Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

• Be polite, be respectful
• He seems willing to engage on equal footing, but use IN before reacting if he says something you don't like. Not to be hard to read, but because you've been careless with words before.
• We're only alive because he wants us to be.
• He's asking to justify our proposal for Pax Akatsuki - and why we should be involved at all.
• Get impassioned. Why Uplift?
• Incidentally, Haru better be good at OPSEC, because we're about to blow it.

• A logical argument is most likely to work.
  • Though he is anguished about his lost friends and failed dreams - be mindful.
• He has a sense of justice. He seems to value individual responsibility for mistakes.
  • Our goals are aligned with his, and we're doing work to achieve them.
  • While we have made mistakes, we have a way of improving the world that we think will work.
  • If he lets us do this, or better yet empowers us, we will improve his ability to achieve his goals.
• We probably have common ground.
  • Nagato's philosophy was very appealing to us. We sadly learned too late.
  • We've personally seen why that philosophy is important in our travels around the EN.

• We want to improve the world in distinct and relevant ways. We are doing this in a structured manner.
• We are sensible and straightforward about this. It's important to us, and we take it seriously.
• We've made mistakes and done things we regret. We take responsibility for them, but continue towards our goals, because that's how we can make amends.

• We didn't know Akatsuki's plan.
  • To us, you provoked instability by preying on secretive ninja culture. We barely prevented war between Leaf and Mist in your wake.
  • We went to Leaf because Jiraiya honestly wanted a world without fighting. You know that from his students, Konan and Nagato.
  • We may have misjudged the path to peace. With respect, we still don't know Akatsuki's plan, so we can't judge that.
• Even within the current regime, the world can be improved.
  • Many ninja powers are better suited to creation than destruction.
  • Villages dance to economics and politics. These are tools to weaken war hawks and strengthen diplomats.
  • We're already doing this in Leaf. Using techniques to provide people with housing and water. Promoting trade across borders. Ensuring Leaf doesn't see open war with Rock.
  • This is how we can give justice to the people.
  • This is why you can trust us. Because we see that the world is broken, and we want to see it fixed.
• You have more power than us.
  • You can do more than guide people towards peace, you can enforce it.
  • This isn't enough. A ruling Omnikage will eventually perish, and the hatred of the world, once held static, will flow forth anew.
  • We need to change people, from the bottom-up, until we reach a point where going to war is as unthinkable as killing a newborn.
  • But that won't happen on its own. Born and raised to be hate-filled, or worse, mindless killers, the children of this world will never see peace as an option.
• We need both.
  • We need someone to lift the burden of bloodshed from the world, so people can learn that there's more to life than preparing for the next battle.
• We have reason to hate each other.
  • We both think that the world's best shot at peace was put to death at the other's hands.
  • But we cannot fall into the cycle of retaliation. This is the blindness of the world as-is.
  • I'm willing to put my hate aside and work with you.
  • If you want to walk away from us, that's fine.
  • I know we share the desire to do the right thing, at any cost.
  • I will do my best to save the world. I ask you to do the same.

• More cleaning and conciseness.
• Better rhetoric.
• More emotional appeals, but subtle ones. I suspect Itachi will not take lightly to us trying to press buttons based in his trauma and anguish.
• Better incorporating the Speech bit with the Presentation bit.
• Ways to adapt on the fly.
• Anything else you want to add.

Roomba said:

I... actually don't like being overly analytical here. Akatsuki members should be the exact kinds of people who would properly engage with Hazou's ideas, which the rest of the ninja world considers eccentric at best and subversively crazy and traitorous at worst. Let's just make a good, honest pitch, holding nothing back. Play to win. They could be the most loyal and powerful allies we could possibly ask for, but we can't get there by being manipulative and cautious, I think.

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Paperclipped said:

[X] Action Plan: A New Justice
Word Count: 643 (-3 XP)

Dispel

Attitude

• Be polite, be respectful
• He seems willing to engage on equal footing, but use IN before reacting if he says something you don't like. Not to be hard to read, but because you've been careless with words before.
• We're only alive because he wants us to be.
• He's asking to justify our proposal for Pax Akatsuki - and why we should be involved at all.
• Get impassioned. Why Uplift?
• Incidentally, Haru better be good at OPSEC, because we're about to blow it.

Thinking

• Itachi wants order and logic, not a strong emotional appeal.
  • Though he is anguished about his lost friends and failed dreams - be mindful.
• Except to his sense of justice. He might want the ninja world in general, and us specifically, punished.
  • Framing: even though we erred, he would be doing wrong by the world to end us.
• He's being held back from meting out punishment unto the world by his desire to do a greater good.
  • He thought Akatsuki was his highest-impact way to achieve peace.
  • Now, he's laying low while he figures out what to do with his power.

Narrative Structure: (Sorry about Akatsuki, we're not evil) -> (We're doing good within Leaf) -> (Power alone is not enough) -> (Our way is not enough) -> (Together, they have a shot) -> (Even if we don't work together, our goals are aligned)

Presentation

• We want to improve the world in distinct and relevant ways. We are doing this in a structured manner.
• We are sensible and straightforward about this. It's important to us, and we take it seriously.
• We've made mistakes and done things we regret. We take responsibility for them, but continue towards our goals, because that's how we can make amends.

Speech

• We didn't know Akatsuki's plan.
  • To us, you provoked instability by preying on secretive ninja culture. We barely prevented war between Leaf and Mist in your wake.
  • We went to Leaf because Jiraiya honestly wanted a world without fighting. You know that from his students, Konan and Nagato.
  • We may have misjudged the path to peace. With respect, we still don't know Akatsuki's plan, so we can't judge that.
• Even within the current regime, the world can be improved.
  • Many ninja powers are better suited to creation than destruction.
  • Villages dance to economics and politics. These are tools to weaken war hawks and strengthen diplomats.
  • We're already doing this in Leaf. Using techniques to provide people with housing and water. Promoting trade across borders. Ensuring Leaf doesn't see open war with Rock.
  • This is how we can give justice to the people.
• You have more power than us.
  • You can do more than guide people towards peace, you can enforce it.
  • This isn't enough. A ruling Omnikage will eventually perish, and the hatred of the world, once held static, will flow forth anew.
  • We need to change people, from the bottom-up, until we reach a point where going to war is as unthinkable as killing a newborn.
  • But that won't happen on its own. Born and raised to be hate-filled, or worse, mindless killers, the children of this world will never see peace as an option.
• We need both.
  • We need someone to lift the burden of bloodshed from the world, so people can learn that there's more to life than preparing for the next battle.
• We have reason to hate each other.
  • We both think that the world's best shot at peace was put to death at the other's hands.
  • But we cannot fall into the cycle of retaliation. This is the blindness of the world as-is.
  • I'm willing to put my hate aside and work with you.
  • If you want to walk away from us, that's fine.
  • I know we share the desire to do the right thing, at any cost.
  • I will do my best to save the world. I ask you to do the same.

---

Lightly polished. This could use:

• More cleaning and conciseness.
• Better rhetoric.
• More emotional appeals, but subtle ones. I suspect Itachi will not take lightly to us trying to press buttons based in his trauma and anguish.
• Better incorporating the Speech bit with the Presentation bit.
• Ways to adapt on the fly.
• Anything else you want to add.

One way you can help: What's the most likely way this goes wrong? What can we do to mitigate that?

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MadScientist said:

Do not dispel without asking first. When we dispelled when confronted with Oro, everyone else was aghast. This is apparently extremely rude. Itachi will not respond well to extreme rudeness. [Side note: also, I do not advise asking for permission to dispel. It has definite downsides in terms of how it frames the dynamic.] Other than that...

[X] Action Plan: A New Justice

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Paperclipped said:

That said, the party was distinctly a casual social event,

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Paperclipped said:

Thinking

• Itachi wants order and logic, not a strong emotional appeal.
  • Though he is anguished about his lost friends and failed dreams - be mindful.
• Except to his sense of justice. He might want the ninja world in general, and us specifically, punished.
  • Framing: even though we erred, he would be doing wrong by the world to end us.
• He's being held back from meting out punishment unto the world by his desire to do a greater good.
  • He thought Akatsuki was his highest-impact way to achieve peace.
  • Now, he's laying low while he figures out what to do with his power.

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MMKII said:

I'm not sure I really agree with this.

Primarily, I think we should convince him that we have the same goals --or so it appears from our perspective--but that our views on methodology differ.

Appeals to emotion are a useful tactic here-- they convince the Itachi that we are not just another asshole ninja, because we will be saying things that no such individual would possibly have the perspective to say. So they are a necessary condition in that regard on some level. This is not to say we should wax on and on about things where doing so is mostly useless, or to just leave it at that.

Appeals to utility pretty much boil down to "You gain more from having me exist in the world (should our goals be mostly aligned) than not."

I think its quite possible we may be able to create some common ground that he would feel comfortable walking onto. I would wager that of the people following Mr. "Because we live in a broken world." (actually these should be among the first words said to the guy) who is also the guy that gave Hyuuga Hiashi the Billy Madison speech might have some experiences and opinions that run parallel with our own. We need only to frame it in a suitable way.

Ultimately I would like to signal:

(0) Our views on the current worldstate are similar to what we guesstimate theirs are, if not mostly the same.

(1) We are a (mostly) benevolent agent thats made some mistakes--mostly as a result of ignorance and power dynamics.

(2) We have little power to create change in the world at large at the moment, hence us phoning them up to beg for aid.


We can highlight (0) and (1) easily enough just by recanting the MfD highlights reel with some commentary. (2) basically follows from this and a short explanation of why we sent the letter.

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Paperclipped said:

Does this hit the important notes better?

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MMKII said:

I don't really like the justice bit, nor do I really believe this to be true. I don't think this is about punishing the world or what have you.

Their motto was "Let me save lives or you will die." This isn't a Judge Dredd or Punisher type thing IMO.

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1. He seems to have this saying of "This, too, is part of my penance". While it's joking, it seems to come from a serious place, where he frames bad things that happen to him as a part of a just retribution.
2. "There are several respectable schools of thought that say it would be for the good of the world if you did not walk out of this room alive, or at least… unmodified." - it seems like he's compelled, on some level, by the idea that we should see some consequence for our actions.

Paperclipped said:

Hm. For whatever reason, dispelling when faced with extraordinary circumstances is seen as rude. That said, the party was distinctly a casual social event, while here, it was only moments ago that a scythe was swinging at our necks. Also, I feel like Itachi and Hidan will care relatively less about social norms. On margin, I'm still in favor of just doing a quick dispel to make sure. Anyone else have thoughts on this?

Out of game reasoning suggests that this isn't a genjutsu - unless EJ wants to write the update of "You dispel, here's the new situation, have another 3 days to plan."

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Paperclipped said:

He seems to have some notion that it's a proper part of the natural order that bad actions are repaid in kind.

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MMKII said:

Well, does it? The penance comment need not be read that way. He could believe that the natural order is entirely unfair and contain no inherent justice, yet take it upon himself to continuously attempt to atone for past wrongs or somesuch.

I wouldn't extrapolate tooooo much on his specific philosophical beliefs just yet. We can always ask him to expand on it later if its necessary.

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• Be polite, be respectful
• He seems willing to engage on equal footing, but use IN before reacting if he says something you don't like. Not to be hard to read, but because you've been careless with words before.
• We're only alive because he wants us to be.
• He's asking to justify our proposal for Pax Akatsuki - and why we should be involved at all.
• Get impassioned. Why Uplift?
• Incidentally, Haru better be good at OPSEC, because we're about to blow it.

• Itachi wants order and logic, not a strong emotional appeal.
  • Though he is anguished about his lost friends and failed dreams - be mindful.
• Except to his sense of justice. He might want the ninja world in general, and us specifically, punished.
  • Framing: even though we erred, he would be doing wrong by the world to end us.
• He's being held back from meting out punishment unto the world by his desire to do a greater good.
  • He thought Akatsuki was his highest-impact way to achieve peace.
  • Now, he's laying low while he figures out what to do with his power.

• We want to improve the world in distinct and relevant ways. We are doing this in a structured manner.
• We are sensible and straightforward about this. It's important to us, and we take it seriously.
• We've made mistakes and done things we regret. We take responsibility for them, but continue towards our goals, because that's how we can make amends.

• We didn't know Akatsuki's plan.
  • To us, you provoked instability by preying on secretive ninja culture. We barely prevented war between Leaf and Mist in your wake.
  • We went to Leaf because Jiraiya honestly wanted a world without fighting. You know that from his students, Konan and Nagato.
  • We may have misjudged the path to peace. With respect, we still don't know Akatsuki's plan, so we can't judge that.
• Even within the current regime, the world can be improved.
  • Many ninja powers are better suited to creation than destruction.
  • Villages dance to economics and politics. These are tools to weaken war hawks and strengthen diplomats.
  • We're already doing this in Leaf. Using techniques to provide people with housing and water. Promoting trade across borders. Ensuring Leaf doesn't see open war with Rock.
  • This is how we can give justice to the people.
• You have more power than us.
  • You can do more than guide people towards peace, you can enforce it.
  • This isn't enough. A ruling Omnikage will eventually perish, and the hatred of the world, once held static, will flow forth anew.
  • We need to change people, from the bottom-up, until we reach a point where going to war is as unthinkable as killing a newborn.
  • But that won't happen on its own. Born and raised to be hate-filled, or worse, mindless killers, the children of this world will never see peace as an option.
• We need both.
  • We need someone to lift the burden of bloodshed from the world, so people can learn that there's more to life than preparing for the next battle.
• We have reason to hate each other.
  • We both think that the world's best shot at peace was put to death at the other's hands.
  • But we cannot fall into the cycle of retaliation. This is the blindness of the world as-is.
  • I'm willing to put my hate aside and work with you.
  • If you want to walk away from us, that's fine.
  • I know we share the desire to do the right thing, at any cost.
  • I will do my best to save the world. I ask you to do the same.

faflec said:

• We didn't know Akatsuki's plan.
  • To us, you provoked instability by preying on secretive ninja culture. We barely prevented war between Leaf and Mist in your wake. Ring false. Since Leaf lured Mist into an ambush.
  • We went to Leaf because Jiraiya honestly wanted a world without fighting. You know that from his students, Konan and Nagato. Did Jiraiya? Also, we only know about Konan, but really almost nothing about her.
  • We may have misjudged the path to peace. With respect, we still don't know Akatsuki's plan, so we can't judge that.
• Even within the current regime, the world can be improved.
  • Many ninja powers are better suited to creation than destruction.
  • Villages dance to economics and politics. These are tools to weaken war hawks and strengthen diplomats.
  • We're already doing this in Leaf. Using techniques to provide people with housing and water. Promoting trade across borders. Ensuring Leaf doesn't see open war with Rock. We honestly didn't do much to prevent war from breaking out, but we're trying.
  • This is how we can give justice to the people.
• You have more power than us.
  • You can do more than guide people towards peace, you can enforce it.
  • This isn't enough. A ruling Omnikage will eventually perish, and the hatred of the world, once held static, will flow forth anew.
  • We need to change people, from the bottom-up, until we reach a point where going to war is as unthinkable as killing a newborn.
  • But that won't happen on its own. Born and raised to be hate-filled, or worse, mindless killers, the children of this world will never see peace as an option.
• We need both.
  • We need someone to lift the burden of bloodshed from the world, so people can learn that there's more to life than preparing for the next battle.
• We have reason to hate each other.
  • We both think that the world's best shot at peace was put to death at the other's hands.
  • But we cannot fall into the cycle of retaliation. This is the blindness of the world as-is.
  • I'm willing to put my hate aside and work with you.
  • If you want to walk away from us, that's fine.
  • I know we share the desire to do the right thing, at any cost.
  • I will do my best to save the world. I ask you to do the same.

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Oneiros said:

I will vote for a plan that has us give honey for The tea

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Inferno Vulpix said:

Hot take:

Most 'respectable lines of thought' in this world are essentially nationalistic jingoism. Point out to Itachi that if he wants to be any better than the people perpetuating this cycle of violence he'll need to evaluate us by radical lines of thought instead.

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faflec said:

ITACHI: Ok. *starts praying to Jashin*

HAZOU: ...uh, what is that prayer?

ITACHI: *finishes praying* It's to Lord Jashin, so that he may evaluate you in the afterlife.

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