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I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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It would likely be in a side chain, like gromril chain for rune-metal, or elemental gronti for movement. It's just a matter of uncovering it.
That's likely a good argument for not overdoing it so much. 3 or 4 Prods rather than 6, if our immediate goal is a potential side chain being unlocked. On the chance that we unlock it with the next level and then overshooting that level by a wide margin while we jump ship to the side option.
 
2. We just chose Gronti for our Capstone and Minds doesn't provide any real benefit to Gronti's anymore while Deep Magic is all about studying the Master Rune of Waking and it's connection to Deep Magic.
3. I think the narrative synergy between completing the Armor research, the Forging of Skarrenbakraz, our study into Elgi Magic language and thus our greater understanding of the underlying mechanics of Magic is really strong and only gets stronger if we go all in on Deep Magic instead of splitting our attention.
For what's it's worth, I feel like these two points could include Mind of Things depending on one's perspective. For me, it's the tie in with Movement Part 5b, as well as Understanding the Armor. Those two things are tied to the main branch of Movement of Things, yet they also seem connected to Mind of Things.

Others have brought up Windsight through Mind of Things, but my real draw is what I've already outlined. Aside from that, even if none of these apply, I find myself favoring this course of action anyway. Just like with Rune Metal presumably needing Akazit, or Trasfiguration, in some form in order to expedite the process of creating Adamant and/or creating that next tier, I feel like there'll be something similar with Deep Magic. That we won't be able to just get all of the secrets by banging our head into that wall until it gives. So, why not invest those actions elsewhere if we'll need to get it done anyway?

I don't know if that's way off base for most people, but it's where I'm at.
 
Hey guys you know since the chaos dwarves are a dying race including with them just turning into a cult then their own nation it's pretty sure that if they don't get their own nation or hold they will die out from petrifying to stone due to them not supposed to be doing magic like that's an actual curse and thing in canon they will slowly turn to stone and they even needed power suits to help them move and when it became too much they removed it themselves and use tech to replace them
 
I'm not sure what Deep Magic/To War is doing with Anoqeyan tbh. Two actions+Yorri takes it to 4 actions remaining, which is just about the most awkward action threshold possible for our traits wrt turn planning.
Anoqeyan has 7 actions total.

We can get to those with either of:
3+2 = effective 5+3 = 8
1+2+2 = effective 1+3+3 = 7

We always spend five actions on it either way.
 
But with the Chainforger we had a rough idea what to start with and weren't toying with anything Dwarfs have pretty much no metaphysical connection to.

How do you start a side project when you have no idea how something works at an even basic level?

You're going into this pretty optimistic of our chances. Too optimistic if you ask me.

This is absurd.

'How do you try to understand how something works without already understanding how it works?'

The side chain would be researching and developing Windsight, likely springboarding from a base proof of concept that involves a rune combo amped via Fimir Mearach eyes.

That's likely a good argument for not overdoing it so much. 3 or 4 Prods rather than 6, if our immediate goal is a potential side chain being unlocked. On the chance that we unlock it with the next level and then overshooting that level by a wide margin while we jump ship to the side option.

The main benefit to mind of things is that it's essentially triple dipping - progress towards the full Rune of Brotherhood, memory storage/transference, the Master Rune of Kingship and potentially holocrons, on top of trying to uncover the Windsight side chain. The problem is we don't know exactly where the side chain would be - it could be 5b (and likely is, given how the narrative has been shaping up so far), or it could be 6b if Soulcake is feeling reticent. 6 Prods has a decent chance of finishing Part 5 outright, and if not puts it within easy touching distance.

Anoqeyan has 7 actions total.

We can get to those with either of:
3+2 = effective 5+3 = 8
1+2+2 = effective 1+3+3 = 7

We always spend five actions on it either way.

The latter of these is significantly easier to slot around other plans and action blocs, including major ones like Akazit, which people have been wanting to broach to a long time.
 
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I'm sorry but this is just staggering to me. Why isn't anyone doing Prod for Prod and The Road to Anoqeyån Pt. 2? They aren't mutually exclusive we can do both it'd just mean sacrificing another action like Mind of Things or Movement of Things for example in Xepheria's plan which is well worth the extra 3 prods in the long run.
 
I'm sorry but this is just staggering to me. Why isn't anyone doing Prod for Prod and The Road to Anoqeyån Pt. 2? They aren't mutually exclusive we can do both it'd just mean sacrificing another action like Mind of Things or Movement of Things for example in Xepheria's plan which is well worth the extra 3 prods in the long run.
I'll be honest it feels like it's been some time since we got a huge load of research done like these current plans want to do. I don't mind losing a little efficiency to get a large amount done here and now. Especially since it's going to be a while before we get the results due to the war turns.
 
Hi Ho, Hi Ho, its off to war we go!~

We'll be there to take names, cause localized storms, and chew bubblegum. But bubblegum hasn't even been invented yet!
 
Then you'll be happy to notice that mine does follow that. I am spending 2 actions after all :)

The issue comes from when you apply the single AP. In general, we don't like to leave single AP hanging during turn planning, barring exceptional circumstances like this turn (due to mass Prod spending), because it's massively wasteful for our traits, which usually require 2 or more actions invested. Going 2->(2+1) is actively worse than 1->(2+2), because it becomes very, very awkward to plan around and eats into the actions gained in other trees.
 
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I'll be honest it feels like it's been some time since we got a huge load of research done like these current plans want to do. I don't mind losing a little efficiency to get a large amount done here and now. Especially since it's going to be a while before we get the results due to the war turns.
...You get more research done with the action set I laid out than with the one presently laid out though. Unless you want to save the prods for some reason at least.
 
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[x] Plan: Deep War with Warding and Lions
[x] The March of Progress
- [x] March x1
- [x] Prod for Prod x1
- [x] [Difficult] Understanding the Armour x1
- [x] The Movement Of Things x2 + 9 Yorri Prods
- [x] The Throng is Mustered x1 retainer
- [x] Secure the Woods x1 retainer
- [x] Glimmering Steel x1 retainer
- [x] [Simple] A Wonderful Endeavour x1 heir
- [x] Petition the Hold x3 -45 favor
- [x] [Simple] Firebird's Feather x1 research

Will also vote for any plan that gives heathguard a banner.
 
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[X] Plan Research Explosion

We REALLY should send our retainers to inspect the Wardstones this turn since we skipped that last time. Also, do we have any idea how long the chain is for Movement of Things? I'd like to actually clear out some of our accumulated options, but new ones keep being added all the time. :cry:
 
This is absurd.

'How do you try to understand how something works without already understanding how it works?'

The side chain would be researching and developing Windsight, likely springboarding from a base proof of concept that involves a rune combo amped via Fimir Mearach eyes.
I don't think we have the tools necessary for that at the moment. You're asking a blind man to describe sight.

You're focussing on the mental connection part of a Windsight prosthetic when we don't even know anything about how the very specific magic part of the equation works. That's a seperate project alltogether and unlikely to be in "Mind of Things" path.
 
where is your plan again?
I just got back and noticed this so I don't have one. I have one now though.

[X] Plan A True Explosion
- [X] March: [Cost: 1 action] Begin event, "Fimir Campaign Pt. 1." Your body is healed, your fury roaring like the fires of a freshly stoked furnace. Let them know the anger of a Runelord roused to anger! Let them know the contempt of the wronged and that the Dwarfs shall never, never, allow a debt to remain unsettled if they can help it! [1AP]
- [X] The Road to Anoqeyån Pt. 2: [Cost: 6 actions] Master of the Odd will proc. Gain exceptional- understanding of Anoqeyån. Now that Menlinwen has taught you the very fundamentals of the Elven arcane language, she feels comfortable enough to begin teaching you to the same level she has reached. Going any further beyond this point requires waiting for Menlinwen to become an Archmage or for you to find one yourself. [1AP]
-- [X] Involve Yorri: [Cost +1 action] Gain x3 Yorri prods. Your Master would obviously love to continue learning as well.
- [X] [Difficult] Understanding the Armour: [Cost: (6 -5) =1 action] Master of the Odd will proc. Gain Movement of Things Progress, ???. You have absolutely no clue how and why Barak Azamar managed to drag whatever the Construct is from wherever it came from and seemingly bound it to your equipment. There's a mystery afoot, and you want to figure out why and how this happened before you can even begin thinking about the implications of what it all means. [1AP]
- [X] Prod for Prod: [Cost: 1 action] Gain x3 Yorri prods. Master Yorri is most certainly more learned and experienced than you are, but mayhaps you have something worth his time as well? You've taught a good amount, Adamant included, but there are still a few things Yorri himself is interested in. [1AP]
- [X] [Difficult] The Mind of Things Pt. 4: [Cost: (10 -6) =4 actions] Master of the Odd will proc. The transfer of sensation, taste, touch, smell, sight and sound. Yorri has made it clear that at its core all of these senses are simply the transfer of information from your body to your mind. And just as he no doubt intended, it's gotten you thinking. Thinking about perhaps using your newfound knowledge and applying it in a more general fashion. Like perhaps sharing memory or thoughts without any chance of miscommunication. You doubt it will be that easy of course, but you have to start from somewhere. [1AP] [12 Prods]
-- [X] Prod Yorri: [Cost 1 prod] Gain 1d2+1 progress, can be taken multiple times. Master Yorri simply chuckles mysteriously at you.
- [X] [Simple] Firebird's Feather: [Cost: (2 -1) =1 actions] Master of the Odd will proc. You've got a feather! Its an odd little piece of deep red flaming plumage that emanates a faint heat and sometimes combusts into flames that do no lasting damage to it. Transported at great expense, barely a dent in your coffers though, and with a few notes and tales about the animal in question that it came from. A simple enough task to figure out what this thing will do. There's a large body of work regarding the firebirds of the north already, and you can use that as a good starting point in your own research. [1 Research Action]
- [X] [Simple] A Wonderful Endeavour: [Cost: 24 actions] Minimum completion date end of Turn 52. Peerless Production will proc for general actions. You have begun pondering the meaning of legacy more often in your old age. To leave something behind to carry on long after you have entered the Halls of your Forebears. Your apprentices are your most important, yet the most limited in the grand scheme. The Runes and creations you create are less personal, but greater in scope and reach. This. This shall bridge that gap, take the best of both and make something beyond them. A place you can build and cultivate, one whose reach is so vast that the name Snorri Klausson will not merely be one of the Runelords of the Past, but a figure even the common Dwarf shall know many centuries, nay millennia, after you have died. This will define you in a way few other things have; more than the defeating of a great enemy, or the forging of a mighty item of power, it is to build something wondrous and in doing, irreversibly change everything forever. [0AP]
-- [X] Petition the Hold: [Cost: 15 Kraka Drakk Favour] Gain 1 progress, can only be taken 3 times a turn and without action input. Begin speaking with the King, the various Guilds and Clans in Kraka Drakk to contribute to the Workshop's construction. [45 Drakk Favour]
- [X] [Simple] Lion Autopsy: [Cost: 3 actions] Master of the Odd will proc. Even in death, you must admit there is a fierce beauty to the animal. Several of its organs lie preserved in magically enchanted jars, put there by the Hunter who slew the massive feline and part of the order itself. Though without the use of Runes who's to say about their freshness. Regardless, it's still worth investigating. [1 Karstah Action]
-- [X] Destructive Research: [Cost: 2 White Lion Corpses] Gain 1d2 progress, can be taken multiple times. You have enough corpses that you feel comfortable making a few unusable in the name of learning. [4 White Lion Corpses]
- [X] The Throng is Mustered: [Cost: 1 retainer action] Can be taken multiple times. Gain Bonus to Throng Rolls against Fimir, additional actions apply bonus to roll. Minor Chance for Casualties/Fatalities. The King of Kraka Drakk calls the Throng to war, lend the might of your Retainers to his cause. You have no real clue as to how developed the Fimir presence is, but given the corpse Rudil dragged back you have a feeling they've been here a while.
- [X] Scouting: [Cost: 1 retainer action] Gain minor bonus to Waystone rolls. Can be taken multiple times. Roll for usefulness, additional actions apply bonus to roll. Send out your Retainers, scour the Far North to see if there's some of these stones that Master Yorri Missed.
- [X] Waywarding: [Cost: 1 action or retainer action] Gain bonus to Waystone rolls and update on status of Waystones. Can be taken multiple times. There is no set time in which you or your retainers are meant to check on these stone monoliths, but doing so more regularly will mean that you're more likely to keep them safe and know their status.
- [X] ORDER: Write-in: 1x Frostbird Feather

More prods means more research done, and if that's for Mind of Things or Movement of Things I don't really care either way but I'll go for the latter for now unless people want it changed.
 
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It would honestly be both. Studying a Mearach eye might let us jury-rig Windsight on some existing runes, but that doesn't solve the problem of interpretation and interaction of an entirely foreign sense with the dwarven mind, nor does it give us an actual rune that does the job inherently, both of which are the purview of the Mind of Things.
And you intend to find out how an entirely different foreign sense works by looking at it through a traditional Dwarven lense how?

If something is unknown and foreign, then by definition it won't be in the standard research path. Especially since Dwarfs don't have any experience with Windsight.

To even know where to get started we'd need a Hag eye.
Simple: you use a Brana. ((Or an elf assistant I guess, but Brana are more present here and are deep allies.))

That is, you progress into Mind of Things, which gives you the ability to transfer experiences and senses. Then you make an item with that Rune. Then you give that item to a Brana.

The Brana has Windsense. Then you have the Brana transmit data and information to a Dwarf. And then you study that phenomenon.

It's a way to study the Winds of Magic and Windsight. A totally legit way.


Miraculously create a way for a Dwarf to see Windsight, giving an utterly strange and unnatural sense to a Dwarf and bang your head against understanding a foreign thing;
versus
Grant sense-sharing to somebody who has Windsight, and then bang your head against understanding it that way.


It's just a method that you probably were not expecting or seeing as valid because, well, 'Obviously it's not enough to just study the thing second-hand, you need to be able to grant a Dwarf the ability to see magic first in order to be able to properly start studying it!'

There's validity and risks to both approaches. The "Give a Dwarf windsight" risks the problem that even if it's via a prosthetic, the information intake might do weird or unpleasant stuff to a Dwarf mind anyway. The "borrow a Brana's senses" one risks the issue that a Dwarf might not like the feel of 'researching via second-hand' rather than being able to get precise and personal with things.

You could say that if you try to translate from a Brana, you might not be able to get the full experience. But the thing is, you can literally say that about the "give Windsight" issue too; because what if Windsight requires both the mutation to see the wind and the mutation or set of neural circuitry to make sense of what you see? i.e. If you just grant Windsight, you're still granting that to somebody who doesn't have the mental architecture or computer programs to be able to make sense or understand it.

(You're basically just hoping that you can just use Dwarf Mindset(TM) to be able to comprehend and make sense of the phenomenon.)

But you might get Sight without Comprehension.

Whereas, the "do Mind of Things, then use Brana assistance" might get you Comprehension. (But not Sight. :V)

Hence why it'd probably be a good thing to get both done.

But, well, you can see how a Dwarf could go down either of the two research trees. The Brana-assistant one might use the Brana's aid to be able to get understanding of magic and the Winds, and maybe be able to work out a way to develop Windsight-o-vision anyway in time. The Windsight-prosthetic one might eventually reason out some things about magic (it helps having magic books and an Elf tutor and Brana around... but that's still not a substitute for having a brain that can understand magic, like Elves and Brana have).
 
...You get more research done with the action set I laid out than what you're proposing though. Unless you want to save the prods for some reason at least.
Unless I'm miscounting (very possible, admittedly) If we want to March, finish checking our armour, learn language with Yorri and Prod for Prod that would mean forgoing research into Mind or Movement this turn.
 
The main benefit to mind of things is that it's essentially triple dipping - progress towards the full Rune of Brotherhood, memory storage/transference, the Master Rune of Kingship and potentially holocrons, on top of trying to uncover the Windsight side chain. The problem is we don't know exactly where the side chain would be - it could be 5b (and likely is, given how the narrative has been shaping up so far), or it could be 6b if Soulcake is feeling reticent. 6 Prods has a decent chance of finishing Part 5 outright, and if not puts it within easy touching distance.
I am absolutely certain that not only will we not get any of these from mind pt4, but that it will also lead to not getting any deep magic from movement either because it's locked behind at least pt 6. It's going to be mind pt5 if we get lucky or pt6 or 7 more likely. If it a side chain then we don't have anything useful to show for the next few projects to show for it.
 
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