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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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This is absurd.

'How do you try to understand how something works without already understanding how it works?'

The side chain would be researching and developing Windsight, likely springboarding from a base proof of concept that involves a rune combo amped via Fimir Mearach eyes.



The main benefit to mind of things is that it's essentially triple dipping - progress towards the full Rune of Brotherhood, memory storage/transference, the Master Rune of Kingship and potentially holocrons, on top of trying to uncover the Windsight side chain. The problem is we don't know exactly where the side chain would be - it could be 5b (and likely is, given how the narrative has been shaping up so far), or it could be 6b if Soulcake is feeling reticent. 6 Prods has a decent chance of finishing Part 5 outright, and if not puts it within easy touching distance.



The latter of these is significantly easier to slot around other plans and action blocs, including major ones like Akazit, which people have been wanting to broach to a long time.
It can go 2+1+2 as well. The 1 doesn't have to be first.
 
The issue comes from when you apply the single AP. In general, we don't like to leave single AP hanging during turn planning, barring exceptional circumstances like this turn (due to mass Prod spending), because it's massively wasteful for our traits, which usually require 2 or more actions invested. Going 2->(2+1) is actively worse than 1->(2+2), because it becomes very, very awkward to plan around and eats into the actions gained in other trees.
Our current War turn is marked as Pt 1.

We will not finish it this turn.
So we can do Pt 2 and the single action language next turn together with anything for 3 AP.
 
Unless I'm miscounting (very possible, admittedly) If we want to March, finish checking our armour, learn language with Yorri and Prod for Prod that would mean forgoing research into Mind or Movement this turn.
Yes but you get more actions worth of research done as a thousand research actions into one thing is more research done than five hundred research actions into five hundred research projects.

Edit: If you want the actual math it's 22.5 actions with 9 prods and 30 actions with 12 prods on average.
 
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Our current War turn is marked as Pt 1.

We will not finish it this turn.
So we can do Pt 2 and the single action language next turn together with anything for 3 AP.
That's not how marching to war works. Go back and check the other campaign in the east. What that means is we get a few updates of war pt1, war pt2, war pt3 etc then this turn's results once we've finished our march.
It's not March to War [1AP] -> War update Part 1 -> Next Turn -> March to War [1AP] -> war part 2. It's March -> war part 1 -> war part 2 -> war part 3 etc -> war over -> turn results -> next turn.
Yes but you get more actions worth of research done and a thousand research actions into one thing is more research done than five hundred research actions into five hundred research projects after all.
Nevermind, I miscounted something.
 
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Hmm, is it possible @Xepheria if we can use the three new prods we will get from prod with Yorri, and just slap those onto mind, or alternatively, movement?
 
Hopefully someone else like snerra and her retainers can take care of dorden we frankly need more warmachines taking on those firmir cities.
 
I thought that it wasn't possible to get two Prod for Prods in one turn.

[X] Plan Research Explosion

I don't know, there's a lot going on with this vote. Our base 5 Actions, Retainer Actions, Heir Actions, Prods, Favor. Soooo, I'll just jump on something that seems to be getting the most support while also doing things I otherwise agree with.
 
@rokafella

Would this be what you are asking for? 2 AP into Movement of things, and 9 Prods? Here's a Deep Magic Plan, that differs from @Xepheria by 1 AP, since I agree with everything else in the plan, except splitting Snorri's attention between Movement and Mind. Hope you don't mind Xepharia!

Maximum Movement of Things progress is 3+9D2 = 21 to 30 Progress - which is the most progress in any tree made in quest so far and is likely to have us clear about two stages of Movement of Things in one go. It also has the advantage of proccing Snorri's Master of the Odd trait, so we aren't wasting AP here long run.

If you want a Mind of Things version, just replace Movement of Things with Mind of Things.



Never mind all of that, events have outpaced me. Lag has a 12 prod version, but it's on Mind. Here's 12 prod version on Movement. 25-37 progress down Movement of Things.


[X] Plan Deepest Magic
- [X] March: [Cost: 1 action] Begin event, "Fimir Campaign Pt. 1. [1AP]
- [X] The Road to Anoqeyån Pt. 2: [Cost: 6 actions] Master of the Odd will proc. Gain exceptional- understanding of Anoqeyån. [1AP]
-- [X] Involve Yorri: [Cost +1 action] Gain x3 Yorri prods. Your Master would obviously love to continue learning as well.
- [X] [Difficult] Understanding the Armour: [Cost: (6 -5) =1 action] Master of the Odd will proc. Gain Movement of Things Progress, ???. s. [1AP]
- [X] Prod for Prod: [Cost: 1 action] Gain x3 Yorri prods. . [1AP]
-[X] [Difficult] The Movement of Things Pt. 5, new totals: [Cost: (14 -7) =7 actions] Master of the Odd will proc.. [1AP, 12 Prods]
-- [X] Prod Yorri: [Cost 1 prod] Gain 1d2+1 progress, can be taken multiple times. Master Yorri simply chuckles mysteriously at you.
- [X] [Simple] Firebird's Feather: [Cost: (2 -1) =1 actions] Master of the Odd will proc. [1 Research Action]
- [X] [Simple] A Wonderful Endeavour: [Cost: 24 actions] Minimum completion date end of Turn 52. Peerless Production will proc for general actions. [0AP]
-- [X] Petition the Hold: [Cost: 15 Kraka Drakk Favour] Gain 1 progress, can only be taken 3 times a turn and without action input. Begin speaking with the King, the various Guilds and Clans in Kraka Drakk to contribute to the Workshop's construction. [45 Drakk Favour]
- [X] [Simple] Lion Autopsy: [Cost: 3 actions] Master of the Odd will proc. [1 Karstah Action]
-- [X] Destructive Research: [Cost: 2 White Lion Corpses] Gain 1d2 progress, can be taken multiple times. [2 White Lion Corpses]
- [X] The Throng is Mustered: [Cost: 1 retainer action] Can be taken multiple times. Gain Bonus to Throng Rolls against Fimir, additional actions apply bonus to roll. Minor Chance for Casualties/Fatalities.
-[X] Secure the Woods: [Cost: 1 retainer action] Gain +20 Favour with Kraka Dorden and Ravsnvake. Dorden increases contribution and production of Warmachines towards war effort, Ravsnvake gains improved ranger weapons. The Karak will send forces to clear the groves by the end of Turn 48. Minor to Moderate Chance for Casualties/Fatalities.
- [X] Waywarding: [Cost: 1 action or retainer action] Gain bonus to Waystone rolls and update on status of Waystones. Can be taken multiple times.
- [X] ORDER: Write-in: 1x Frostbird Feather



[X] Plan A True Explosion
[X] Plan Research Explosion

Because 1 AP to Brotherhood Calls via Kartash doesn't sit well to me, and I agree with everything else in Xepharia's plan....
 
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Am I miscounting or are both Explosion plans over by 1 AP?
March 1 each
Armour 1 each
Anoqeyån 1 each
-With Yorri 1 each
Mind 1 each
Movement 1 for Research Explosion
Prod for Prod 1 for True Explosion
1 Research action each for Firebird
That's 6 AP and a research action each. We have 5 AP and a research action.

You have 5 actions, 3 retainer actions, 1 research action, 1 heir action and [Special] 6 Yorri prods this turn,
 
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@rokafella

Would this be what you are asking for? 2 AP into Movement of things, and 9 Prods? Here's a Deep Magic Plan, that differs from @Xepheria by 1 AP.

[X] Plan Research Deepest Magic
-[X] March: [Cost: 1 action] Begin event, "Fimir Campaign Pt. 1." Your body is healed, your fury roaring like the fires of a freshly stoked furnace. Let them know the anger of a Runelord roused to anger! Let them know the contempt of the wronged and that the Dwarfs shall never, never, allow a debt to remain unsettled if they can help it! [1AP]
-[X] The Road to Anoqeyån Pt. 2: [Cost: 6 actions] Master of the Odd will proc. Gain exceptional- understanding of Anoqeyån. Now that Menlinwen has taught you the very fundamentals of the Elven arcane language, she feels comfortable enough to begin teaching you to the same level she has reached. Going any further beyond this point requires waiting for Menlinwen to become an Archmage or for you to find one yourself. [1AP]
-[X] Involve Yorri: [Cost +1 action] Gain x3 Yorri prods. Your Master would obviously love to continue learning as well.
-[X] [Difficult] Understanding the Armour: [Cost: (6 -5) =1 action] Master of the Odd will proc. Gain Movement of Things Progress, ???. You have absolutely no clue how and why Barak Azamar managed to drag whatever the Construct is from wherever it came from and seemingly bound it to your equipment. There's a mystery afoot, and you want to figure out why and how this happened before you can even begin thinking about the implications of what it all means. [1AP]
-[X] [Difficult] The Movement of Things Pt. 5, new totals: [Cost: (14 -7) =7 actions] Master of the Odd will proc. Energy, energy, energy. All Runes require it, such is the basis of their existence. You know that most Runes likely draw upon the Winds of Magic. But you also know that the Deep Magic, the power of the Earth, is a truly massive wellspring of energy, if one reaches deep enough that is. You have taken the first tentative steps to using it, but want to see, to truly understand that flow, and hopefully one day control it as easily as you could your hammer. [2AP]
--[X] Prod Yorri: [Cost: 1 prod] Gain 1d2+1 progress, can be taken multiple times. Master Yorri simply chuckles mysteriously at you. [9 Prods]
-[X] [Simple] Firebird's Feather: [Cost: (2 -1) =1 actions] Master of the Odd will proc. You've got a feather! Its an odd little piece of deep red flaming plumage that emanates a faint heat and sometimes combusts into flames that do no lasting damage to it. Transported at great expense, barely a dent in your coffers though, and with a few notes and tales about the animal in question that it came from. A simple enough task to figure out what this thing will do. There's a large body of work regarding the firebirds of the north already, and you can use that as a good starting point in your own research. [1 Research Action]
-[X] [Simple] A Wonderful Endeavour: [Cost: 24 actions] Minimum completion date end of Turn 52. Peerless Production will proc for general actions. You have begun pondering the meaning of legacy more often in your old age. To leave something behind to carry on long after you have entered the Halls of your Forebears. Your apprentices are your most important, yet the most limited in the grand scheme. The Runes and creations you create are less personal, but greater in scope and reach. This. This shall bridge that gap, take the best of both and make something beyond them. A place you can build and cultivate, one whose reach is so vast that the name Snorri Klausson will not merely be one of the Runelords of the Past, but a figure even the common Dwarf shall know many centuries, nay millennia, after you have died. This will define you in a way few other things have; more than the defeating of a great enemy, or the forging of a mighty item of power, it is to build something wondrous and in doing, irreversibly change everything forever. [0AP]
--[X] Petition the Hold: [Cost: 15 Kraka Drakk Favour] Gain 1 progress, can only be taken 3 times a turn and without action input. Begin speaking with the King, the various Guilds and Clans in Kraka Drakk to contribute to the Workshop's construction. [45 Drakk Favour]
-[X] [Simple] Lion Autopsy: [Cost: 3 actions] Master of the Odd will proc. Even in death, you must admit there is a fierce beauty to the animal. Several of its organs lie preserved in magically enchanted jars, put there by the Hunter who slew the massive feline and part of the order itself. Though without the use of Runes who's to say about their freshness. Regardless, it's still worth investigating. [1 Karstah Action]
--[X] Destructive Research: [Cost: 2 White Lion Corpses] Gain 1d2 progress, can be taken multiple times. You have enough corpses that you feel comfortable making a few unusable in the name of learning. [4 White Lion Corpses]
-[X] The Throng is Mustered: [Cost: 1 retainer action] Can be taken multiple times. Gain Bonus to Throng Rolls against Fimir, additional actions apply bonus to roll. Minor Chance for Casualties/Fatalities. The King of Kraka Drakk calls the Throng to war, lend the might of your Retainers to his cause. You have no real clue as to how developed the Fimir presence is, but given the corpse Rudil dragged back you have a feeling they've been here a while.
-[X] Scouting: [Cost: 1 retainer action] Gain minor bonus to Waystone rolls. Can be taken multiple times. Roll for usefulness, additional actions apply bonus to roll. Send out your Retainers, scour the Far North to see if there's some of these stones that Master Yorri Missed.
-[X] Waywarding: [Cost: 1 action or retainer action] Gain bonus to Waystone rolls and update on status of Waystones. Can be taken multiple times. There is no set time in which you or your retainers are meant to check on these stone monoliths, but doing so more regularly will mean that you're more likely to keep them safe and know their status.
-[X] ORDER: Write-in: 1x Frostbird Feather
Yes and no, see when we do the AP with Yorri, thanks to the Anoqeyån plan, we can use those prods and then slot them in either mind, or movement. Hence, why after reading from Sirlags, I wanted to ask @Xepheria if that was okay with him.
 
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Am I miscounting or are both Explosion plans over by 1 AP?
March 1 each
Armour 1 each
Anoqeyån 1 each
-With Yorri 1 each
Mind 1 each
Movement 1 for Research Explosion
Prod for Prod 1 for True Explosion
1 Research action each for Firebird
That's 6 AP and a research action each. We have 5 AP and a research action.
Yorri adds 1 to the needed total, not as an immediate cost.
 
Fjolla comes to your home during a calm summer's day, though to your surprise, not alone.

"That's a baby," you say, eyeing the bundle that stares back at you just as intently.

"His name's Stokki," she replies.
Do you Think that giving every child in the karak two toys was impressive? that was centuries ago, we had to sleep back then, now thou, now our apprentice won't ever see the sun again under the massive piles of runic toys her kid will receive.
"I will miss the quiet," she says, "But enough wool-gathering I think. I also came here to ask if I may name the next one after you, supposing he's a boy of course."

You blink.
no, forget the sun; she won't ever see walls again.
 
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I am absolutely certain that not only will we not get any of these from mind pt4, but that it will also lead to not getting any deep magic from movement either because it's locked behind at least pt 6. It's going to be mind pt5 if we get lucky or pt6 or 7 more likely. If it a side chain then we don't have anything useful to show for the next few projects to show for it.

An improvement on the Rune of Brotherhood has literally come up directly in text surrounding Part 4 - just after Part 3 finished, we were given this bit of narration:

Your ordeal did have a worthy reward at the end however because Yorri taught you several Runes that were imminently useful for your projects. Individual Runes for hearing, sight, taste and smell to go along with your Rune of Forged Limb. Yorri liked to call the entire set the Runes of Sensation, and it's a name that's both catchy and accurate enough for you to be inclined to use it as well. By that point, you were perfectly content with what your teacher had delivered, but it appeared he wasn't. Because as soon as you had those Runes mastered he started bombarding you with yet more lessons and theory. To Yorri the Runes of Sensation were only a test, a proof of concept, for a much more interesting, to him at least, concept.

The Dwarfen mind.

Perception, thoughts, memories and knowledge. It isn't an understatement to say a Dwarf's head is where everything important is kept. Figuring how to translate sensations to the mind through the use of Runes is the beginning of delving deeper into that particular path of knowledge. You don't need your teacher to point out the obvious example of improving the Rune of Brotherhood, and how such knowledge could help you understand, or better yet, control and improve, its oftentimes mysterious method of selection. He won't say how far along he's gone in that regard, saying that you're well on your way, and that teaching you any further would be depriving you of the experience. That and you haven't yet proven worthy, but that needn't be said really.

In general 'this substantial research tree won't get us anything' isn't a particularly compelling argument.

Movement of Things 4 gave us a bunch of minor runes relating to manipulating and drawing on deep magic. Part 5 is likely to give something much more substantial, given the anomalous size of its action cost - beyond that, we have precisely zero clue as to what later parts might contain. In general, Part 5 for both of these research trees is where the good, general-purpose shit with no small amount of utility is going to be, with higher parts being much more specialised and focused applications and new lines or research.

A frequent pattern with these research trees is the alternation between major and minor research steps.

Movement 3 gave significantly improved M.Awakening, and the ability for it to be applied to any form. Movement 4 was a bunch of minor deep-magic runes. Movement 5 is massive, and will likely result in a significant breakthrough in understanding, after which the next step will be another minor step.

Mind 3 gave the Runes of Sensation, the full suite of prosthetics. Mind 4 is likely the first preliminary steps of dealing with direct interaction of the mind and memory involving the rune of brotherhood, with Mind 5 being the proper application of these tools.

You get the picture - the reason why more prods are dropped into Mind is because there is a strong possibility of outright completing Mind 5 on top of Movement 5, or if we get very unlucky, putting it within easy touching distance of future plans.


Hmm, is it possible @Xepheria if we can use the three new prods we will get from prod with Yorri, and just slap those onto mind, or alternatively, movement?

If you mean doing Prod-for-Prod or Anoqeyan and immediately putting them into an research path, yes, you can do that. The limitation here is that to invest prods, at least 1 AP must also be spent on the action, as prods themselves cannot finish research.
 
And also, I kind of want to spend some of the Yorri Prods on Thungni's Riddle...

Personally I feel Thugni's riddle is something we should solve ourself. This is a challenge from an Ancestor and the one most connected to our profession and as a matter of pride I think we should solve it ourselves.




I wonder if the Mind of Things could allow us to see through the eyes of a Gronti... Now imagine combining that with Dragon Gronti for a view of a battlefield.
 
I think there is a miscommunication between what the word action entails for Anoqeyån. If we add Yorri to it, we do not get another action to it as a cost, but one for our AP to use on something else, this has been shown at least with Eltharin if nothing else already.

And yes @Xepheria I meant for Anoqeyan, not prod for prod. As for where they go, I just meant for the ones you are putting them in, and if you wanted to, just slot them in whichever you preferred the most.
 
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[X] Plan Research Explosion

Best plan I've seen so far, but I'm definitely voting to at least get the first level of alcamy next turn. I gust really want to see what were actually going to be building with the tech (And it sould also help with rune metal wich another thing I want to do) especially sense i bet were going to need at least one full turn to finish rune U.
 
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