RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

soulcake · Apr 21, 2020

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On Thread Etiquette:
I'm not going to weigh in on the logic of either side's arguments, but I will ask that everyone read over what they write and really consider if the words they used are polite and won't be inflammatory intentionally or not. You cant account for people's tolerances perfectly but at least try to say your piece without saying things that can be easily construed as overly dismissive of the other side of the argument, thank you.

Please endeavour to be cordial. :^)

Alratan · Apr 6, 2020

IF we want something that would naturally regrow, perhaps the golem could be partially made of silver wutroth.

BungieONI · Apr 6, 2020

Alratan said:
The Master Rune of Waking is noted to be a particularly rare rune, so I strongly doubt most runesmiths can make them, so I suspect we'd have to invest effort to spread it as well if we want there to be large numbers of golems about.

Being part of fixed defences for a known location is very different to being able to operate on an arbitrary set of battlefields, I feel.

Given this is Warhammer, you sometimes need to kill or at least survive fighting very hard targets. There are many occasions where taking out the latest Everchosen or the Greater Daemon is the strategic victory, and for many of things would be much easier to kill if you can combone the skill of a dwarf lord with the sheer power of a golem.

And that's oft done by people, quite successfully, by folks who aren't in what is basically power armor.

The example of the two Gronti being made is empirical evidence that at least some people other than us in Kraka Drakk know how to make them and that's really all I need to know. And the thing with having the skill of a Dwarf lord and the sheer power of a golem on the battlefield, is that you can just put them both on the battlefield and have threats from two directions instead of one. A strategic/tactical improvement depending on the scale of the dwarf lord and the golem.

Alratan said:
Given that we've just had clarification that the Apprentices wouldn't leave this turn, isn't Plan Leaving the nest Underway obsolete?

Them leaving the Hold is separate from releasing them from Apprenticeship. Just means they'd be starting their Journeymanships in Kraka Drakk and staying there till they can leave safely.

jwolfe_beta · Apr 6, 2020

[X] Plan Leaving the nest Underway +Proper Apprentice Actions

Snorri: "Alright you lazy beardlings; shift over and let your elder show you how a proper dwarf digs a tunnel."

masterofmadness said:
Then when they see other enemy races doing it like human (Pre-empire or Norscan), or Orcs an eventually elves they think 'look at those crazy people riding animals' and now it is a mark of pride so they never change.

To me it's more that the dwarfs prefer a semi-static method of warfare. When they can, they force the enemy to come to them while war machines pound away and quarrelers take pot-shots. So by the time the enemy reach the (very strong) shieldwall, they're battered, weakened and the dwarfs start turning them into firewood when the charge is rebuffed.

BungieONI said:
A lot of Golems in lore are described as being actively controlled by a Runelord as a mount.

Bit more like the Admech and thier robots:

"Behind the thick infantry formations, he heard the slow tread of the gronti-duraz. Through the dense earth he could feel the tremor of their footfalls as the low, sombre chanting of their masters animated them. Thurgin was glad to have the stone-clad behemoths at his back." pp. 13 'The great betrayal'

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"Behind the stout phalanxes of dwarf warriors leading the attack, Snorri saw giants. Creations of stone and metal, these ancient golems were slow to rise and quick to slumber. Only the most powerful runelords could rouse them. Like the anvils, they were magical machineries fashioned by the supreme artifice of rune masters. The craft to forge them anew was lost, but the gronti-duraz lived still. It meant 'enduring giant' in the dwarf tongue." pp. 24 'The great betrayal'

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Less riding the golems as compared to remote-controlling the things.

BungieONI said:
Leaving only a single rune slot for use making it good at being a big face smashing golem. So faced with this issue I thought to myself "Well people are going to want to do sapient golem shenanigans because of giant robot ideas soooo what do? Ah Rune of Fortitude, something interesting might happen and if it doesn't oh well it's still tough and good with the Heart". Put another way, even if the Rune of Fortitude makes doesn't make it sapient, it makes it a better golem, especially with the Heart.

There's another possibility if we can leverage the Rune of Brotherhood. Put that on the golem and then link it to a helmet or some other piece of gear that a dwarf wears. As a result the golem can use the dwarf's skill at combat/take more direct orders making it a better fighter. And when the fight's over simply direct the thing back home and take off the helmet. Gets a similar effect without the pitfalls of dealing with a sentient golem.

tri2 · Apr 6, 2020

jwolfe_beta said:
[X] Plan Leaving the nest Underway

Snorri: "Alright you lazy beardlings; shift over and let your elder show you how a proper dwarf digs a tunnel."

To me it's more that the dwarfs prefer a semi-static method of warfare. When they can, they force the enemy to come to them while war machines pound away and quarrelers take pot-shots. So by the time the enemy reach the (very strong) shieldwall, they're battered, weakened and the dwarfs start turning them into firewood when the charge is rebuffed.

Bit more like the Admech and thier robots:

Less riding the golems as compared to remote-controlling the things.

There's another possibility if we can leverage the Rune of Brotherhood. Put that on the golem and then link it to a helmet or some other piece of gear that a dwarf wears. As a result the golem can use the dwarf's skill at combat/take more direct orders making it a better fighter. And when the fight's over simply direct the thing back home and take off the helmet. Gets a similar effect without the pitfalls of dealing with a sentient golem.

so basically remote piloting?

Adhoc vote count started by BungieONI on Apr 6, 2020 at 6:41 PM, finished with 160 posts and 13 votes.

12 people have voted
[X] Plan Leaving the nest Underway
-[X] Teach your apprentices. [Cost: 1 Action] Locked in for 0 turns. Apprentices can now be released into the world
-- [X] Release them: Your bumbling charges are now of an age where they can begin the journeyman's trial. It will be perilous, but considering the state of things right now, its unlike they'll leave the immediate area or the hold for a while yet. [Cost: 2 apprentice actions permanently] Action cost will switch to Snerra
-[X] Teach your apprentice. [Cost: 2 Apprentice Actions] Locked in for 2 turns.
-[X] [Simple] The Underway: King Otrek does not mince words, he wants the connection to the Underway ready as soon as possible. The number of monsters that are appearing have not only forced the throng into ever increasing levels of conflict, but slowed overland travel and trade to a near standstill. The north is effectively being cut off from the rest of the Karaz Ankor inch by inch. He is calling any aid a dwarf can provide in excavating the connection south. [Cost: variable normal and apprentice actions] Productivity Like No Other will proc. 2 Progress per action, 1 progress per apprentice action. 17 out of (25+ 15[Delayed South]) =40 Progress. 5 progress a turn regardless of input.
1 people have voted
[X] 4 actions, 1 Apprentice action
- LordEdric
1 people have voted
[X] Plan All in Tunnel
-[X] Teach your apprentices. [Cost: 1 Action] Locked in for 0 turns. Apprentices can now be released into the world
--[X] Hold them
-[X] Teach your apprentice. [Cost: 2 Apprentice Actions] Locked in for 2 turns.
-[X] [Simple] The Underway
--[X] 4 Actions + 2 apprentice actions
- tri2

BungieONI · Apr 6, 2020

jwolfe_beta said:
There's another possibility if we can leverage the Rune of Brotherhood. Put that on the golem and then link it to a helmet or some other piece of gear that a dwarf wears. As a result the golem can use the dwarf's skill at combat/take more direct orders making it a better fighter. And when the fight's over simply direct the thing back home and take off the helmet. Gets a similar effect without the pitfalls of dealing with a sentient golem.

Yeah, pretty much.

Alratan · Apr 6, 2020

BungieONI said:
And that's oft done by people, quite successfully, by folks who aren't in what is basically power armor.

The example of the two Gronti being made is empirical evidence that at least some people other than us in Kraka Drakk know how to make them and that's really all I need to know. And the thing with having the skill of a Dwarf lord and the sheer power of a golem on the battlefield, is that you can just put them both on the battlefield and have threats from two directions instead of one. A strategic/tactical improvement depending on the scale of the dwarf lord and the golem.

It's not often done, to be honest. It's a feat that the very greatest heroes in the setting occasionally manage and often die in the process. Everchosen and things like exalted greater daemons are incredibly dangerous.

And come on. You said most other runesmiths know how to make them. One other runesmith in Kraka Dragg may know how to make them, and we're told they're rare. And dwarf lord skill x golem power should be greater than dwarf lord skill + golem power.

BungieONI said:
Them leaving the Hold is separate from releasing them from Apprenticeship. Just means they'd be starting their Journeymanships in Kraka Drakk and staying there till they can leave safely. As Journeymen.

I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about this:

soulcake said:
note guys, if you release them you'll still have two apprentice actions THIS turn. You'll lose em end of this turn and suffer the action loss next turn.

fictionfan · Apr 6, 2020

Plan still hasn't been fixed?

EVA-Saiyajin · Apr 6, 2020

Seeing as we'll have two points of overflow if we put our singular Apprentice action into it next turnwith the current favored plan, what happens next turn? Research, or creation?

Alratan · Apr 6, 2020

fictionfan said:
Plan still hasn't been fixed?

No, it hasn't. Currently the prevailing vote is for the apprentices to do nothing this turn.

EVA-Saiyajin said:
Seeing as we'll have two points of overflow if we put our singular Apprentice action into it next turnwith the current favored plan, what happens next turn? Research, or creation?

Go all in on the Underway again and get truly ludicrous levels of overflow?

[X] Plan All In
-[X] Teach your apprentices. [Cost: 1 Action] Locked in for 0 turns. Apprentices can now be released into the world
-- [X] Release them: Your bumbling charges are now of an age where they can begin the journeyman's trial. It will be perilous, but considering the state of things right now, its unlike they'll leave the immediate area or the hold for a while yet. [Cost: 2 apprentice actions permanently] Action cost will switch to Snerra
-[X] Teach your apprentice. [Cost: 2 Apprentice Actions] Locked in for 2 turns.
-[X] [Simple] The Underway: King Otrek does not mince words, he wants the connection to the Underway ready as soon as possible. The number of monsters that are appearing have not only forced the throng into ever increasing levels of conflict, but slowed overland travel and trade to a near standstill. The north is effectively being cut off from the rest of the Karaz Ankor inch by inch. He is calling any aid a dwarf can provide in excavating the connection south. [Cost: variable normal and apprentice actions] Productivity Like No Other will proc. 2 Progress per action, 1 progress per apprentice action. 17 out of (25+ 15[Delayed South]) =40 Progress. 5 progress a turn regardless of input.
-- [X] Four Snorri actions, two apprentice

Red Bovine · Apr 6, 2020

Derpmind said:
I think people are severely underestimating using the heart for a healing banner. A healing banner can be used to give superhealing both in and outside war. Medicine in this era isn't that advanced; outside of magic healing the options are pretty limited. But a super-healing banner could be used to heal a ton of dwarves. Moreover it can apply that healing to an entire army during battle. A super-golem might be powerful in battle, but a super-healing banner could save thousands of dwarf lives, maybe tens of thousands or more if it really does last forever. I'd rather prevent death for thousands than preserve one golem, because no matter how killy that golem is it will know only war.

Just going to out and say it but screw 'for the Hold' reasoning for every single argument in regards to absolutely everything we do. Sorry but that just going to be blunt here. Seriously, every single time someone brings up a cool and awesome idea people want to go the more boring route with these kinds of things, which wouldn't be much of a problem if people didn't insist on it all the damn time. It's gotten to the point that people literally insisted that we should spend freaking turns on building a tunnel along with dropping everything else.

Really, we have consistently done a lot of things for the hold and invested a ton of actions in doing so. Meanwhile despite what people think there are tons of ways to help our dwarfs bros while having a ton of fun. Not to mention facts like we can literally make healing banners without using the heart even if it wouldn't be as good. Basically rather we go with the more interesting, awesome and fun options more often because people usually participate in quests to have fun and people prefer not to turn it into a chore.

Thomasfoolery · Apr 6, 2020

[X] Plan Leaving the nest Underway +Proper Apprentice Actions
-[X] Teach your apprentices
-- [X] Release them
-[X] [Simple] The Underway: 4 Snorri actions, 2 Apprentice actions

Since we've been told that releasing them means releasing them at the end of the turn this is an updated plan properly assigning the actions.

EVA-Saiyajin · Apr 6, 2020

Alratan said:
No, it hasn't. Currently the prevailing vote is for the apprentices to do nothing this turn.

Go all in on the Underway again and get truly ludicrous levels of overflow?

[X] Plan All In
-[X] Teach your apprentices. [Cost: 1 Action] Locked in for 0 turns. Apprentices can now be released into the world
-- [X] Release them: Your bumbling charges are now of an age where they can begin the journeyman's trial. It will be perilous, but considering the state of things right now, its unlike they'll leave the immediate area or the hold for a while yet. [Cost: 2 apprentice actions permanently] Action cost will switch to Snerra
-[X] Teach your apprentice. [Cost: 2 Apprentice Actions] Locked in for 2 turns.
-[X] [Simple] The Underway: King Otrek does not mince words, he wants the connection to the Underway ready as soon as possible. The number of monsters that are appearing have not only forced the throng into ever increasing levels of conflict, but slowed overland travel and trade to a near standstill. The north is effectively being cut off from the rest of the Karaz Ankor inch by inch. He is calling any aid a dwarf can provide in excavating the connection south. [Cost: variable normal and apprentice actions] Productivity Like No Other will proc. 2 Progress per action, 1 progress per apprentice action. 17 out of (25+ 15[Delayed South]) =40 Progress. 5 progress a turn regardless of input.
-- [X] Four Snorri actions, two apprentice

If we're determined to maximize research into a golem/power armor via at LEAST three lines of research —@Weirdo i pray this hypothetical golem isn't sapient, that's just a troublesome can of worms. Sentient, maybe, but not sapient.— enter to double down on it with three actions on either Rune Metal or the Movement of Things, leaving the last for Underway overflow alongside the apprentice action. I'd like to have our greatest creation out before the Great Cataclysm ends if possible.

Havalt300 · Apr 6, 2020

Red Bovine said:
Just going to out and say it but screw 'for the Hold' reasoning for every single argument in regards to absolutely everything we do. Sorry but that just going to be blunt here. Seriously, every single time someone brings up a cool and awesome idea people want to go the more boring route with these kinds of things, which wouldn't be much of a problem if people didn't insist on it all the damn time. It's gotten to the point that people literally insisted that we should spend freaking turns on building a tunnel along with dropping everything else.

Really, we have consistently done a lot of things for the hold and invested a ton of actions in doing so. Meanwhile despite what people think there are tons of ways to help our dwarfs bros while having a ton of fun. Not to mention facts like we can literally make healing banners without using the heart even if it wouldn't be as good. Basically rather we go with the more interesting, awesome and fun options more often because people usually participate in quests to have fun and people prefer not to turn it into a chore.

For dwarfs everything is for the Hold!!!

tri2 · Apr 6, 2020

I want to train our apprentices for a few more turns, get them proper ready for a more dangerous world

BungieONI · Apr 6, 2020

Alratan said:
I'm not talking about that. I'm talking about this:

That just means the plan maker needs to update their plan is all.

Alratan said:
It's not often done, to be honest. It's a feat that the very greatest heroes in the setting occasionally manage. Everchosen and things like exalted greater daemons are incredibly dangerous.

And come on. You said most other runesmiths know how to make them. One other runesmith in Kraka Dragg may know how to make them, and we're told they're rare. And dwarf lord skill x golem power should be greater than dwarf lord skill + golem power.

It was two. So that's three in Kraka Drakk, including Snorri.

soulcake said:
The Pure Gromril Foundry becomes central to the area's defense, bolt thrower emplacements are laid down, and to your surprise, two enterprising Master Runesmiths build three-meter tall Gronti to stand guard on either side of the door as well.

I might be wrong in that most know how to make them, in which case my bad, but I think the central point of my comment stands. Runesmiths know how to make golems but golem armor creation would be something we have to teach. Golems are a thing that is already known, basically.

That makes teaching golem-armor creation both fraught, because of the secrecy of Runecraft, and a great deal of overhead on the project when we can just make a golem and watch as other Runesmiths also make their own after getting inspired and we don't have to deal with churning out golem armors our-self until we can teach someone to make them.

[X] Plan Leaving the nest Underway +Proper Apprentice Actions
-[X] Teach your apprentices
-- [X] Release them
-[X] [Simple] The Underway: 4 Snorri actions, 2 Apprentice actions

Thank you @Thomasfoolery.

Chimeraguard · Apr 6, 2020

[X] Plan Underway: Mostly All In
-[X] Teach your apprentices
-- [X] Release them
-[X] [Simple] The Underway: 4 Snorri actions, 1 Apprentice action
-[X] [Simple] Apprentice work: 1 Apprentice action

Alternate plan since there's 2 Apprentice Actions. 4 Snorri Actions and 1 Apprentice Action will already bring the remaining progress down to 5, which can be finished next turn by the Hold's efforts alone. The additional Apprentice Action is good for Fun Overflow Results.

This Plan is for if we don't want to do more work to Overflow on the Underway next turn, and instead want to do something else. In which case, the spare Apprentice Action goes onto Apprentice Work for maximum efficiency (and sadly, less fun Overflow results.)

kobo · Apr 6, 2020

[X] Plan Leaving the nest Underway +Proper Apprentice Actions
-[X] Teach your apprentices
-- [X] Release them
-[X] [Simple] The Underway: 4 Snorri actions, 2 Apprentice actions

[X] Plan Leaving the nest Underway

Mount. Elements · Apr 6, 2020

@LordEdric, it looks like you didn't put "-" in front of "[X] 4 actions, 1 Apprentice action" so the tally isn't counting it as part of the same plan.

Thomasfoolery · Apr 6, 2020

Chimeraguard said:
Alternate plan since there's 2 Apprentice Actions. 4 Snorri Actions and 1 Apprentice Action will already bring the remaining progress down to 5, which can be finished next turn by natural work.

The reason I put both of them on it is because I think there's a chance a good RER will contribute some additional progress to it from the other holds this turn. So wanted it as easy for that to complete it as possible.

thefoolswriter · Apr 6, 2020

[X] Plan Leaving the nest Underway +Proper Apprentice Actions

EVA-Saiyajin · Apr 6, 2020

[X] Plan More Dramatic to Sprint Last:
-[X] Teach your apprentices
-- [X] Release them
-[X] [Simple] The Underway: 1 Snorri action, 2 Apprentice actions
- [X] The Rune Metal Pt. 4: You've made Adamant, a form of Gromril harder and stronger than any you've ever seen. The metal abhors magic, even that of Runes to some extent[Cost: 8 actions] Student of the Odd and Mind of Metal will proc. 3 actions

The idea is to make our big, all in push next turn, really pedal to the metal to get over the finish line from closer to the halfway mark, as opposed to working hard now and then just sort of mosying over.

[X] Plan Hi Ho! Hi Ho! To Off Some Daemons we Go!
-[X] Teach your apprentices
-- [X] Release them
-[X] [Simple] The Underway: 1 Snorri action, 2 Apprentice actions
- [X] [Difficult] A Higher Standard Pt. 1: You've gazed upon the face of the Ancestors a lot in the past few years, especially when you were making your alchemical flame spitters, and it's inspired you. A banner to rally behind, something that dwarfs will look to and fight all the harder with it at their back. A banner worthy of the hold of Kraka Drakk to be held aloft with pride by an equally worthy standard bearer. [Cost: 1 action] If a rune you want requires special ingredients that you don't have access to I will alert you.
-- [X] 3 actions, Master Rune of Valaya, Rune of Grungni, Rune of Spellbreaking

Same reasoning as above, different actions. I've made my case for the Ancestor Anti-Daemon thing before multiple times.

fictionfan · Apr 6, 2020

[X] Plan Leaving the nest Underway +Proper Apprentice Actions

[X] Plan Leaving the nest Underway

Andmeuths · Apr 6, 2020

[X] Plan Leaving the nest Underway +Proper Apprentice Actions

[X] Plan More Dramatic to Sprint Last:

Why are we voting for a plan that basically flushes AP down the drain, by basically making our senior Apprentices do nothing for the last turn, which has no guarantee to be fixed? I know that tactical voting is a thing, but voting for our senior apprentices to do nothing just feels wasteful.

@LordEdric Your plan still has one more unassigned apprentice action, as per QM clarification. This is the last turn we have 2 apprentice actions, and we will release our senior apprentices at the end of the turn.

Honestly, I'd would have like to have held the apprentices until the Underway was complete, since narratively, the Underway was their final test, and it isn't over yet. Indeed, the Underway as their graduating test is an assignment that I think is a massive compliment to their skills. But one last turn putting the Underway close to completion is good enough for me.

UlseDovThur · Apr 6, 2020

[X] Plan More Dramatic to Sprint Last:

This is objectively better. If we do the all in on the underway next turn we'll get overflow bonuses.

DocMatoi · Apr 6, 2020

Garlak said:
. You know, when the Griffon appeared in the update, I immediately wondered to myself: 'What would happen if we fed the Greedy Heart to it?'

Assuming we were somehow able to get the friendship and alliance of Griffons, then... ... Well actually... I wonder if the Griffon would become intelligent enough to speak, if it ate the Greedy Heart? If so, that'd be cool.

A Griffon Lord. A king of beasts of the sky.

butterfly away gyrocopters and get Griffon Bombers

RHUNRIKKI STROLLAR (Warhammer Fantasy Golden Age Dwarf Runelord Quest)

Seven gremlins in a trench coat

Semi Genre-Savvy Overlord

Seven gremlins in a trench coat

Please sir, may I have some Meows?

Seven gremlins in a trench coat

We do deserve to exist.

Please sir, may I have some Meows?

Theoretical Lover of Girls