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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Alratan said:
Actually, for those saying that we should just take Yori's advice, remember the vote about the Rune of Featherlight, when the very concept of expressing an opinion about what Dolgi should do was strongly rejected as fundamentally wrong.

This is worse. Snorri is a runelord. He's taken on the duty to have an opinion about such things. Yori, by electing to stay a Master Runesmith rather than take on the additional responsibilities of being a runelord has not.

He's also criticising the members of an institution for not remaining prisoners of its design. Institutions evolving to serve new functions is desirable. The burudin, being an avenue through which politics happens, may actually be a good be a good thing for the guild, as it provides a forum through which such disputes can be safely resolved and conflicts defused.

If the Burudin as a shadow governance* forum for the wider guild didn't exist, it may have needed to be invented.

* not in the sense of a government, but as an institution through which the powers within the guild can get to know each other and interact directly and privately rather than risking conflict between the more junior runesmiths they influence.
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A forum in which disputes resolved and conflicts defused does not require what it has become, which fundamentally has the issue that age is the key assumed marker of skill and with that also political influence (because age equals political influence). Skill and age have become inextricably linked, when from the text of the update itself that wasn't Durin's intent.

So no, I disagree that what the Burudin has become is a good thing. Disputes resolved, forum for communication yes. Gatekeeping the younger voices who may be as skilled as the older members? No, that's not good.
 
BungieONI said:
A forum in which disputes resolved and conflicts defused does not require what it has become, which fundamentally has the issue that age is the key assumed marker of skill and with that also political influence (because age equals political influence). Skill and age have become inextricably linked, when from the text of the update itself that wasn't Durin's intent.

So no, I disagree that what the Burudin has become is a good thing. Disputes resolved, forum for communication yes. Gatekeeping the younger voices who may be as skilled as the older members? No, that's not good.
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All of dwarven society is a gerontocracy, not a meritocracy. How skilled someone is, above the threshold required for promotion, isn't hugely relevant, as the old have had time to accrue that much more soft power in the form of favours, influence, wealth, and infrastructure. The Burudin is a mechanism by which those incredibly influential runelords can resolve potential disputes. That is a good thing. It doesn't matter that very skilled but much less powerful runesmiths have less of a voice, because if they get into conflict they can cause much less damage.

It's become a political institution, not an academic one. That is not a problem. It is a good thing. Societies need political institutions to mediate disputes.

Bringing in less powerful runesmiths would dilute its effectiveness.
 
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Alratan said:
I think if that was going to happen it would have already, as what Yori is objecting to is basically being a runelord with responsibilities to guide dwarven and runesmith society rather than staying as a master runesmith who can focus on crafting and research full time.
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Alric Thungison has personally asked Yorri, several times, to be a runelord.

Yorri said no not because he wants to research full time - It's because he personally considers himself the reason Durin died, and thus can never be worthy of the position.

Edit: Like, Did the obscenely ludicrous amount of survivors guilt the Dwarf feels pass you by?
 
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Alratan said:
Interestingly, it sounds like we may really want there to be a Far Northern Burudin member to give 'air cover' to the local runesmiths who are otherwise more vulnerable to a Burudin in another hold getting in a snit and blackballing them, which Snorri as a Burudun member would serve as a deterrent to prevent escalation or an avenue of negotiation to calm a dispute.
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It sounds a bit like a chicken and the egg situation though, in the same way the Burudin's repuation is. Do members of the Burudin have the influence they do and the ability to effectively blacklist people because they are members of the Burudin? Or do they have that influence and ability by virtue of being the most skilled Runelord of their hold, which caused them to be invited to the Burudin?

I'm asking because if it is the latter situation, where most of a Burudin member's blacklisting ability comes from their skill and hold-wide influence, then I don't see how Snorri's membership would provide a major difference in the amount of cover he provides to local runesmiths. If Snorri was made aware that a Burudin member was messing with Kraka Drak runesmiths, and Snorri had never been given the offer to join, I think Snorri, as a millennial runelord would be able to show a similar level of his own displeasure regardless of his non-membership.
 
Alratan said:
The Burudin don't allow or disallow anything. It's a talking shop, not a new boss.
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Do you really think they can't toss out members? Or make life difficult for members who go against the wishes of the greater organization?

If Snorri wasn't already charting the first steps of something new, then joining them would be worthwhile for the connections if nothing else. But given what we are creating, the end results are either we get ejected to preserve the peace of the organization or we cause an acrimonious split within it over the College of Runecraft we've founded. In both cases we end up worse than where we started, because we'll have actively pissed off a lot of people instead of staying aloof.
 
Alratan said:
I think if that was going to happen it would have already, as what Yori is objecting to is basically being a runelord with responsibilities to guide dwarven and runesmith society rather than staying as a master runesmith who can focus on crafting and research full time.

Yori made the decision to stay a master runesmith. Snorri decided to accept the promotion and the duties that came with it. That die is cast.
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If what was going to happen?

What you quote has me saying that it might be more difficult in the future to develop the relationship with Yorri further (and I was careful to say 'harder'), that's not exactly something that can 'have already' happened if it's about the ongoing future relationship. Dawi relationships continue shifting and changing over time just like human ones do.
 
[X] [Home:] Reject
- [X] Find new accommodations

[x] [Burudin:] Yes

The3rdCorinthian said:
It's because [Yorri] personally considers himself the reason Durin died, and thus can never be worthy of the position.
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when was that? I'm not following the thread very closely (especially the discussion between updates), so I likely missed something
 
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It does sound like Durin got it right the second time around with the brotherhood. I suppose Snorri could say screw it, I'll take my brotherhood bros instead.

For the record, Snorri is going to have Alric on his side to begin with since he's the one who probably pushed the invite in the first place. Gotri is probably chill with him as well so it's not like he'll have no support. Like any Runelord of equal standing with Snorri won't have enough pull to do anything since Snorri has literally an entire region to push back with and Thungni's direct children are probably supporting him or indifferent.
 
so we are possibly seeing a new sub species of Brana that may start adapting for the ground or underground instead of the sky?
 
baud said:
when was that? I'm not following the thread very closely (especially the discussion between updates), so I likely missed something
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Update after Skarbakaramarana's forging, and said forging itself. Invisitext shows that Yorris mentor, implied to be Durin (It's past midnight, to tired to give a full rundown there), died in a similar experiment involving magic, and Yorri feels that Snorri must be blaming him for his condition.

Like I said - Survivors guilt up the Wazoo.
 
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With that said, I think we should actually reject the Masters and stuff who live in their vaults, but build the structures of the hypothetical college somewhere in Okraz. I don't want to stop that particular possibility, and I do not think reject actually means that path will be closed. Additionally, building in Okraz helps the wider Kraka Drakk metropole and regional kingdom in a way we haven't done in a while, which I think sounds fun.

Now understandably, putting them up in the workshop would be pretty funny.

Snorri is going to receive visitors regardless, for exactly the reasons Rudil said and even other reasons like deeds or fame. With Snorri now training Karstah and being taught by Yorri, I think its worth it to put down a line of separation between Snorri's personal work and this work that he shares. Here is a good line I think, because either way, no one is harmed and people are still taught.

In terms of the Burudin option, I think Joining it would be wise, for the explicit reason of Angkra. She is The Armorsmith, and I think getting a foot in the door to have discussions with the old lass would be awesome for both Snorri and Karstah, who has Armor specialties. Thinking of both Snorri and Karstah, the two could benefit from such contact. And, more than that, we do have time to put things in and get things out of it. Not this century, but thenext one, absolutely, especially at the coming Rhunkalbrogg.

We don't necessarily need to dump actions in to meet them outside of the Rune Meets, and it frankly might be more convenient to make use of those for such meetings with the Burudin. Have everyone together so we can actually talk to everyone. Alric, Gottri, Angkra are viable allies in the organization and could very well be worth talking to because they are literally the experts of their fields.


[X] [Home:] Reject
- [X] Find new accommodations: In removing one problem, that being the overcrowding of your home, you have created another. Perhaps it is no concern of yours, but you will do what you can to find a way to house them now that squatting in your home is no longer an option. Unlocks further options.

[x] [Burudin:] Yes:
 
[x] [Burudin:] Yes
This has too many advantages to walk away from on a "because I say so".
If the Burudin really end up being distasteful, we can always leave.
Not something typically done, sure, but (probably) not forbidden, and Snorri has never been afraid of getting odd looks.
 
[X] [Home:] Reject
- [X] Find new accommodations: In removing one problem, that being the overcrowding of your home, you have created another. Perhaps it is no concern of yours, but you will do what you can to find a way to house them now that squatting in your home is no longer an option. Unlocks further options.
 
The3rdCorinthian said:
Update after Skarbakaramarana's forging, and said forging itself. Invisitext shows that Yorris mentor, implied to be Durin (It's past midnight, to tired to give a full rundown there), died in a similar experiment involving magic, and Yorri feels that Snorri must be blaming him for his condition.

Like I said - Survivors guilt up the Wazoo.
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thanks. I had missed that in the update
 
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The3rdCorinthian said:
Alric Thungison has personally asked Yorri, several times, to be a runelord.

Yorri said no not because he wants to research full time - It's because he personally considers himself the reason Durin died, and thus can never be worthy of the position.

Edit: Like, Did the obscenely ludicrous amount of survivors guilt the Dwarf feels pass you by?
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Yes. Alric asked. Yori said no. That's the point. He's rejecting the concept of exercising political influence. Why he's doing it frankly doesn't matter, but whatever those reasons are are the same for why he can't see the value in the Burudin as it is now. Snorri has already accepted the hob and the duties that come with it.

SurpriseMe said:
It sounds a bit like a chicken and the egg situation though, in the same way the Burudin's repuation is. Do members of the Burudin have the influence they do and the ability to effectively blacklist people because they are members of the Burudin? Or do they have that influence and ability by virtue of being the most skilled Runelord of their hold, which caused them to be invited to the Burudin?

I'm asking because if it is the latter situation, where most of a Burudin member's blacklisting ability comes from their skill and hold-wide influence, then I don't see how Snorri's membership would provide a major difference in the amount of cover he provides to local runesmiths. If Snorri was made aware that a Burudin member was messing with Kraka Drak runesmiths, and Snorri had never been given the offer to join, I think Snorri, as a millennial runelord would be able to show a similar level of his own displeasure regardless of his non-membership.
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Being a Burudin, to me, basically puts you on the right mailing list so you're part of the conversation in which such issues can be privately resolved rather than having factions of more junior runesmiths entering semi-open conflict.

The Sandman said:
Do you really think they can't toss out members? Or make life difficult for members who go against the wishes of the greater organization?

If Snorri wasn't already charting the first steps of something new, then joining them would be worthwhile for the connections if nothing else. But given what we are creating, the end results are either we get ejected to preserve the peace of the organization or we cause an acrimonious split within it over the College of Runecraft we've founded. In both cases we end up worse than where we started, because we'll have actively pissed off a lot of people instead of staying aloof.
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Yes, because if you toss them you have to admit you made a mistake in admitting them, and a dwarf institution would pretty much never do that save in the most extreme circumstances (and I'm talking chaos worship here). I think all his will do is give extra social options and backchannels of communication.#

CuttleFish2.0 said:
If what was going to happen?

What you quote has me saying that it might be more difficult in the future to develop the relationship with Yorri further (and I was careful to say 'harder'), that's not exactly something that can 'have already' happened if it's about the ongoing future relationship. Dawi relationships continue shifting and changing over time just like human ones do.
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If Yori was going to object. Just as Snorri hasn't changed his opinion of Dolgi for not releasing the Rune of Featherweight, I very strongly doubt Yori will change his opinion of Snorri any more than he did when Snorri became a Runelord.
 
The real reason to join the Burudin is eventually some other Runelord around these parts will join and they probably won't have a clue what they are getting into. The Burudin is not staying out of our business forever, and when groups within inevitably start pushing us, it would behoove us to be equipped to push back.
 
LysanderArgent said:
I will note political institutions can become corrupt over time. So becoming a political institution isn't necessarily a good thing.
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And Yori's objection doesn't seem to be that it's become corrupt, but that it's become political. And if we're worried about it being or becoming corrupt, being on the inside and so knowing what it's actually doing is the way to address it.
 
I dislike "elite" groups forming within larger, more open structures and rendering them powerless, because decisions have already been made.

The larger cult of thrungi is the appropriate place for socializing and politicking, not a self-selected elite within it.

[X] [Home:] Reject
- [X] Find new accommodations
[X] [Burudin:] No
 
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