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RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

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Discord.

On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)
 
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Tobtorp said:
I do think joining the Burundi would make it easier to change the institutions of runesmithing from within. We don't need to be a revolutionary, we can be a reformer.
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We don't need to be a revolutionary, we currently aren't after all. All we need to do is keep doing our thing, not breaking any guild rules and let our success speak for itself.
 
TempestK said:
Wut? I was talking about politics. If you join a high-visibility group like that, you are going to be pressured to toe the line, one way or another, to make the group look like a cohesive whole.
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But like, we know their not united? Like, snorri literally talks about how the Burundi are never the same opinion and that it would take actual threats from outside to unite them. If snorri (who lives in the ass end of nowhere for dwarf sensibilities) knows this most others know it too.
Rukia said:
We don't need to be a revolutionary, we currently aren't after all. All we need to do is keep doing our thing, not breaking any guild rules and let our success speak for itself.
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And that works for the north. Yes we get some southern runesmiths but the vast majority is in the south proper and does not see a reason why they should change.
 
>Dawi flying on a Brana's back
...Hunh. A tad surprised no one tried that before, though...No, there's no need to say that- but it's not even the right province! Seriou-
ELGI FOOLISHNESS!
DAWI BELONG ON THE GROUND, OR BETTER YET, UNDER IT!

Okay, that aside.

I can't help but imagine Snorri calling that construct Mhorni aloud but once, then there's Yorri, right in the corner of his eye, slowly smiling as much as his face will allow, before just vanishing again.
And then the POCKET TOUNGE!

[X] [Burudin:] No:
...This sounds mostly like political gain but uhh.
We Da Gift-Giver. We can totes spurn them, if that's how a refusal would be taken. And frankly if they're as close-knit as Yorri says refusing to go along with the party line will be worse then if we outright said no. And if they're NOT that united and controlling, I don't really see the gain for Snorri.
...I don't see the gain even if they both are AND are willing to be perfectly nice to Snorri, either. And both would make me suspicious as all get out. Nope, noooo.

[x] [Home:] Embrace
*crosses arms*
...On the one hand...Knowledge for all, instead of merely the approved. No great losses, no Kragg having to risk his life for the hint of but a page of a Runelord's work, millenia down the line...
But on the other hand...Karag Dum...And worse...Because that WILL get worse...
But then again, how did they put it? 'Where were the Ancestors when we needed them!'
So...Where was the Gift-Giver, when those foolish beardlings need a hand?
Right here, extending a hand. So that the likes of those who darkened the name of Karag Dum can be buried in memory alone, and forgotten.
 
Tobtorp said:
On the other hand he also didn't want us to help with the waystones and that one is of monumental importance. Yorri is wise, but he's also set in his way and scarred by his experiences. Should that stop us from doing it our way just because he's not OK with it? Or at least seeing what there is that he's so against?
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Yes and? That was almost certainly due to his experience with the Burudin. Which we are dealing with right now. Snorri even pointed out how the Burudin can use their influence negatively.

There are also all of thos theories theorizing that Yorri's Master was Durin the Lost himself. So from both in character and out of character I am inclined to believe him.

And to provide an argument against embracing. This is our home. We shared it with Karstah as a symbol of our relationship with her, that she is our heir. If other Runesmiths want to learn from us, it is perfectly possible to create lodging for them outside of our home.
 
That bonus progress to understanding the armour has done some funky things to the prospective plan for the upcoming turn - which was to knock out the rest of it and a bunch of other research with liberal usage of prods:

[] Turn 47 Plan Framework
-[ ] [Difficult] Understanding the Armour: [Cost 1 actions] Master of the Odd will proc. Gain Movement of Things Progress, ???. You have absolutely no clue how and why Barak Azamar managed to drag whatever the Construct is from wherever it came from and seemingly bound it to your equipment. There's a mystery afoot, and you want to figure out why and how this happened before you can even begin thinking about the implications of what it all means. [1 AP]
-[ ] [Difficult] The Movement of Things Pt. 5, new totals: [Cost: (14 -7) =7 actions] Master of the Odd will proc. Energy, energy, energy. All Runes require it, such is the basis of their existence. You know that most Runes likely draw upon the Winds of Magic. But you also know that the Deep Magic, the power of the Earth, is a truly massive wellspring of energy, if one reaches deep enough that is. You have taken the first tentative steps to using it, but want to see, to truly understand that flow, and hopefully one day control it as easily as you could your hammer. [1 AP]
-- [ ] Prod Yorri: [Cost: 1 prod] Gain 1d2+1 progress, can be taken multiple times. [3 Prods]
-[ ] [Difficult] The Mind of Things Pt. 4: [Cost: (10 -6) =4 actions] Master of the Odd will proc. The transfer of sensation, taste, touch, smell, sight and sound. Yorri has made it clear that at its core all of these senses are simply the transfer of information from your body to your mind. And just as he no doubt intended, it's gotten you thinking. Thinking about perhaps using your newfound knowledge and applying it in a more general fashion. Like perhaps sharing memory or thoughts without any chance of miscommunication. You doubt it will be that easy of course, but you have to start from somewhere.
-- [ ] Prod Yorri: [Cost 1 prod] Gain 1d2+1 progress, can be taken multiple times. [2 Prods]
-[ ] War with the Fimir, baby. [1AP]

Because of the bonus +2 to understanding the armour, it only needs 1 AP to finish, rather than the 2 we thought it would need in turn 46. This essentially means we have 1 AP, 1 Prod, 1 Research action floating to crack through something extra, which is nice. Unfortunately, we can't use the research action on difficult research, or I'd suggest dropping everything on wardstones, and we won't have a Fimir eye until after the war turns, which nixes that idea. There is always the option of gambling on Mind of Things with 1 Prod (50% chance of success), but that's really not ideal - the safe option would be firebird feathers + white lion autopsy, but it's... a little mundane. Fingers crossed for some extra prod options next turn.
 
[x] [Burudin:] No:

It's more important to daiji ni our father figure than to enter politics. We trust him to teach us incredibly dangerous runes and whatnot, but not to warn us off dangers that he has experienced firsthand?
Besides, if they reaaally want us, then they'll ask again in the future. All we really gain is prestige and political heft. Is that worth alienating yet another of our remaining family? I thought we literally just made this decision with Karstah
 
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Zaealix said:
*crosses arms*
...On the one hand...Knowledge for all, instead of merely the approved. No great losses, no Kragg having to risk his life for the hint of but a page of a Runelord's work, millenia down the line...
But on the other hand...Karag Dum...And worse...Because that WILL get worse...
But then again, how did they put it? 'Where were the Ancestors when we needed them!'
So...Where was the Gift-Giver, when those foolish beardlings need a hand?
Right here, extending a hand. So that the likes of those who darkened the name of Karag Dum can be buried in memory alone, and forgotten.
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None of this is relevant to lodging them inside of our workshop in the least.

And Snorri isn't going to be giving his knowledge to the unworthy. It's about whether we want them living in our house or not while they learn the Chainforger, prosthetics, and Valaya's basket runes. Just this turn Karstah has decided to permanently live in our home. Must we cheapen that?
 
Only way to uphold standards and hold people in power to account is to use the system. I'd say join them.

[X] [Home:] Reject
-[X] Find new accommodations
[X] [Burudin:] Yes
 
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MrHobbit said:
Yes and? That was almost certainly due to his experience with the Burudin. Which we are dealing with right now. Snorri even pointed out how the Burudin can use their influence negatively.
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And it's a decision blinded by his experience. Imagine if we had listened to yorri about the waystones and not accepted. We would have no idea that the fimir are using them, and that we need to protect them. It's a objectively bad decision on his part which stem from his bad experiences. I don't blame him but it is what it is.
Xepheria said:
That bonus progress to understanding the armour has done some funky things to the prospective plan for the upcoming turn - which was to knock out the rest of it and a bunch of other research with liberal usage of prods:

[] Turn 47 Plan Framework
-[ ] [Difficult] Understanding the Armour: [Cost 1 actions] Master of the Odd will proc. Gain Movement of Things Progress, ???. You have absolutely no clue how and why Barak Azamar managed to drag whatever the Construct is from wherever it came from and seemingly bound it to your equipment. There's a mystery afoot, and you want to figure out why and how this happened before you can even begin thinking about the implications of what it all means. [1 AP]
-[ ] [Difficult] The Movement of Things Pt. 5, new totals: [Cost: (14 -7) =7 actions] Master of the Odd will proc. Energy, energy, energy. All Runes require it, such is the basis of their existence. You know that most Runes likely draw upon the Winds of Magic. But you also know that the Deep Magic, the power of the Earth, is a truly massive wellspring of energy, if one reaches deep enough that is. You have taken the first tentative steps to using it, but want to see, to truly understand that flow, and hopefully one day control it as easily as you could your hammer. [1 AP]
-- [ ] Prod Yorri: [Cost: 1 prod] Gain 1d2+1 progress, can be taken multiple times. [3 Prods]
-[ ] [Difficult] The Mind of Things Pt. 4: [Cost: (10 -6) =4 actions] Master of the Odd will proc. The transfer of sensation, taste, touch, smell, sight and sound. Yorri has made it clear that at its core all of these senses are simply the transfer of information from your body to your mind. And just as he no doubt intended, it's gotten you thinking. Thinking about perhaps using your newfound knowledge and applying it in a more general fashion. Like perhaps sharing memory or thoughts without any chance of miscommunication. You doubt it will be that easy of course, but you have to start from somewhere.
-- [ ] Prod Yorri: [Cost 1 prod] Gain 1d2+1 progress, can be taken multiple times. [2 Prods]
-[ ] War with the Fimir, baby. [1AP]

Because of the bonus +2 to understanding the armour, it only needs 1 AP to finish, rather than the 2 we thought it would need in turn 46. This essentially means we have 1 AP, 1 Prod, 1 Research action floating to crack through something extra, which is nice. Unfortunately, we can't use the research action on difficult research, or I'd suggest dropping everything on wardstones, and we won't have a Fimir eye until after the war turns, which nixes that idea. There is always the option of gambling on Mind of Things with 1 Prod (50% chance of success), but that's really not ideal - the safe option would be firebird feathers + white lion autopsy, but it's... a little mundane. Fingers crossed for some extra prod options next turn.
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Could we not stick the action into rune metal 5? Might work nicely together with alchemy...
 
The Burudin being a secret dwarven organization, they almost certainly swear Oaths to the effect of not only keeping its secrets but also following whatever internal rules it has. So if we go in and then dislike said internal rules our options to make our own way will be limited.
 
[X] [Home:] Reject
- [X] Find new accommodations
MrHobbit said:
None of this is relevant to lodging them inside of our workshop in the least.

And Snorri isn't going to be giving his knowledge to the unworthy. It's about whether we want them living in our house or not while they learn the Chainforger, prosthetics, and Valaya's basket runes. Just this turn Karstah has decided to permanently live in our home. Must we cheapen that?
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I never claimed to be set on this decision.
Not changing my mind about the Burudin though. Frankly that seems like a bad time no matter what.
 
065tdsa said:
The Burudin being a secret dwarven organization, they almost certainly swear Oaths to the effect of not only keeping its secrets but also following whatever internal rules it has. So if we go in and then dislike said internal rules our options to make our own way will be limited.
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I rather feel soulcake would tell us if there are Oaths and rules to follow that we don't know of.
Or better yet, we ask him @soulcake do we know if the Burundi have Oaths about following their rules (and I don't mean the secrecy ones, those make sense)?
 
HanEmpire said:
Could the Embrace option lead to the creation of an Institution of Learning for Runecraft? Instead of a Guild-based apprenticeship, we could pioneer a University system that cranks out graduates by the hundreds.
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If it did end up like that it would be an older model, rather than a comprehensive education system we are more familiar with.

For example: there are dorms (need a place to sleep/put your stuff), workshops/labs (need to do the actual stuff), and classes/trails from different masters (Snorri offers trails for prosthetics or the runes we got from Valaya). A place for journeymen to learn, or specialized stuff for masters. We wouldn't touch anyone on the apprentice level. Given we have 5 Runelords in the hold if they start doing trials a unified place might be pretty useful.

[X] [Home:] Embrace
[X] [Burudin:] No

I don't like the idea of joining much. Politics that will then eat up AP is very unattractive. Snorri's place isn't really a house anymore really, but a complex. It seems in character to just make some dorm rooms and stick them there instead of kicking them out. We can use dorms for visitors or retainers if need be, which I count as a bonus. If I understand correctly we would effectively make a guest housing rather than let them all camp on Snorri's couch.
 
Rukia said:
This opinion should be compared to the state of the Dawi in the canon timeline, who didn't change their traditions at all. They are a dying race barely holding on from the edge of extinction. Certainly, there is risk in causing discordance in Dawi society, but the society as it is is not prepared for the future that awaits them. It is likely that the Ancestors would have made the changes themselves if they were still around to do it, but alas by that time they were not.
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We are not in canon. We will probably not live to see canon. Bemoaning the solutions of today because they can cause problems thousands of years into the future based off what we know means we might as well bemoan the industrial revolution so many of us are fond of.

Moreover, we literally can't prove our methods would work better in the event of catastrophic collapse, mass die off, collapse of trade, and population decline. If anything, history suggests that centers of learning are more prone to collapsing into more primitive apprenticeships and guild systems whenever the going gets tough. In this hypothetical example, our university would falter as increasing amounts of journeymen and smiths go out to fight and die, as resources to practice the craft dwindles, and the cost to become educated as such becomes commensurately more expensive.

Full stop. Nothing we do can create a cataclysm immune society, many of the things to optimize now would arguably create a less robust society if followed through their logical conclusion.

Edit: Miraculously we have butterflied away the greatest schism in the history of Dwarfs. Saying we must now embrace schism for the sake of the future when we have no idea the lives and wealth such a schism could cost seems a tad arrogant. All of us are modern people who have no real truck with medieval modes of organization. But these modes of organization existed for a reason alongside the organization of their society. And we are inextricably a feudal society. A quixotic war against that might do far more harm than good.
 
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[X] [Burudin:] Yes
[X] [Home:] Embrace

I'm down to cause maximum chaos and headaches for the stuffy old timers in the Runesmith's Guild by simultaneously instituting what is effectively a runesmith university while simultaneously joining the Burudin, the most respected order of runelords in the entire Karaz Ankor. It's both funny, and very Snorri, with migraines for everyone else. I think Yorri's account is incredibly biased due to his own personal hangups, and absolutely should not be taken as verbatim in this instance - my dude isn't even a regular participant in society because of them, and rejects the position of Runelord entirely.

Increased access to rune trades, the ability to open up contact with some of the most learned Runelords in the world - these things shouldn't be discarded as hastily as people seem to be. We're good, yes - we wouldn't have received an invitation otherwise - but we are nowhere near the best, and frankly our rune list is incredibly anemic for a Runelord of our age. There's always more to learn, and we can learn a lot from the likes of Alric Thungnisson and his peers.
 
@tri2 @TheBigMole @Ptolemy03 You didn't format your vote properly. It has to include the whole description for it to be counted with the other Find New Accommodations votes.

@Raeyx you didn't include a subvote for Reject, so we don't know if you want to find them new accommodations or let them do it on their own. If you don't mind either way, I would recommend putting both of them down.

Tobtorp said:
And it's a decision blinded by his experience. Imagine if we had listened to yorri about the waystones and not accepted. We would have no idea that the fimir are using them, and that we need to protect them. It's a objectively bad decision on his part which stem from his bad experiences. I don't blame him but it is what it is.
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His experience would be quite relevant to this particular decision. There is nothing to indicate that the Burudin have anything all that special to offer us that we need.

I would expect revealing new opinions, perhaps even Alric's, and new commissions. While that sort of stuff can be valuable... eh. The Brotherhood seems to be much friendlier.
 
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