with Kagome/Mari/Kei

Skip to a Snake arriving in Arachnid so Orochimaru can investigate the Great Seal, as previously agreed.

The Aburame agreed to apply their glass/optics expertise to produce a telescope a few months ago after receiving R&D payment from Hazou. If necessary, Declare they finished a prototype for Kagome's use.

Investigate the Great Seal with your Uncles without getting eaten.

Other (Offscreen)

Sealing

Complete research on the next Minato seal.

Visit Mareo.

Halberdier · Dec 23, 2022

[] FaintlySorcerous

Oneiros · Dec 24, 2022

FaintlySorcerous said:
@Oneiros and @Shrooms I went through the Shrooms' plan and made some tweaks which IMO streamline things while also asking Kei if she'd be able to get a decent promise out of Ami. It also includes the shortest possible Akane section, because honestly I'm comfortable leaving that situation almost entirely to Pilot. What I'm not comfortable with is timeskipping without having ticked that particular box.

I'm happy to de-vote for the interlude if either of you implements most/all of these changes (Akane being a critical one).

Implemented the Akane bit. I'm def not as big of a fan of your Ami section. Feels way to soft for me. I also am about to fall asleep so may not be at my brightest right now. Will for sure take another look at in the morning

FaintlySorcerous · Dec 24, 2022

Oneiros said:
Implemented the Akane bit.

Thank you! You don't have a timeskip in yours, so I'm less worried about it.

Are we worried about not putting more thought into that section? Honestly without a timeskip I might prefer to devote more words to that section. Hm. Do what you want, probably.

Oneiros said:
I'm def not as big of a fan of your Ami section. Feels way to soft for me.

If you can elaborate I'd be interested. What are you worried the outcome of the conversation would be compared to taking a harder/more dictatorial approach?

IMO if we're communicating the same things, given Vel's clarification that Kei intended that as a 'hey, sanity-check this Hazo' statement I think that taking the approach of batting the idea around is pretty reasonable.

Oneiros said:
I also am about to fall asleep so may not be at my brightest right now. Will for sure take another look at in the morning

Sounds good!

coldcutconvict · Dec 24, 2022

[X] Action plan: a less scary but still cool plan
[X] Action Plan: Please someone adopt this

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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