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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Noumero said:
  • Meet with Keiko and Mari (max-privacy).
  • Discuss Ami: You have severe reservations about including her.
    • What is the theoretical limit to a person's proficiency at psychological manipulation, especially a Mori's? Ami's social acumen is unnerving as-is. A post-singularity Ami, you fear, would be effectively a mind-controller against anyone lesser than a jounin social-spec, including her fellow newly-made godlings.
    • You'd trust Mari with that power — a trust that was hard-earned over years in life-or-death situations, and sacrifices with no room for lies. Replicating that with Ami is unrealistic: incredibly difficult, necessarily mortally dangerous, and only possible if she is trustworthy. Anything less, you'd suspect manipulation.
    • Additionally, you suspect the SC feedback loop could be shortened by novel inventions in Sealing, Technique-Hacking, or Medical Ninjutsu, also making the beneficiary a double-god. Ami'll surely recognize that.
    • You might be willing to include her, in exchange for a lotof favours, provided that:
      • She waits two years. Guesstimating, in that time you'd be roughly within her striking range, removing the need for trust.
      • She doesn't study the aforementioned research disciplines.
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I would like to note that these aren't really solutions.
The "Wait two years" or "Don't learn Sealing" isn't really the problem, it's "we don't trust her and believe she could move against us". . Once she is clued in FOOM,in my opinion it's already to late for damage control. We trust her enough to give her FOOM, or we don't, because FOOM by itself capable of ending us all.(Also, in this situation you can't really enforce said orders)
The only "countermeasure" that seems good enough is "Ami needs Goketsu to continue FOOMing", but that is easier said than done, how easy would it be for Ami to bring a Wakahisa from Mist with her? AMI is big and powerful,so it could be possible.
Also, Keiko wants desperatly a reason to bring Ami in, but won't until we say so, this could send mixed messages to an already confused Keiko. Personally i would find far more useful "We need to know her goals", because with that we can understand her.
 
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GlassOlive said:
There's a lot to like about this plan, but I do have some comments and suggestions.
  • I think it's fine to leave the Akane stuff for after the mine, although I would caution against leaving her out without talking to her.
  • I agree that we need to talk to the new summoners about our plan, but if we're doing it before the iron mine, what's our motivation for doing it? I don't think it's necessary to do it immediately unless you add in something about wanting them to think about it and prepare themselves before the meeting.
  • We should talk to Mari about the chocolate. This is something we can delegate to her and/or Gaku before we leave, and, unlike the summoners, is time-sensitive. Unless you have compelling reasoning otherwise, I think these should be switched.
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  • I can add something telling Akane that we're going if you really want, but in this case Akane has to stay in Konoha and help Kagome decode Jiraiya's stuff, so I wouldn't really call it leaving her out? ...are you talking about the relationship thing?
  • Doing it now lets us have the proposal mostly finished when we get back, save for talking with the Sannin. Which I am not looking forward to.
  • Hazou already delegated the chocolate thing to Gaku in the recent chapter.
 
faflec said:
  • I can add something telling Akane that we're going if you really want, but in this case Akane has to stay in Konoha and help Kagome decode Jiraiya's stuff, so I wouldn't really call it leaving her out? ...are you talking about the relationship thing?
  • Doing it now lets us have the proposal mostly finished when we get back, save for talking with the Sannin. Which I am not looking forward to.
  • Hazou already delegated the chocolate thing to Gaku in the recent chapter.
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That's a fair point about Akane, but I want to make sure we're acknowledging that this is leaving her out and we do want to talk to her about our relationship soon. Maybe just a line in Misc? If you feel we're good I'll go with it, just want to make sure it isn't overlooked. And I totally missed that we had already approached the chocolate incident, so looks good.

[X] Action Plan: The Days Before The Journey
 
faflec said:
That would be beautiful, yes; I'm afraid to add too much onto the section due to how little information we have on these people beyond what affiliations they have (and the generalizations one can infer from that).
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[X] Action Plan: The Days Before The Journey

So I'm feeling a little slow this afternoon so not up for actually writing out the plan sections right now. Maybe after lunch. But I am able to talk about what I think is important with each of the pitches

largely we want to hit tone and setting.

Since the Condor summoner is a KEI ninja we want to highlight our connections to them. That we have been closely allied and want to continue to see them prosper. We don't want to give off any vibes that we think we are better than them. My advice would be to have the meeting in a tavern. Make sure that before they arrive we are doing the stich of loosing money to KEI ninjas in gambling. Highlight the injustice between the clans and clanless. Find out if they spent longer than necessary as a special jounin from Mari. Overall tone friendship and that we are with them

For the Porcupine summoner we want to highlight that we feel we owe them a debt. Nikko gave her life to protect us and we while strive to repay that gift our entire life. We are glad that the scroll we brought to the village went to such a worthy family. We want them to join the venture because it will be a small down payment to what they have all ready given. We want to go to there seat of power to make our pitch. Tone should be submissive and respectful

An additional and more risky stratagem to employ with Minami is to bring up one of the fact that Neji is one of the members. That he will be associating and being made rich from people from the progressive faction. This will give us plenty of opportunities to influence him and through him his young cousin who will be taking a seat on the clan council soon

edit: of course we do want to make sure that they both know that they will be making piles of money for no work.
 
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It just occurred to me. Most clan heads don't really go on missions. They stay at home, run the clan, politic, and try to squeeze in the occasional training to try maintain their strength. Hazou has a habit of leading from the front --and, arguably, he only has the luxury of doing so because the Goketsu clan is so young and so small. We're also not likely to change this aspect of Hazou's character --not largely, anyway, since it's be boring to read and, I suspect, boring to write --so I can't help but wonder what kind of reputation Hazou will cultivate with this habit of his.

Will he be loved for it? Those who serve under Hazou might look to him and see a lordly noble who bleeds alongside the more "common" Goketsu ninja, ruining his fine, fashionable clothes with sweat and blood without a second thought. He leads and does not ask what he would not do, himself. Or will Hazou be ostracized for it? It just isn't done, and a Clan Lord who doesn't act with proper decorum can hardly be said to deserve the position. He disrespects the title he has.
 
RandomOTP said:
It just occurred to me. Most clan heads don't really go on missions. They stay at home, run the clan, politic, and try to squeeze in the occasional training to try maintain their strength. Hazou has a habit of leading from the front --and, arguably, he only has the luxury of doing so because the Goketsu clan is so young and so small. We're also not likely to change this aspect of Hazou's character --not largely, anyway, since it's be boring to read and, I suspect, boring to write --so I can't help but wonder what kind of reputation Hazou will cultivate with this habit of his.

Will he be loved for it? Those who serve under Hazou might look to him and see a lordly noble who bleeds alongside the more "common" Goketsu ninja, ruining his fine, fashionable clothes with sweat and blood without a second thought. He leads and does not ask what he would not do, himself. Or will Hazou be ostracized for it? It just isn't done, and a Clan Lord who doesn't act with proper decorum can hardly be said to deserve the position. He disrespects the title he has.
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He's also the Dog Summoner, and implicit in being a Summoner is that you go out and do Summoner missions that flex 'look how strong our Summoner is' to all the other villages. An argument could perhaps be made that Hazou doesn't have time to be both a Summoner and a Clan Head, but I wager they'd only really say that if we actually had trouble balancing the two responsibilities. (And besides, Shadow Clone)
 
roobee said:
Takes a long time. And also not convinced will be that useful. Although I'm not sure what we plan to do there. Guerrilla engineering, hidey hole, and chakra farms?
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Set up a mining town, prove that non-debilitating taxation is worth pursuing, possibly experiment with making chakra iron (soak iron it in highly concentrated chakra water via VD at various steps through its refinery from ore to brick?), Have some fun fights, and make a hamlet/town that's safer than anywhere else for civilians (save, perhaps, Leaf).
 
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Oneiros said:
[X] Action Plan: The Days Before The Journey

So I'm feeling a little slow this afternoon so not up for actually writing out the plan sections right now. Maybe after lunch. But I am able to talk about what I think is important with each of the pitches

largely we want to hit tone and setting.

Since the Condor summoner is a KEI ninja we want to highlight our connections to them. That we have been closely allied and want to continue to see them prosper. We don't want to give off any vibes that we think we are better than them. My advice would be to have the meeting in a tavern. Make sure that before they arrive we are doing the stich of loosing money to KEI ninjas in gambling. Highlight the injustice between the clans and clanless. Find out if they spent longer than necessary as a special jounin from Mari. Overall tone friendship and that we are with them

For the Porcupine summoner we want to highlight that we feel we owe them a debt. Nikko gave her life to protect us and we while strive to repay that gift our entire life. We are glad that the scroll we brought to the village went to such a worthy family. We want them to join the venture because it will be a small down payment to what they have all ready given. We want to go to there seat of power to make our pitch. Tone should be submissive and respectful

An additional and more risky stratagem to employ with Minami is to bring up one of the fact that Neji is one of the members. That he will be associating and being made rich from people from the progressive faction. This will give us plenty of opportunities to influence him and through him his young cousin who will be taking a seat on the clan council soon

edit: of course we do want to make sure that they both know that they will be making piles of money for no work.
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Alright, here's what I have so far. It's a bit muddled and I don't think I'm 100% sure what the focus of "That [Neji] will be associating and being made rich from people from the progressive faction." is, but it should suffice as a draft. It's not in the plan yet, wanted to get thoughts first.
  • Convince Ruri and Aika to join the Seventh Path trade.
    • Gather intel on their personalities/socioeconomic life beforehand. Optimize with Mari before implementing.
      • If she deems it necessary, get Noburi or Keiko to go instead.
    • Generally speaking, mimic our meeting with Neji, but fine-tune things towards them specifically.
      • Ruri: Tone of friendship and cooperation; act as equals.
        • Meet in a tavern, let Ruri see us losing to KEI-nin gambling.
        • Focus on our connections through the KEI, and how we want to see them prosper.
        • Highlight the injustice between clan-/clanless ninja.
          • Did they spend unnecessary time as a 'special jonin'?
      • Aika: Tone of contrition and respect.
        • Request that we meet in their compound, the seat of their power.
        • Nikkō died saving us and we've tried to repay that ever since. We're glad the Porcupine Scroll we brought went to the Minami.
        • Them joining the venture will be but a small payment to what they've already given.
        • [RISKY PLAY] Bring up how the Turtle Summoner (Hyūga Neji) plans on participating. This may well give us opportunities to influence him, and through him his cousin/clan head.
      • Meet with Neji at the Naked Jaybird
        • Optimize with Keiko and Mari (-1FP, invoke "Lists and Plans" during the conversation)
          • Make sure the menu is customized to Neji's taste.
        • We'd like to discuss Seventh Path trade:
          • If all the summoners in Konoha work together, we can create an instantaneous transportation network between all the clans and anywhere in Fire, allowing them to become vastly wealthy.
          • We could also sell an exclusive contract with companies to increase our profits:
          • We would split the profits evenly between each summoner and the trade network.
            • (e.g., 4 summoners: Each summoner gets 20% with 20% going to the trade network)
        • Talking points:
          • This is between fellow summoners, not between clans:
            • Only those of us who have travelled through the Paths are worthy (-1FP, tag "Fellow Summoners")
          • This will also keep Team Gai close:
            • Lee is on our short list for next year's adoption.
        [*]
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faflec said:
Alright, here's what I have so far. It's a bit muddled and I don't think I'm 100% sure what the focus of "That [Neji] will be associating and being made rich from people from the progressive faction." is, but it should suffice as a draft. It's not in the plan yet, wanted to get thoughts first.
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I worry that us deliberately losing money to Kei ninja will come across as condescending, though I think that pointing out that the summon trade network would make bank is a good way to get them to join up. As a new clan, I'm sure their coffers are strained to hell and back and this would give them financial resources to match some of the older, more established clans.

As for bringing up the fact that "the Hyuuga's young and impressionable summoner is favored by his clan head and is also taking part." Sounds a little too manipulative to me and I'm not sure we want to be that open about such things. Even if we're circumspect, it would still make it look like Hazou is more self serving than he actually is. If we must go this route, then I say that we just say that Neji is also involved, under the pretense of listing what people she'll be expected to work with if she joins our business. If Aika's politically saavy --or has half a brain --then she'll realize the implications on her own.
 
RandomOTP said:
I worry that us deliberately losing money to Kei ninja will come across as condescending, though I think that pointing out that the summon trade network would make bank is a good way to get them to join up. As a new clan, I'm sure their coffers are strained to hell and back and this would give them financial resources to match some of the older, more established clans.
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I wouldn't call it condescending, necessarily; Hazou's been doing the whole gambling thing for quite some time, assuming he started then. To me, this seems a bit of a reinforcement of "Yes, we really do care about clanless ninja" stuff we've been doing since January.
RandomOTP said:
As for bringing up the fact that "the Hyuuga's young and impressionable summoner is favored by his clan head and is also taking part." Sounds a little too manipulative to me and I'm not sure we want to be that open about such things. Even if we're circumspect, it would still make it look like Hazou is more self serving than he actually is. If we must go this route, then I say that we just say that Neji is also involved, under the pretense of listing what people she'll be expected to work with if she joins our business. If Aika's politically saavy --or has half a brain --then she'll realize the implications on her own.
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This...does seem a bit manipulative, and it's labeled as risky for a reason. Maybe we could do your suggestion (list out other members of the scheme, including Neji), and if our prep suggests she's the sort willing to do this, mention it then? @Oneiros What are your thoughts?
 
RandomOTP said:
I worry that us deliberately losing money to Kei ninja will come across as condescending, though I think that pointing out that the summon trade network would make bank is a good way to get them to join up. As a new clan, I'm sure their coffers are strained to hell and back and this would give them financial resources to match some of the older, more established clans.
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An important distinction to make he is a KEI ninja (Koniha enlightenment initiative) not a member of the Kei clan. We also have been doing the gambling strategy since they came into existence
RandomOTP said:
As for bringing up the fact that "the Hyuuga's young and impressionable summoner is favored by his clan head and is also taking part." Sounds a little too manipulative to me and I'm not sure we want to be that open about such things. Even if we're circumspect, it would still make it look like Hazou is more self serving than he actually is. If we must go this route, then I say that we just say that Neji is also involved, under the pretense of listing what people she'll be expected to work with if she joins our business. If Aika's politically saavy --or has half a brain --then she'll realize the implications on her own.
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I think you might be missing some context. The Minami are a branch of the Hyūga. The Hyūga and Minami hate each other. If we don't address this it's likely to blow up in our face. But if we let them know we are planning to use Neji to influence the Hyūga (which we are) they should be much more willing to play ball
 
Oneiros said:
An important distinction to make he is a KEI ninja (Koniha enlightenment initiative) not a member of the Kei clan. We also have been doing the gambling strategy since they came into existence
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Oh, I thought he was a member of the clan. In that case, I'm okay with it. I was a little worried that Hazou doing that for a Kei clan member would be seen as him lording his money over them.

Oneiros said:
I think you might be missing some context. The Minami are a branch of the Hyūga. The Hyūga and Minami hate each other. If we don't address this it's likely to blow up in our face. But if we let them know we are planning to use Neji to influence the Hyūga (which we are) they should be much more willing to play ball
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I know the context, but I worry that being open about manipulation will give the impression that Hazou is self serving and that impression hurts our Uplift movement as a whole, since it seems like Hazou is doing it because it benefits him, personally. Even if we say "we're going to manipulate this young man so that we can indirectly manipulate the Hyuuga" there's still the fact that we're admitting to --or at least implying that --manipulation. Bad optics, and that's something we definitely don't need right now --for Hazou, personally, or the wider Goketsu clan as a whole.

I say we only mention Neji's participation. Aika should realize the implications of that, and if she doesn't then those she answers to --clan elders, advisors, etc --will. If they're all that obtuse --rather than being consciously/deliberately so, so as to not "give away the game" --then we can try and be a little less circumspect. But Hazou already has a reputation for...
  1. Being a foreign immigrant
    1. implying divided loyalties
  2. Going behind the Hokage's back
    1. implying no loyalty
  3. Getting out of a killbox by the skin of his teeth
    1. implying a manipulative nature of such prowess that Hazou was able to pull one over on the Hokage and be declared innocent when everyone knows that he was very much guilty
  4. Having radical ideas about clanless ninja and "worthless mudfeet."
I'm worried that, if we're not careful, we'll add "possibly back-stabbing" to that list. That'll probably be enough for all of Leaf to write the Goketsu off as a failed experiment to see if non-Leaf natives are capable of embracing the Will of Fire. Followed by lots of blood, death, and screaming.
 
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RandomOTP said:
I know the context, but I worry that being open about manipulation will give the impression that Hazou is self serving and that impression hurts our Uplift movement as a whole, since it seems like Hazou is doing it because it benefits him, personally. Even if we say "we're going to manipulate this young man so that we can indirectly manipulate the Hyuuga" there's still the fact that we're admitting to --or at least implying that --manipulation. Bad optics, and that's something we definitely don't need right now --for Hazou, personally, or the wider Goketsu clan as a whole.
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Yes because clearly we running the most vile of campaigns that will see us destroyed because we want to be friends with someone important. We truly are the blackest of villains because we are willing to use the most common form of interaction to advance our noble goals.

Like if we where planning to conspire to blackmail Neji you might have a point but I would have no problem if this got out.
 
Oneiros said:
Yes because clearly we running the most vile of campaigns that will see us destroyed because we want to be friends with someone important. We truly are the blackest of villains because we are willing to use the most common form of interaction to advance our noble goals.

Like if we where planning to conspire to blackmail Neji you might have a point but I would have no problem if this got out.
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*Shrug*
I just worry that we'll build up too much of a negative reputation and that's going to get Hazou kicked out of the Clan Head position, ostracize the Goketsu, and cripple Uplift as a whole.

And we already have enough going against us (partially our fault, partially circumstantial) that, until we win back the points those letters lost us, I could see the next rumor being the one that breaks the camel's back.

I think the same points we used with Neji will work here (Asuma-favored, if not right out ordered, lots of money, etc) and that the whole manipulation angle can be scaled back to a knowing look or a brief mention of our current Summoner roster while still achieving the same effect.
 
@Oneiros @RandomOTP What are your thoughts on this, then? I've only really made changes to the 'mention Neji' thing.
  • Convince Ruri and Aika to join the Seventh Path trade.
    • Gather intel on their personalities/socioeconomic life beforehand. Optimize with Mari before implementing.
      • If she deems it necessary, get Noburi or Keiko to go instead.
    • Generally speaking, mimic our meeting with Neji, but fine-tune things towards them specifically.
      • Ruri: Tone of friendship and cooperation; act as equals.
        • Meet in a tavern, let Ruri see us losing to KEI-nin gambling.
        • Focus on our connections through the KEI, and how we want to see them prosper.
        • Highlight the injustice between clan-/clanless ninja.
          • Did they spend unnecessary time as a 'special jonin'?
      • Aika: Tone of contrition and respect.
        • Request that we meet in their compound, the seat of their power.
        • Nikkō died saving us and we've tried to repay that ever since. We're glad the Porcupine Scroll we brought went to the Minami.
        • Them joining the venture will be but a small payment to what they've already given.
        • Bring up how the Turtle Summoner (Hyūga Neji) plans on participating. Depending on our read on Aika, point out how the scheme grants us opportunities to influence him, and his cousin/clan head through him.
 
faflec said:
@Oneiros @RandomOTP What are your thoughts on this, then? I've only really made changes to the 'mention Neji' thing.
  • Convince Ruri and Aika to join the Seventh Path trade.
    • Gather intel on their personalities/socioeconomic life beforehand. Optimize with Mari before implementing.
      • If she deems it necessary, get Noburi or Keiko to go instead.
    • Generally speaking, mimic our meeting with Neji, but fine-tune things towards them specifically.
      • Ruri: Tone of friendship and cooperation; act as equals.
        • Meet in a tavern, let Ruri see us losing to KEI-nin gambling.
        • Focus on our connections through the KEI, and how we want to see them prosper.
        • Highlight the injustice between clan-/clanless ninja.
          • Did they spend unnecessary time as a 'special jonin'?
      • Aika: Tone of contrition and respect.
        • Request that we meet in their compound, the seat of their power.
        • Nikkō died saving us and we've tried to repay that ever since. We're glad the Porcupine Scroll we brought went to the Minami.
        • Them joining the venture will be but a small payment to what they've already given.
        • Bring up how the Turtle Summoner (Hyūga Neji) plans on participating. Depending on our read on Aika, point out how the scheme grants us opportunities to influence him, and his cousin/clan head through him.
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Works for me
 
faflec said:
@Oneiros @RandomOTP What are your thoughts on this, then? I've only really made changes to the 'mention Neji' thing.
  • Convince Ruri and Aika to join the Seventh Path trade.
    • Gather intel on their personalities/socioeconomic life beforehand. Optimize with Mari before implementing.
      • If she deems it necessary, get Noburi or Keiko to go instead.
    • Generally speaking, mimic our meeting with Neji, but fine-tune things towards them specifically.
      • Ruri: Tone of friendship and cooperation; act as equals.
        • Meet in a tavern, let Ruri see us losing to KEI-nin gambling.
        • Focus on our connections through the KEI, and how we want to see them prosper.
        • Highlight the injustice between clan-/clanless ninja.
          • Did they spend unnecessary time as a 'special jonin'?
      • Aika: Tone of contrition and respect.
        • Request that we meet in their compound, the seat of their power.
        • Nikkō died saving us and we've tried to repay that ever since. We're glad the Porcupine Scroll we brought went to the Minami.
        • Them joining the venture will be but a small payment to what they've already given.
        • Bring up how the Turtle Summoner (Hyūga Neji) plans on participating. Depending on our read on Aika, point out how the scheme grants us opportunities to influence him, and his cousin/clan head through him.
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Same here ^.^
 
Here is the current plan, with details majorly fleshed out thanks to @Oneiros. We still have a lot of space to add details, so please feel free to ping me with ideas.
faflec said:
Not the greatest plan, but the outline is good enough for me to be posting this. I don't think there are other pressing things we need to do before we go to the iron mine?

[X] Action Plan: The Days Before The Journey
Word Count: 221
  • Let Asuma know about Sadaharu's disappearance, it is concerning.
  • Enable the koi pond.
  • Convince Ruri and Aika to join the Seventh Path trade.
    • Prep: Gather intel on their personalities/socioeconomic life. Optimize with Mari before implementing.
      • If she deems it necessary, get Noburi or Keiko to go instead.
    • Generally speaking, mimic our meeting with Neji, but fine-tune things towards them specifically.
      • Ruri: Tone of friendship and cooperation; act as equals.
        • Meet in a tavern, let Ruri see us losing to KEI-nin gambling.
        • Focus on our connections through the KEI, and how we want to see them prosper.
        • Highlight the injustice between clan-/clanless ninja.
          • Did they spend unnecessary time as a 'special jonin'?
      • Aika: Tone of contrition and respect.
        • Request that we meet in their compound, the seat of their power.
        • Nikkō died saving us and we've tried to repay that ever since. We're glad the Porcupine Scroll we brought went to the Minami.
        • Them joining the venture will be but a small payment to what they've already given.
        • Bring up how the Turtle Summoner (Hyūga Neji) plans on participating. Depending on our read on Aika, point out how the scheme grants us opportunities to influence him, and his cousin/clan head through him.
  • Misc:
    • Finish the chakdar seal.
    • Take Candoru hunting in the Forest of Death as a milk run.
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faflec said:
Here is the current plan, with details majorly fleshed out thanks to @Oneiros. We still have a lot of space to add details, so please feel free to ping me with ideas.
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Do you think Noburi could help set up the koi pond? He didn't specialize in it, but whatever bits of knowledge Noburi might have from clan cultural osmosis might be better than having the junior fish guy do it all alone. If nothing else, it's a dedicated second pair of hands that isn't too likely to screw up on accident.
 
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