Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

ting · Nov 30, 2020

[X] Action Plan: Family Friction

I'm a big fan of the Ami section! Don't really mind about the Keiko bit.

E: like @Rafin says though, I don't think she's THAT invested in uplift, so would also remove that bit. But unlike @Rafin, I don't think this just makes Ami think we're an idiot. Ami had been shown to be conscious of her inability (but newfound motivation to) operate within some kind of semi-familial relationship, if only because that would make Keiko happy. Hazo clearly communicating both that he's intelligent enough to grasp her message as well as how/why the way she delivered it is unacceptable under this new dynamic she's learning is perfect for her.

Rafin · Nov 30, 2020

@RandomOTP Since when does Ami care about Uplift beyond the chaos our quest might create, which she can exploit for fun and profit.

In general I feel like you have a very wrong read of Ami and that your proposed plan at best will remind her just how much of an idiot Hazō is and thus cause her to manipulate us with softer gloves.

MadScientist said:
On another note: is there anything we can do to make his life easier wrt the conbine law (or just in general)?

should be 'concubine'

ContextBot said:
We should ask him if there is a way for us to help him to pass the Concubine laws in their original state without any further changes. He does need the goodwill of the more conservative clans, doesn't mean there isn't anything we could do to help.

Didn't they already pass? Asuma was saddened at how they were passed and by what margin, but if he had overruled the Council over that then he would have stated that clearly and he wouldn't have waited till most clan heads and representatives left before reprimanding Keiko, Hazō and Shikamaru.

Or am I misremembering stuff?

Velorien · Nov 30, 2020

Rafin said:
Didn't they already pass? Asuma was saddened at how they were passed and by what margin, but if he had overruled the Council over that then he would have stated that clearly and he wouldn't have waited till most clan heads and representatives left before reprimanding Keiko, Hazō and Shikamaru.

They are in the kind of ambiguous frozen state that you can afford to put legal projects into when you are an absolute dictator who does not wish to overrule the Council but also does not wish to promote social unrest for the sake of a person who's earned your disapproval by trying to manipulate you.

Rafin · Nov 30, 2020

Velorien said:
They are in the kind of ambiguous frozen state that you can afford to put legal projects into when you are an absolute dictator who does not wish to overrule the Council but also does not wish to promote social unrest for the sake of a person who's earned your disapproval by trying to manipulate you.

Is this currently common knowledge among clan heads? Was it already common knowledge shortly after everyone left the Tower or did most clan heads probably just infer it when they got no update regarding the supposed new law?

Also, completely different subject:
Eaglejarl said that the adoption related stuff from the latest plan was covered by you. But your post only answered my own questions and didn't really go into any of the plan's points beyond where they overlapped with my question barrage. Are you leaving that stuff for later (another chapter?) or was there an oversight?

ContextBot · Nov 30, 2020

Rafin said:
Didn't they already pass? Asuma was saddened at how they were passed and by what margin, but if he had overruled the Council over that then he would have stated that clearly and he wouldn't have waited till most clan heads and representatives left before reprimanding Keiko, Hazō and Shikamaru.

i mean this part:

Velorien said:
"So now, I'm going to read through the whole thing a second time, and at the end I'm going to ask myself: 'Is this worth the risk of destabilising Leaf as it already reels from the consequences of the KEI's first victory?' But I suspect I already know the answer."

Sounds to me like he would consider to take out the possibility for same-sex arrangements, we did just start a clan war and pissed some people off and he personally doesn't care.

Shrooms · Nov 30, 2020

[x] Action Plan: Steps Forward

I'd also consider voting for you ROTP if you get that word count down. 500+ is a lot

Velorien · Nov 30, 2020

Rafin said:
Eaglejarl said that the adoption related stuff from the latest plan was covered by you. But your post only answered my own questions and didn't really go into any of the plan's points beyond where they overlapped with my question barrage. Are you leaving that stuff for later (another chapter?) or was there an oversight?

Possibly an oversight, but I don't know which particular stuff you're talking about. Could you clarify?

Velorien · Nov 30, 2020

Rafin said:
Is this currently common knowledge among clan heads? Was it already common knowledge shortly after everyone left the Tower or did most clan heads probably just infer it when they got no update regarding the supposed new law?

HDK. He has not received any further update on the law, and its details have not been part of public discussion (the contents of Clan Council meetings are not secret, but also not automatically public knowledge unless somebody present goes out of their way to share them).

Lailoken · Nov 30, 2020

Kiba said:
We should buy glasses for him.

That would actually be an amazingly sweet gesture. We know where to get them and that they are very rare and expensive. This kid is supposed to be a member of a founding clan, but they treat him as disposable trash they are forced to haul because of an accident of birth.

His teacher took him in, gave him meaning in life, literally saved his life from a short, hopeless slog, and then upon his ascendance to one of the rarest and most skilled disciplines known thought to bend his privilege to make his student whole? That's a story to inspire loyalty.

RandomOTP · Nov 30, 2020

At work right now, give me a few hours and I'll answer/alter some things! Worst case scenario, I'm out in about 8ish hours and can do it then!

That said, don't be afraid to ping me for advice/comments/concerns/etc.

Sentient Tree · Nov 30, 2020

[X] Action Plan: Family Friction

Shrooms · Nov 30, 2020

Can I post multiple plans or is that frowned on lol

Velorien · Nov 30, 2020

Shrooms said:
Can I post multiple plans or is that frowned on lol

Sure you can.

Edit:

RandomOTP said:
You made us worry for the life of someone we hold very dear to our heart.

Strictly speaking, this is not true. Hazō was too brainlocked to consider practical implications like pregnancy survival rates during the few seconds between Ami starting and ending her lie. Which is not to say it might not have gone through his head amidst the general torrent of panic, but it wasn't a matter of rational thought and concern.

Shrooms · Nov 30, 2020

Velorien said:
Sure you can.

Thanks, I was mostly wondering for last arc. I had several things I wanted to do so if I'm ever conflicted about it again I'll keep this in mind.

Inferno Vulpix · Nov 30, 2020

[x] Action Plan: Steps Forward

Two small suggestions for optimizing the necromancy section, @MadScientist:

Shikamaru probably knows that replicating a seal failure is a bad idea, so rather than 're-open our portal' it might be better to keep it to 'open a new, controlled portal' or something similar that conveys our intentions better.
We should qualify the request for information from him that we're not angling for clan secrets, but just what he's willing to share at this early stage of the project. It's the sort of thing that probably goes without saying, but which helps smooth over any friction by explicitly stating.

Roomba · Nov 30, 2020

TFW we're prince charming in Harumitsu's Cinderella story. The modern YA version, where prince charming is cunning, politically dangerous, and probably the final villain.

RandomOTP said:
[X] Action Plan: Family Friction
Wordcount: 510

Ami

Tone: We're supposed to be equal partners, mutually committed towards working together for Uplift. So let's reach the root-issue, so this doesn't happen again

Thank you her for the apology message from the Wedding Gift

Does she know whyyou were angry?

We understood your hidden message, but the way you told it was abhorrent

You exploited intimate information about us.

You made us worry for the life of someone we hold very dear to our heart.

To give us a message that you could've just said outright, since even you admit that no one was within earshot.

Such cruel methods, though effective in bridging qualia, cannot exist between us.

Ami, if someone showed this level of existential disregard for Keiko, especially for something as paltry as communicative efficiency, what would you do?

Normally it's permissible, because ninja. But we're more than that: family.

The relationship of "mutually beneficial relationship between two neutral entities" is easy.

But we're not just that, otherwise things wouldn't be so difficult.

We're something new, and that requires both change and different priorities, from both of us.

Not repeating rote, old patterns because it's safer.

And yes, it's pain. Welcome to the party. In our experience, it's worth it.

If we don't exist in your priorities, this whole fiasco is just a result of us misplacing our trust. We don't think that's the case. We're united in our shared priority in Keiko, and in our partnership to drag humanity towards Uplift --one way or another.

We wouldoffer a peace offering, but there is nothing to offer, because:

As family, if she ever needs help, we'd help her regardless. Because normal rules don't apply.

This said, you have a permanent seat at our dinner table, and an optimization meeting (at a time of your choosing) for your… plan.

Keiko

Optimize with the Goketsu, Tenten, and Shika

Keiko, we've noticed that you're stressed, and that you don't seem to feel comfortable with the success that you've achieved. Would you like to talk about that? We can (and will) list out each and every reason why you've earned the success you've gained.

Crystal Sisters

During the Hag-Rebellion Party, our sister made a social mistake

You've always been tolerant of our own social blunders, even when you would've been entirely justified in hardening your heart against us (ex: first killbox)

We wanted to ask if there was anything we could do to help our sisters' progression as individuals, or failing that, if we could be an ear to listen as you vent your frustrations.

We were also wondering if you would be against us spending time with our new sisters? FOOM can wait a bit if it means our family stays connected. What use is power if it means you're alone and your family is neglected? Look at Orochimaru.

I think this is structurally not the way to go. Ami won't sit there and listen to our speech, she'll derail the whole thing before the second bullet-point. What you want, instead, is to give Hazou an understanding of the situation and a set of high-level goals and guidelines. He's already shown himself to be quite insightful when it comes to Ami, he can be trusted to do a contextually better job than we can.

That is assuming that we even need to do anything special. I'd be fine with just telling Ami that we forgive her and asking if she accepts it. This, for the most part, is her growing up emotionally - she has to do most of the work on her own. Best we can really do is give out the right nudges.

MadScientist · Nov 30, 2020

Inferno Vulpix said:
Shikamaru probably knows that replicating a seal failure is a bad idea, so rather than 're-open our portal' it might be better to keep it to 'open a new, controlled portal' or something similar that conveys our intentions better.

EJ Ponwog (only ponwog, not wog) is that it would be significantly easier to research an "open portal to afterlife" seal if it needs to be activated on the site of the previous rift in order to work. That says to me that reopening the previous portal is easier than creating a new one.

I'll add the clan secrets thing.

Inferno Vulpix · Nov 30, 2020

MadScientist said:
EJ Ponwog (only ponwog, not wog) is that it would be significantly easier to research an "open portal to afterlife" seal if it needs to be activated on the site of the previous rift in order to work. That says to me that reopening the previous portal is easier than creating a new one.

I'll add the clan secrets thing.

I agree, but that sounds orthogonal to whether the portal we create is from trying to replicate the original effect or from building the design up from scratch. In that sense, using the site of the previous portal would still be for the purposes of opening a new portal instead of reopening the previous one.

But I'm mainly just hedging against edge cases that Hazou can probably defuse himself if the misunderstanding does actually happen, so it's not a big deal either way.

RandomOTP · Nov 30, 2020

Velorien said:
To clarify, what does Hazō believe the hidden message was?

Primary message: "Keiko is struggling with the growing pains of her clones developing individuality. Please help me convince her not to throw away the SC because that would be equal to infanticide."

Secondary Message: "Be more careful and less impulsive with Akane because pregnancy is a very real, very dangerous thing."

Velorien said:
In practical terms, how? Is Hazō going to aim for a time when Keiko's not at the Nara compound to visit them?

Ideally yes, but if that's not reasonable or feasible, I can take that out and replace it with "The Goketsu, especially Mari"

Velorien said:
What does this refer to

When one of the Crystal Sisters (the ne escapes right now, the "blunt" one) accidentally sexually propositioned Hazou when aiming for being merely "blunt."

It's meant to be a "I know that the growing pains (such as this specific incident) suck, but it's worth it. What can I do to help make this easier on you?"

Shrooms said:
[x] Action Plan: Steps Forward

I'd also consider voting for you ROTP if you get that word count down. 500+ is a lot

Agreed, I'll cut it down after my shift

Velorien said:
Strictly speaking, this is not true. Hazō was too brainlocked to consider practical implications like pregnancy survival rates during the few seconds between Ami starting and ending her lie. Which is not to say it might not have gone through his head amidst the general torrent of panic, but it wasn't a matter of rational thought and concern.

Hm. I'll try to find a way to reword it. Maybe something to the effect of "I was shocked, stunned, and panicked, and I kept cycling back to the thought about how dangerous pregnancy for her would be. It kept me from thinking rationally, in the moment."

Roomba said:
I think this is structurally not the way to go. Ami won't sit there and listen to our speech, she'll derail the whole thing before the second bullet-point. What you want, instead, is to give Hazou an understanding of the situation and a set of high-level goals and guidelines. He's already shown himself to be quite insightful when it comes to Ami, he can be trusted to do a contextually better job than we can.

That is assuming that we even need to do anything special. I'd be fine with just telling Ami that we forgive her and asking if she accepts it. This, for the most part, is her growing up emotionally - she has to do most of the work on her own. Best we can really do is give out the right nudges.

A good point, I'll try and think of a way to restructure it

Velorien · Nov 30, 2020

RandomOTP said:
When one of the Crystal Sisters (the ne escapes right now, the "blunt" one) accidentally sexually propositioned Hazou when aiming for being merely "blunt."

I thought that might be what you meant. That was the engagement party, not the LGBT party. Also, that was Prism.

Edit: No, it wasn't, it was Crystal. In my defence, they all look the same.

Lailoken · Nov 30, 2020

Hazou: "Hey boss, Kagome and I are going on a field trip back to the island to figure out how to rip a hole through reality (again) and suck ghosts out of it."

Asuma: "Does this in any way involve Hidan?"

Hazou: "Gee, do you think he'd be up for it‽"

Shrooms · Nov 30, 2020

I combined ideas from the two leading plans, just bc they were the scenes I preferred. Also changed wordings for word count purposes

[X] Action Plan: Forward Friction
Word Count: 298

Ami
- Meet on familiar treetop, reference old meeting
- Have Hazou list traits of Ami's he appreciates, even (or especially) ones he thinks she may be ashamed of
- List why working with her can be frustrating to him
  - For someone who is so concerned with her own agency, she doesn't respect Hazou's whatsoever
  - Any time they get closer she creates a new divide. Why? Fear of connection?
    - That's simply cowardice, it's not rational.
    - It won't work anyways. So long as Keiko considers her family, Hazou sees her as family.
  - Latest schism was illogical and pointless.
    - Trust Hazou of all people to be reasonable about weird things, just be direct and genuine
    - Pranks are fine, but Ami should know where the line is. She can ask if she doesn't know
  - Hazou can't force her to change, nor would he. He hopes she wants to change. He knows where he stands, so her choices will define their future.
Nara
- Meet with Shikamaru & Keiko to discuss necromancy.
  - Pain brought Akatsuki back to life with ninjutsu, and Hazou physically entered the afterlife and brought back a dead person.
  - We're investigating ways to reopen our portal or create another, so we can send expeditions into the afterlife and rescue the dead.
  - While we'll refrain from emotional appeals, there are people that we all very much want to recover.
  - We want to do this sensibly, even if that means that it takes years or decades, so long as it gets done. We're beginning the early phase of information-gathering right now.
  - Will they join us in this project?
    - If so, explain our experiences in the afterlife in detail (especially wrt loss of chakra). Also ask for information on the paths, or anything else they might think is relevant that isn't Nara secrets.
Research LBF.

Orisha91 · Nov 30, 2020

[X] Action Plan: Convert and Boost
Word Count: 171

Hagaromo Encounter:

Keiko:
- Tell Keiko about your experience with your soon-to-be Sealing apprentice.
- He might be primed to absorb uplift philosophy over the long term during breaks in training.
  - Sanity check with Keiko. He's pushing your sympathy buttons.

Adaptive Training:

Ninja mortality rates will interfere with dreams of clan membership. Solution? Devise group training exercises for your new clan members as a consolation.

Use:

The ground is Lava (Use MEW, not ceiling)
Ebisu exercises
- Challenge: Perform Ebisu exercises on the MEW (if possible)
Set up Targets for ranged weapons practice
- Challenge: Devise Trick shot challenges (H-O-R-S-E game or Mfd Equivalent)

Haru:
- Go over training exercises beforehand and delegate to him (Bond with him). Your presence alone as clan head might interfere/intimidate.
Incentives/Prizes: Vibration seals (massage therapy?), Explosive seals.
Contingencies
- Consider disabilities when devising exercises.
- Check with the Mari, Haru, Akane and Keiko. You plan to refine and expand this to more ninja.
  - Invite Akane, Keiko, Lee (or Snowflake) if available

Clan Game Night

Shrooms · Nov 30, 2020

Is there an Ami-style training doc or something along those lines? I'm interested in bringing that back but I don't want to waste time on repeats

faflec · Nov 30, 2020

Shrooms said:
Is there an Ami-style training doc or something along those lines? I'm interested in bringing that back but I don't want to waste time on repeats

Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

Naruto reimagined as a deathworld without most of the canon plot holes.

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