Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Inferno Vulpix · Dec 10, 2021

[X] Ami Plan: When in Doubt, Go Meta

Noumero said:
Subject: Hypothetically, if Mari were to endanger Kei in a way that Kei considers unforgivable, how should you describe the situation to Ami to minimize the chance of Mari's destruction?

I wonder if this should maybe be abstracted a bit more. If the point is that we don't know how she'll react to various approaches, it seems odd to start with what's essentially Door-In-Face.

There's no way to convey enough information to Ami without her figuring out the general thrust of things, but I think we can do a better job of keeping her initial emotional reaction tainted with uncertainty until we know what the best approach is.

So how about: "Suppose there was news I needed to tell you that might induce anger and counterproductive desires. How should I describe the situation to minimize such outcomes?" or something along those lines.

It'll be obvious to Ami that this has to do with Kei, that and the fact that we think she's likely to be angry will be enough to ratchet up the tension, but she won't have the basic throughline of 'Mari endangered Kei in a way that Kei considers unforgivable' needed to stir up the thoughts of righteous vengeance we're trying to dissuade her from.

Generally speaking, I think it's suboptimal to give Ami everything she needs to be tangibly outraged with a specific target before getting her input and deciding on a strategy.

Velorien · Dec 10, 2021

Noumero said:
List the sanctions you'd take against Ami should she push,

What are these sanctions?

MrRobot said:
Trowing crippled Vets at orochimaru so he doesn't kidnap able bodied ninja.

I first saw "throw Vel at Orochimaru" and started wondering whether I'd finally gone too far.

Lord Marshal · Dec 10, 2021

Noumero said:
Does this work?:

I don't know how the "Follow previous plan" thing work, but would maybe it better to link to it in the plan for EJ, in case he does an update? I'm not sure if we'll get a Velorien update, a EJ update + Velorien scene or a EJ update + Velorien Bonus update and so on, but at least this way EJ would have something to write about if he so decides.

[x] Ami Plan: When in Doubt, Go Meta

Sentient Tree · Dec 10, 2021

[X] Action Plan: Talking

This feels like it treats Ami as another adult who wants what's best for Kei and whose opinion on Kei matters we strongly respect, instead of a fey being whose anger we can possibly avoid by trapping her in the right legal/logical conundrum.

Regardless of which perspective of her is actually correct, this one just feels a lot better to me.

_The_Bomb · Dec 10, 2021

Ami is going to see through any manipulation we make. The only way forward is to be completely transparent and try to genuinely convince her. @Noumero, the "advice for a hypothetical situation" only works if Ami is willing to play along. She probably won't be. Not for this. There is an important distinction between something being fun to write and something being a good plan, and you're missing it. The best approach is to make our own case based on what Ami has said and done in the past, not based on advice we may not get about how we should convince her. (Side note: we should ask directly about that in the future, for next time).

I looked through some old quotes of hers and found some good lines about Orochimaru. There's also some important bits in there about how highly she values controlling herself. Together, they make a pretty good argument.

Velorien said:
Mori laughed lightly. "You realise that if I say yes, that's grounds for execution, or exile and Mist-style interrogation, right? Anyway, no. Same reason I didn't make a bid for Mizukage, unremarkable combat skills aside. I live for control, freedom, and fun. No one gets to take those away, not even myself. Also..."

Her voice instantly became ice.

"They came this close to killing Keiko. I will wipe Rock off the face of the earth before I let them finish what they started here."

Hazō shivered despite himself.

"Orochimaru, though," Mori said perkily. "Ouch. That blindsided me like a chakra megalodon hitting a dinghy. Lucky you kept him occupied long enough for me to figure out countermeasures, because it would've been a toss-up between death and enslavement, and those are two things I'm not big on, though obviously I'd make an exception for the Tsuchikage."

Images flickered through Hazō's head, then urgently unflickered.

"Are you serious?"

"Deadly." Mori's expression shifted into something different still. Her shadow on the wall stopped flickering. "Being valuable can be a liability when the strong see you as prey. You will not be left alone. Threats must be eliminated. Resources must be exploited. Free will counts for nothing in the face of true power. If that power judges you valuable, it is useless to run. It is ineffective to hide. It is hopeless to fight. All you can do is bargain, and hope that the other is inclined to listen. The weak can only win using the cunning that the strong had no need to learn."

Hazō shivered some more. If that was how Mori, a jōnin who danced circles around Kage, saw Orochimaru… what did that say about his own approach?

"What did you do?" he asked anxiously.

"I improvised like my life depended on it, which, you know, it did. Just so you're aware, if Keiko ever pushes herself as far as I did, she will die, so I wouldn't get your hopes up on that end."

Velorien said:
"You're wrong," Hazō said with absolute, unquestionable confidence. "I've met Orochimaru. You were there. He does not negotiate. Even you couldn't have turned him for real."

"Hey, I had whole minutes to come up with this plan," Mori said. "It's foolproof. The trick to dealing with somebody who already has everything they want is to get them to want something new. Also, Tsunade and Orochimaru are surprisingly similar when you talk to them, and you can deal with them practically the same way. Except the part where Tsunade makes you feel like you're one misstep away from a violent death, while Orochimaru makes you feel like you've already taken it."

Velorien said:
Mori laughed lightly. "You realise that if I say yes, that's grounds for execution, or exile and Mist-style interrogation, right? Anyway, no. Same reason I didn't make a bid for Mizukage, unremarkable combat skills aside. I live for control, freedom, and fun. No one gets to take those away, not even myself. Also..."

Velorien said:
"I want control," Hazō said eventually. "Everyone's scared that something will come and take me over, and I want to make sure that doesn't happen. I can't predict all the implications, and it seems like some of them happen without me knowing, but I want my will to be the deciding factor in what happens to me, not someone or something else's arbitrary decision."

"Good," Mori said. "Nothing is more important than control.

Velorien said:
"It does not," she said in a voice with no room for debate. "The will of the individual is a helpless, pitiful thing in the face of the will of society. For all our personal desires, we are moved by currents so vast we may not even register them, much less conceive of the possibility of resistance. This is the truth of statistics, as taught to every Mori. Everything we consider meaningful as individuals dissolves into the will of the aggregate. It is mindless, and so has no agency. We are helpless before it, and so neither do we.

"I refuse to allow this to be true.

"I have the experience of agency. I have defied the currents countless times, whether of necessity or of choice. I will not accept anything that denies my agency, be it the will of society, or humanity, or the world itself. I will not accept an ending chosen for me by something greater. There is no ending desired by all of humanity—not for as long as I am part of it."

"There you have it," Hazō said with a proud smile. "When it comes down to it, we don't particularly care what humanity wants. We're not under any obligation to listen to it just because it's feeling self-destructive. Uplift is about what humanity needs, and we've decided that it needs the same things any given human needs: agency, equal opportunity, and, in the end, happiness."

"Control, freedom, and fun," Ami muttered.

I'll have revisions up shortly.

MrRobot · Dec 10, 2021

Velorien said:
"throw Vel at Orochimaru"

I can hate Orochimaru but he doesn't really deserve death the Eldrich WMD that is you

Noumero · Dec 10, 2021

Lord Marshal said:
I don't know how the "Follow previous plan" thing work, but would maybe it better to link to it in the plan for EJ, in case he does an update? I'm not sure if we'll get a Velorien update, a EJ update + Velorien scene or a EJ update + Velorien Bonus update and so on, but at least this way EJ would have something to write about if he so decides.

Maybe we just vote for two plans separately, marking whom each vote is intended for? Like:

[x] EJ: Continue Previous Plan

It'd be unwieldy to make everyone change the extant votes, though, so maybe the plans without "EJ" should default to going to Velorien. @eaglejarl, @Velorien, you want to formalize it or something?

Inferno Vulpix said:
So how about: "Suppose there was news I needed to tell you that might induce anger and counterproductive desires. How should I describe the situation to minimize such outcomes?" or something along those lines.

It'll be obvious to Ami that this has to do with Kei, that and the fact that we think she's likely to be angry will be enough to ratchet up the tension, but she won't have the basic throughline of 'Mari endangered Kei in a way that Kei considers unforgivable' needed to stir up the thoughts of righteous vengeance we're trying to dissuade her from.

Generally speaking, I think it's suboptimal to give Ami everything she needs to be tangibly outraged with a specific target before getting her input and deciding on a strategy.

Good point, adjusted wording everywhere. Does the below look good?

Velorien said:
What are these sanctions?

Clarified, see below.

Noumero said:
[x] Ami Plan: When in Doubt, Go Meta
Word count: 388
Humour index: 30%

Ask Ami to optimize your approach to the next topic, so that it works even given that she helped optimize it.

Spend the green favour token if necessary.

Avoid mentioning Asuma's inability to control Orochimaru.

Subject: Suppose there was news you needed to tell Ami that might induce anger and counterproductive desires. How should you describe the situation to minimize such outcomes?

Approaches:

Door-in-Face: Lead by conveying the emotional truth of the situation and the fairly decisive sanctions taken to avoid its recurrence.

Conceit: Frame the situation as already "settled". Put the brunt of the emotional impact at the beginning so Ami knows what to expect, and is ready to process it constructively.

Con: Might prime her to see it in the worst light.

(Note-for-self: "Sanctions" stand for Kei cutting ties with Mari.)

Foot-in-Door: Chronological description that focuses on the sanctions at the end, vividly describing their effect.

Conceit: Provide Ami the experience of righteous justice and catharsis vicariously, with no need for active action.

Con: Ami might consider the sanctions insufficient — bad combination with ending the conversation on an emotional note.

Factual: Recount the events objectively, no opinions or careful framing.

Conceit: Ami is a reasonable person...

Con: ... but it's about a pivotal subject.

Empathetic: Draw parallels between the situation and some of Ami's actions.

Con: Ami might disagree with the parallels, or refuse to care by declaring the concept of hypocrisy incoherent.

(Note-for-self: Hazou might be to Mari what Kei is to Ami. Ami invented the Final Gift Programme and is letting Kichi manipulate people into it, all to save herself from Oro.)

Pragmatic: Expand on how counterproductive acting on the initial desires would be. Pivot to discussing potential constructive responses.

Cons: Ami might consider counterproductive actions necessary.

Adversarial: Promise to take sanctions against Ami should she act on her desires, and/or ask to stay her hand for a favour.

Con: Damages your relationship with Ami.

(Note-for-self: "Sanctions" might range from refusing to cooperate with her projects to actively derailing them to refusing her access to FOOM to broadly damaging her standing in Leaf.)

Distracting: Stage a major crisis that would leave everyone too preoccupied to spend time on (this) drama or catching up.

Proceed according to Ami's advice (within reasonable limits).

If Ami refuses to humor this, try Pragmatic, then Door-in-Face, then Adversarial.

eaglejarl · Dec 10, 2021

For clarity: I'll be writing an update using whatever is in your plan that doesn't pertain to Ami. @Velorien will write whatever is in there that does pertain to Ami.

Noumero · Dec 10, 2021

eaglejarl said:
For clarity: I'll be writing an update using whatever is in your plan that doesn't pertain to Ami. @Velorien will write whatever is in there that does pertain to Ami.

But what if we want to go for continuing the previous plan? That'd involve either linking to the previous plan (which would mean voting by reference, and I recall you dislike that (and it's, I feel, is meaningfully distinct from just going "continue the previous plan" with no additional commentary this cycle)) or including the entire content of the previous plan in the current plan (which doesn't seem fair to us: the current word count limits were designed to make a plan tractable for one QM, whereas here we'd be effectively asked to cram planning for two separate updates into one plan).

FaintlySorcerous · Dec 10, 2021

Noumero said:
But what if we want to go for continuing the previous plan? That'd involve either linking to the previous plan (which would mean voting by reference, and I recall you dislike that) or including the entire content of the previous plan in the current plan (which doesn't seem fair to us: the current word count limits were designed to make a plan tractable for one QM, whereas here we'd be effectively asked to cram planning for two separate updates into one plan).

My impression is that voting-by-reference is acceptable when the reference is a link.

Edit: I'm wrong - at least, I can't find anything supporting this assertion. I don't know where I got this impression.

Paperclipped · Dec 10, 2021

An EJ snippet for planmakers:

Meet with Canteloupe and Cantilever about visiting Pangolin. Benefits:
- Seeing new sights, meeting other Summon Clans and hearing their stories.
- Influencing the world at the Conclave, and influencing Clans. Are there any nicer Pangolins?
Cannai:
- Detail our clanmates's abilities and elements. If Cannai knows any jutsu we could share to keep them safe, they would be appreciated.
- By the way, do you know why Pantsaa would be so scared of a Mori Clan member using the Frozen Skein on the Seventh Path?
  - Explain Thinker Clans and the Five to your understanding if requested.

eaglejarl · Dec 10, 2021

Lord Marshal said:
I don't know how the "Follow previous plan" thing work, but would maybe it better to link to it in the plan for EJ, in case he does an update? I'm not sure if we'll get a Velorien update, a EJ update + Velorien scene or a EJ update + Velorien Bonus update and so on, but at least this way EJ would have something to write about if he so decides.

Noumero said:
But what if we want to go for continuing the previous plan? That'd involve either linking to the previous plan (which would mean voting by reference, and I recall you dislike that (and it's, I feel, is meaningfully distinct from just going "continue the previous plan" with no additional commentary this cycle)) or including the entire content of the previous plan in the current plan (which doesn't seem fair to us: the current word count limits were designed to make a plan tractable for one QM, whereas here we'd be effectively asked to cram planning for two separate updates into one plan).

Once again:

eaglejarl said:

No plans by pointer addition, please. "Continue previous plan" is fine, but if you want to add stuff to it then you need to copy over all the stuff you want from the previous plan.

Click to expand...

Click to shrink...

For clarity: If you want to do nothing but the Ami conversation, that's fine. If you want to do that plus more, the more needs to be in the plan.

EDIT:

Astoundingly, @Velorien came down on your side and convinced me to bend the rule:

For this cycle only, go ahead and use a link as long as all content is isolated. All the Ami stuff is in one plan, which Velorien will write, and everything else is in the other plan that is linked to.

Shrooms · Dec 10, 2021

Paperclipped said:
Meet with Canteloupe and Cantilever about visiting Pangolin. Benefits:

Seeing new sights, meeting other Summon Clans and hearing their stories.

Influencing the world at the Conclave, and influencing Clans. Are there any nicer Pangolins?

Couple more:
1: Asuma offered payment. Maybe they want interesting foods or free services when they visit Leaf?
2: They get to spend time with each other on an officially ordained mission!

Velorien · Dec 10, 2021

eaglejarl said:
Once again:

For clarity: If you want to do nothing but the Ami conversation, that's fine. If you want to do that plus more, the more needs to be in the plan.

EDIT:

Astoundingly, @Velorien came down on your side and convinced me to bend the rule:

For this cycle only, go ahead and use a link as long as all content is isolated. All the Ami stuff is in one plan, which Velorien will write, and everything else is in the other plan that is linked to.

Astoundingly? I have always been an ally of the players ~~having more rope to hang themselves with.~~

faflec · Dec 10, 2021

[x] EJ: Continue Previous Plan

If we can add more time to improve the Ami plan, I see no reason why we should not do so.

Paperclipped · Dec 10, 2021

@eaglejarl Do you like writing Yuno?

Noumero · Dec 10, 2021

Added the following:

Noumero said:
[x] Ami Plan: When in Doubt, Go Meta
Word count: 366
Humour index: 30%

(After talking to Ami, proceed with the previous plan.)

Ask Ami to optimize your approach to the next topic, so that it works even given that she helped optimize it.

Spend the favour token, if necessary.

Avoid mentioning Asuma's inability to control Orochimaru.

Subject: Suppose there was news you needed to tell Ami that might induce anger and counterproductive desires. How should you describe the situation to minimize such outcomes?

Approaches:

Door-in-Face: Start by conveying the situation's emotional truth and the sanctions taken to avoid its recurrence.

Conceit: Frame it as already "settled". Lead with the emotional impact so Ami knows what to expect, and is ready to process it constructively.

Con: Might prime her to see it in the worst light.

(Note: "Sanctions" stand for Kei cutting ties with Mari.)

Foot-in-Door: Chronological description that focuses on the sanctions at the end, vividly describing their effect.

Conceit: Provide Ami the experience of righteous justice and catharsis vicariously — no need for active action.

Con: Ami might consider the sanctions insufficient — bad combination with ending on an emotional note.

Factual: Recount the events objectively, no opinions or careful framing.

Conceit: Ami is a reasonable person...

Con: ... but it's about a pivotal subject.

Empathetic: Draw parallels between the situation and some of Ami's actions.

Con: Ami might disagree with the parallels, or refuse to care about "hypocrisy".

(Note: Hazou might be to Mari what Kei is to Ami. Also, Ami invented the FGP and lets Kichi manipulate people into it, all to escape Oro.)

Pragmatic: Detail how counterproductive acting on the initial desires would be. Pivot to discussing constructive responses.

Cons: Ami might consider the counterproductive actions necessary.

Adversarial: Promise to take sanctions against Ami should she act on her desires, and/or ask to stay her hand for a favour.

Con: Damages your relationship with Ami.

(Note: "Sanctions" might range from refusing to cooperate with her projects to actively obstructing them to withholding FOOM to broadly damaging her standing in Leaf.)

Distracting: Stage a major crisis that would leave everyone too preoccupied to spend time on (this) drama.

Proceed according to Ami's advice (within reasonable limits).

If Ami refuses to humor this, try Pragmatic, then Door-in-Face, then Adversarial.

Will replace the linked plan with whatever seems to be the thread consensus later on.

Oneiros · Dec 10, 2021

A thing that I think we have to do in the EJ plan is give Asuma all the information that we have on the Kraken scroll. We are probably going to make a peace treaty with cloud soon and we should not let the opportunity to get another friendly summoner to help out with the DRAGONWAR go to waste. With sky sliders we can send in whatever team Asuma wants to grab it

Edit: yes I would prefer for Hazō and uplift to do it but snagging it while a diplomatic incident won't happen is more important

FaintlySorcerous · Dec 10, 2021

I have quite a few concerns for this plan. I think that the central conceit - 'Ami, help me have a conversation with Ami' - is potentially charming enough that Ami might indulge it to our benefit, but I think that the execution as it stands is flawed. I've added some pieces and removed some pieces, and I have commentary below.

Noumero said:
Ask Ami to optimize your approach to the next topic, so that it works even given that she helped optimize it.

Spend the green favour token if necessary.

Avoid mentioning Asuma's inability to control Orochimaru.

If she declines, take the Pragmatic approach, then Door-in-Face, then Adversarial.

Subject: You have distressing news to relay to Ami. How should you communicate it to minimize anger and encourage collaboration?

Approaches:

All approaches explain the situation (Kei has severed ties with Mari) and express concern for Kei's well-being - she is in pain and you want to help her. You don't know how to help her, and you want advice.

Door-in-Face: Lead by conveying the emotional truth of the situation and the fairly decisive sanctions taken to avoid its recurrence.

Conceit: Frame the situation as already "settled". Put the brunt of the emotional impact at the beginning so Ami knows what to expect, and is ready to process it constructively.

Con: Might prime her to see it in the worst light.

(Note-for-self: "Sanctions" stand for Kei cutting ties with Mari.)

Foot-in-Door: Chronological description that focuses on the sanctions at the end, vividly describing their effect.

Conceit: Provide Ami the experience of righteous justice and catharsis vicariously, with no need for active action.

Con: Ami might consider the sanctions insufficient — bad combination with ending the conversation on an emotional note.

Factual: Recount the events objectively, no opinions or careful framing.

Conceit: Ami is a reasonable person...

Con: ... but it's about a pivotal subject.

Empathetic: Draw parallels between the situation and some of Ami's actions.

Con: Ami might disagree with the parallels, or refuse to care by declaring the concept of hypocrisy incoherent.

(Note-for-self: 1, Hazou might be to Mari what Kei is to Ami. 2, Ami invented the Final Gift Programme and is letting Kichi manipulate people into it, all to save herself from Oro.)

Pragmatic: Expand on how counterproductive acting on the initial desires would be. Pivot to discussing potential constructive responses.

Cons: Ami might consider the counterproductive actions necessary.

Adversarial: Promise to take sanctions against Ami should she act on her desires, and/or ask her to stay her hand for a favour.

Con: Damages your relationship with Ami.

(Note-for-self: "Sanctions" might range from refusing to cooperate with her projects to actively obstructing them to refusing her access to FOOM to broadly damaging her standing in Leaf.)

Distracting: Stage a major crisis that would leave everyone too preoccupied to spend time on (this) drama or catching up.

~~Proceed according to Ami's advice (within reasonable limits).~~

~~If Ami refuses to humor this, try Pragmatic, then Door-in-Face, then Adversarial.~~

Broad notes: I don't think that it's to our benefit to lock ourselves into taking Ami's advice. We can act on it in the next plan, and I have faith in Pilot to immediately implement any brilliant suggestions. Precommitting to unspecified action is not something I'm comfortable with, especially given that our pressure-release-valve is the word 'reasonable', without clear definition.

I am confused by 'door-in-face'. The words don't mean anything to me, and it seems very muddy. What is the emotional truth of the situation? Why are we framing things as 'settled'?

I'm not sure that foot-in-door is valuable. (I also don't understand the name.) The hope is that Ami will feel that Kei has gone far enough? This scans like we're stressing, 'hey, Mari has already had the shit kicked out of her, no need for you to pile on'. I don't think that Ami is going to be receptive to that idea regardless of how we phrase it. She's going to draw her own conclusions and trying to manipulate her into drawing other ones via emotional appeal seems like a) a losing proposition as she's better at manipulation than we are and b) kinda shitty and out-of-character.

Factual makes sense to me. I'd rephrase the conceit/con as 'trusting Ami wants the best outcome for everyone' and 'Ami may prioritize Kei to the significant detriment of people Hazo cherishes'.

Empathetic...makes some sense. The 'note-for-self' framing doesn't read smoothly to me.

I think that I disagree with a lot of the wording for the proposed approaches as things stand. Could you expand on what you mean by them? I'd like to help re-phrase them (if you agree there's room for improvement) but I don't feel I understand what they're all meant to accomplish well enough to do so. I really want this plan to work - I think it's a fun idea, at any rate, but I just don't understand most of our hypothesized approaches.

FaintlySorcerous · Dec 10, 2021

eaglejarl said:
For this cycle only, go ahead and use a link as long as all content is isolated. All the Ami stuff is in one plan, which Velorien will write, and everything else is in the other plan that is linked to.

Is your preferred format...

[Z] Action plan: Ami Scene

Talk to Ami
Do other stuff (link to Other Plan)

[Z] Action plan: Other Plan

Talk to Cannai
Trim fingernails

Or...

[Z] Action plan: Placeholder Name

Talk to Ami (link to Ami Scene)
Talk to Cannai
Trim fingernails

[Z] Action plan: Ami Scene

Talk to Ami

Or is the format unimportant as long as there's both separation of the two plans and the intended coupling is obvious?

Black King · Dec 10, 2021

FaintlySorcerous said:
I think that 'you kidnapped me and never apologized' is a pretty valid complaint, especially given that the apology she did get pretty clearly came from a manipulative Mari.

Kinda yeah. I just didn't remember Kei actually having anyone to call a loved one.

But apparently I'm wrong according to the QM.

FaintlySorcerous · Dec 10, 2021

Black King said:
Kinda yeah. I just didn't remember Kei actually having anyone to call a loved one.

But apparently I'm wrong according to the QM.

Kei always loved Ami.

faflec · Dec 10, 2021

FaintlySorcerous said:
Is your preferred format...

[Z] Action plan: Ami Scene

Talk to Ami

Do other stuff (link to Other Plan)

[Z] Action plan: Other Plan

Talk to Cannai

Trim fingernails

Or...

[Z] Action plan: Placeholder Name

Talk to Ami (link to Ami Scene)

Talk to Cannai

Trim fingernails

[Z] Action plan: Ami Scene

Talk to Ami

Or is the format unimportant as long as there's both separation of the two plans and the intended coupling is obvious?

Yes.

Black King · Dec 10, 2021

FaintlySorcerous said:
Kei always loved Ami.

Of course. But there's more to it than that, to call someone a 'loved' one. Like if Ami really was freezing out Kei and Mari's kidnapping fixed their situation, then it'd be wrong to say Mari took her from Ami. But again, I'm wrong on that it seems so....nothing to really talk about.

Noumero · Dec 10, 2021

FaintlySorcerous said:
Broad notes: I don't think that it's to our benefit to lock ourselves into taking Ami's advice. We can act on it in the next plan, and I have faith in Pilot to immediately implement any brilliant suggestions. Precommitting to unspecified action is not something I'm comfortable with, especially given that our pressure-release-valve is the word 'reasonable', without clear definition.

I am confused by 'door-in-face'. The words don't mean anything to me, and it seems very muddy. What is the emotional truth of the situation? Why are we framing things as 'settled'?

I'm not sure that foot-in-door is valuable. (I also don't understand the name.) The hope is that Ami will feel that Kei has gone far enough?

Factual makes sense to me. I'd rephrase the conceit/con as 'trusting Ami to act in everyone's best interests' and 'Ami may prioritize Kei to the significant detriment of people Hazo cherishes'.

Empathetic...makes some sense. The 'note-for-self' framing doesn't read smoothly to me.

I think that I disagree with a lot of the wording for the proposed approaches as things stand. Could you expand on what you mean by them? I'd like to help re-phrase them (if you agree there's room for improvement) but I don't feel I understand what they're all meant to accomplish well enough to do so.

Eh, fair.
Door-in-face and foot-in-door are references to common manipulation techniques. Door-in-the-face involves making someone an offer outrageously biased in your favour that you expect your interlocutor to refuse, which should make them more receptive to a second, more reasonable offer. Foot-in-the-door is the opposite: you make a small offer that you expect the interlocutor to accept, as the groundwork for making a more demanding offer. The relevance to this situation is that we'd either immediately provoke a maximally negative response and then "negotiate it down" to a less-negative one by providing the context for Mari's actions, or, conversely, provide full context at every step so even the worst part doesn't hit so hard. It doesn't map on perfectly, but I kinda just went with it.
- ... I'm not sure if anyone else got these references, actually. Did anyone else get any of that?
- Anyway, the "emotional truth" is that Kei feels like Mari sacrificed her for Hazou. And it's "settled" because Kei formally cut ties with Mari. I'll clarify those.
Yes.
Sure.
I'll reword that.
Any specific remaining points of confusion?

Noumero said:
[x] Ami Plan: When in Doubt, Go Meta
Word count: 366
Humour index: 30%

(After talking to Ami, proceed with the previous plan.)

Ask Ami to optimize your approach to the next topic, so that it works even given that she helped optimize it.

Spend the favour token, if necessary.

Avoid mentioning Asuma's inability to control Orochimaru.

If Ami refuses to humor this, try Pragmatic, then Door-in-the-Face, then Adversarial.

Subject: Suppose there was news you needed to tell Ami that might induce anger and counterproductive desires. How should you describe the situation to minimize such outcomes?

Approaches:

Door-in-the-Face: Start by conveying the situation's emotional truth and the sanctions taken to avoid its recurrence.

Conceit: Frame it as already "settled", requiring no further action. Lead with the emotional impact so Ami knows what to expect, and is ready to process it constructively.

Con: Might prime her to see it in the worst light.

(Clarification: "Sanctions" stand for Kei cutting ties with Mari. "Emotional truth" is that Kei feels that Mari sacrificed her for Hazou.)

Foot-in-the-Door: Chronological description that focuses on the sanctions at the end, vividly describing their effect.

Conceit: Provide Ami the experience of righteous justice and catharsis vicariously — no need for active action.

Con: Ami might consider the sanctions insufficient — bad combination with ending on an emotional note.

Factual: Recount the events objectively, no opinions or careful framing.

Conceit: Trusting Ami to act in everyone's best interests.

Con: Ami's priorities might be incompatible with that.

Empathetic: Draw parallels between the situation and some of Ami's actions.

Con: Ami might disagree with the parallels, or refuse to care about "hypocrisy".

(Clarification: Hazou might be to Mari what Kei is to Ami. Also, Ami invented the FGP and lets Kichi manipulate people into it, all to escape Oro.)

Pragmatic: Detail how counterproductive acting on the initial desires would be. Pivot to discussing constructive responses.

Cons: Ami might consider the counterproductive actions necessary.

Adversarial: Promise to take sanctions against Ami should she act on her desires, and/or ask to stay her hand for a favour.

Con: Damages your relationship with Ami.

(Clarification: "Sanctions" might range from refusing to cooperate with her projects to actively obstructing them to withholding FOOM to broadly damaging her standing in Leaf.)

Distracting: Stage a major crisis that would leave everyone too preoccupied to spend time on (this) drama.

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

In doubt there's always the Sun!

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