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I disagree, it's more that Tsunade is pro-humanity. She'll treat anyone no matter their starion in life and believes in spreading medical knowledge throughout the world no matter the borders.
Anti-disease and pro-humanity with a focus on eradicating disease largely read the same to me. The point is, I find it difficult to believe that Tsunade would do anything less than immediately leave Leaf when she finds out we are intentionally spreading disease, regardless of the intended target.
 
Anti-disease and pro-humanity with a focus on eradicating disease largely read the same to me. The point is, I find it difficult to believe that Tsunade would do anything less than immediately leave Leaf when she finds out we are intentionally spreading disease, regardless of the intended target.

She explicitly said ninja don't give a fuck about people outside the village.
 
As far as the people who want Arikada's notes go, weren't those probably destroyed in the Collapse? All the other seals the Tower had were. Or do we think her seals might have been held somewhere else, like T&I?
 
[X] Action plan: Who let the dogs out + Necromancy

Clear with Mari as usual
  • Meet with Kei
    • We would like to send a message to the dog clan to negoitiate for there next summoner to be from the Goketsu, similar to how we did the Snakes.
      • If we're lucky, this will result in Kakashi showing up to claim our new estate. (joke)
    • Also while we have her ear, how likely does she think it would be for the Pangolin to give special dispensation to teach their techniques to specific individuals? What would we need to do for them for this?
      • He is, of course, talking about Naruto, but also... Orochimaru in particular showed interest in them. It's not his decision, of course -- it's hers -- but he'd be willing to give up an awful lot to have Orochimaru working on bringing Jiraiya back. Asuma as well, if we can swing that -- building our own S rank, as such.
    • Thank her for all the help she's given with dealing with our mental state. It has been super helpful
  • Clan heads
    • Have an informal meeting with all the teenage clan heads
    • We would like to bring a proposal to the clan council about expanding adoption oppurtunities
      • With the losses Konoha has taken we need more ninja who can perform at a peak level which clan training can provide
      • Plus no one would be taking a tax hit until we got back up to pre-collapse levels
  • Adoption targets [doesn't need to be on-screen]
    • Schedule a dinner with each of them individually
    • Goal is to get to know them and see how they interact with the clan, determine willingness to get along, ask Noda if she'd be willing to wait a year for the adoption to go through if we covered her expenses/debts and helped her recover, etc.
  • Figure out the whole Shimura estate deal
    • Talk to Asuma if he'd be the one to talk to about that, etc.
      • Point out that the estate was not in use and the one we bought before was not, in fact, a legal sale.
      • If Mari suggests it, we can push for getting the state free, otherwise, just ask that our payments toward Orochimaru's estate instead go to the Shimura one.
My plan's still here, folks! You're all welcome to vote for it :V
 
There's something Forbidden going on between the ISC clans, isn't there? I'm in favour of seducing Ino now. @Dictator4Hire, wanna start a conspiracy?

I am conflicted. On one hand, it is good if Hazo has some form of protection against unwanted mental intrusions. On the other hand, it would be quite frustrating if Hazo is unable to fully utilize best bride's full skill set including her wanted mental intrusions. I still want to make the attempt as the potential rewards are massive but I still acknowledge that the risks might have increased due to our foolish frolicking in the fields of true reality.

Enough grumbling though.

TODAY IS A JOYOUS DAY!

ANOTHER MEMBER OF THE HIVEMIND HAS SEEN THE LIGHT!

WELCOME ABOARD TO THE BEST SHIP POSSIBLE @Noumero !

Your wise endorsement is appreciated and we look forward to your future contributions.
 
[X] Action plan: Who let the dogs out + Necromancy
[X] Action plan: Who let the dogs out

Reminder that Jutsu potluck and @Lailoken's chakra farm to fix the pangolins might also merit a few lines.

I think on the whole I'm down for saying "all the bioterrorism sounds good but can we not start plagues" (plagues won't even make them think the _land_ was bad, and all the anti-plague rationale everyone else has said). I'll go through the plans soonish and figure out which of them do something like that.
 
Are bioterrorism/biological warfare and starting plagues not the same thing?
Eh, I think I'm in favor of the whole "turn the land against them, send the swamp to kill them, let the Aburame's partners feast on their bones", just let's be wary of "and also infect them with pox that we carry to them in blankets, which could more easily backfire and Tsunade would not like".
 
Eh, I think I'm in favor of the whole "turn the land against them, send the swamp to kill them, let the Aburame's partners feast on their bones", just let's be wary of "and also infect them with pox that we carry to them in blankets, which could more easily backfire and Tsunade would not like".
I mean, it just feels a little weird to go "release the gates of hell, make them wish for death, slaughter our enemies" but then feel icky about getting them sick or poisoning them. Either way the point is to kill them and get them off our land, how we do it shouldn't matter as long as they can't point a finger and say it was us.
 
Rock: BRILLIANT! WE TOTES KNOCKED OUT LEAF. Now we get the land for farming like we wanted.(meanwhile, ignoring Rock's inherent terraforming abilities to make their own farmlands, such that conquest is completely unnecessary)
Leaf: Not so fast. You'll have to rent the nasty Swamp of Death instead. *Tsunade and Naruto* looming....
Rock: Hmm....
 
Not an expert, but plagues bring up the idea of city-wide pandemics, which isn't necessarily the case if we use biological warfare against a military force.
Sure, but using Aburame bugs and encouraging chakra monsters to attack your foes isn't biological warfare, whereas using disease is. Also, in order for biological warfare against a military force to be effective you have to start a plague, anything less than that won't do enough damage.

I mean, it just feels a little weird to go "release the gates of hell, make them wish for death, slaughter our enemies" but then feel icky about getting them sick or poisoning them. Either way the point is to kill them and get them off our land, how we do it shouldn't matter as long as they can't point a finger and say it was us.
See, the trouble with using disease is that it tends to spread. Suppose it works and we get the Rock-nin sick with blood fever, then we have a bunch of very sick people camping on our border and anyone they come in contact with also gets sick. This means merchants between us and Grass spread the disease, any merchants passing through the Grass/Fire border spread the disease, any Rock-nin sent home spread the disease.

Using disease in warfare only has bad outcomes for us. Either we aren't able get a critical mass of Rock-nin sick and they recover and decide that a bit of flu won't kill them, or we are and kick off a massive plague which hurts everyone around based on proximity - and we are a lot closer to the epicenter than Rock is.
 
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Sure, but using Aburame bugs and encouraging chakra monsters to attack your foes isn't biological warfare, whereas using disease is. Also, in order for biological warfare against a military force to be effective you have to start a plague, anything less than that won't do enough damage.


See, the trouble with using disease is that it tends to spread. Suppose it works and we get the Rock-nin sick with blood fever, then we have a bunch of very sick people camping on our border and anyone they come in contact with also gets sick. This means merchants between us and Grass spread the disease, any merchants passing through the Grass/Fire border spread the disease, any Rock-nin sent home spread the disease.

Using disease in warfare only has bad outcomes for us. Either we aren't able get a critical mass of Rock-nin sick and they recover and decide that a bit of flu won't kill them, or we are and kick off a massive plague which hurts everyone around based on proximity - and we are a lot closer to the epicenter than Rock is.

Mongol used Germ warfare. I don't see why it has only bad outcomes for us(bad as in, biowarfare backfired on us and gives us the germs).
 
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I'm in favour of seducing Ino now. @Dictator4Hire, wanna start a conspiracy?
*waves hands in Jedi motion*
You are not in favor of that for the next 4 in-game years.

@eaglejarl: earlier you said the clan has almost no revenue right now. Did you not include any money Kagome is currently making from the sealing sweatshop, or is he not being paid?
I know I answered this in Discord but I don't recall if I answered it here.

  1. I did not think about Kagome's income; thanks for the reminder
  2. I'm not sure how much he's getting paid in cash and how much in scrip, given that a lot of physical coin just got sunk
  3. It doesn't matter because the QMs don't want to play Marked for Spreadsheets. Get some meaningful income in the medium-term future (next 6 months or so), don't spend hundreds of millions, you're fine. Within those boundaries we're going to assume that you have as much money as you need
  4. Revenue is already in progress via the bank, the Force Wall sawmills, etc. "Get some revenue" basically means "don't suddenly screw everything for some bizarre reason like canceling all your existing ventures or something."

WELCOME ABOARD TO THE BEST SHIP POSSIBLE [i.e. Hazino] @Noumero !
You'd best be keeping that ship at anchor for the next 4 in-game years, bucko. I'm not facetanking another mod inquisition because two minors got smoochy. And yes, I know, minors being romanctic is fine, but I'm drawing a fence around the fence around the continent on which the Torah resides.

So, yeah. Keep it in the harbor for a while.

I mean, it just feels a little weird to go "release the gates of hell, make them wish for death, slaughter our enemies" but then feel icky about getting them sick or poisoning them. Either way the point is to kill them and get them off our land, how we do it shouldn't matter as long as they can't point a finger and say it was us.
Actually, this reminds me of something...

Quick pre-emptive bit of thread management:

So far as I understand the rules, in my non-mod capacity, it's okay to deal with biowarfare on SV as long as it's done in a tasteful way. I have had a non-official, personal-opinion-only, non-binding statement from an official-type person that nothing that has happened in the update or following discussion has been problematic. I want to make sure that we don't get anywhere near there, so let me offer some pre-emptive advice by quoting Admiral Skippy from here: Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest Fantasy

"It is generally against the rules to get super enthusiastic about doing nasty things to specific groups or categories of beings, just for the sake of doing nasty things. [...]

As a very rough rule of thumb, which should not be taken as guidance or instruction:
It's okay to have violence and slaying horrible monsters in Quests. It is not okay to appear to get off on it."


Insofar as I can tell, no one has done anything that even hinted at that, but I don't want anyone getting infracted so let's be careful.


Incidentally, Admiral Skippy is my hero for calling someone out for both bad behavior AND poor spelling. Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest Fantasy
 
Soooo...to those for the bioplague does this accurately portray the costs and benefits you expect from it?
It sounds like if we go the bioplague Rock plan we are hoping that'll stave off war from all other nations for enough time for us to Uplift fast enough to change the status quo such that another world war is against everyone's best interests?
Main reasons Leaf hasn't already ushered in a chakra Uplift revolution is ninja civilian prejudice, needing to devote so many ninja to military, and everyone else gaining up on you when your revolution gives you so much power. Bioterror, if it works, can help relieve ninja manpower. Goketsu influence can deal with prejudice. But the ill will we gain from it will make everyone gaining up on us a problem.
 
Mongol used Germ warfare. I don't see why it has only bad outcomes for us(bad as in, biowarfare backfired on us and gives us the germs).
Yes, Mongols did use germ warfare. You know what that resulted in? The Black Fucking Plague. Using biological warfare means that either we 'fail' and are unable to chase the Rock-nin off, or we 'succeed' and start the E.N. equivalent of the Black Plague in our own backyard.
 
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Made some edits: sending Noburi instead of Hazō to meet with Kei. Added pushing for getting us on the actual council
have Noburi meet with Kei to discuss 7th path trades as summoners
  • Talking points:
  • We would like to send a message to the dog clan to negoitiate for there next summoner to be from the Goketsu, similar to how we did the Snakes.
    • If we're lucky, this will result in Kakashi showing up to claim our new estate. (joke)
  • Also while we have her ear, how likely does she think it would be for the Pangolin to give special dispensation to teach their techniques to specific individuals? What would we need to do for them for this?
    • He is, of course, talking about all the Jounin of leaf but I'd willing to work on a case to case basis. A stronger leaf is important and we could trade it for more power for team uplift. We also give Kei total veto power on any deal.
    • Also would you mind talking to the toads about Noburi being there next summoner? Maybe line up some contracts so he can hit the ground run
 
This thread is full of bad takes, and needs more valid opinions. I'm talking opinions like "Asuma X Mari is the strategically optimal ship" and "We ready set up a fanclub for Keiko - now we ought to do so for Orochimaru, to socialize him more and/or provide test subjects!"

Hazino is also a bad take. Everyone knows the best ship is "Noburi's axe-girlfriend + Jashin", for both drama and power-levels !


/jk, you're great everyone.
[X] Oneiros
 
There is no knowledge of the germ theory of disease in the EN. [...] The imbalance of humors [...]

I think that this is a little weird, though. I can understand medicine not being advanced enough to know about germs yet --medical jutsu as an effective cure-all would do little to spur innovation and research, much in the way that bacta/kolto is used for everything under the sun in Star Wars --but Tsunade knows that humors are bullshit. The Third Hokage knew that humors are bullshit. So why is it still one of the prevailing medical theories in the EN?

I can get why Tsunade wouldn't spend her life researching --as it is, she's reshaped the medical side of ninjutsu on her own --since that was always Orochimaru's passion, whereas her is more humanitarian in scope. But she wrote books, right? I seem to remember that she (or was it her students) wrote books and did all that they could to fling them across the world. So, knowing that, why are they ignoring her easily verifiable research? Is it simply that the information still isn't readily accessible to civilians --and, thereby, the majority of the EN's population?

Tsunade isn't actually pro-civilian though, it'd be more accurate to say that she's anti-disease

I'd say that she is pro-civilian, though. We don't know much about Tsunade personally, but we know that she wanders and heals, right? Teaching medical techniques (that might not even be jutsu) and whatnot to small villages and then being notably upset that they were wiped off the map next time she tried to visit. We must also remember that she's the granddaughter of the Shodaime. The guy who wanted peace and then made it. The guy who created, enforced, and maintained a village of different clans during what would later be called "The Warring Clans Era."

I would be willing to bet my hat that Tsunade's far more progressive than 90% of ninja. I'm of the opinion that she's simply disinterested or disillusioned with the village system as a whole. She was actively dismissive of her political weight until the Hyuuga Hokage (can't remember his name, finals are killing me right now) promised to lend his aid in furthering her cause.


I mean, it just feels a little weird to go "release the gates of hell, make them wish for death, slaughter our enemies" but then feel icky about getting them sick or poisoning them.

I believe that characters in fiction can be contradictory because people in real life are contradictory. She might not give two shits about slapping an enemy down a peg (she how she tested Mari? And that was her playing nice, since she knew that the old pervert liked Mari in some capacity... also, we really don't know much about her, do we?) but then draw the line at biological warfare. A good example of this in real life is the American President Thomas Jefferson. He wrote against political tyranny, he wrote against the divine right and sacral nature of kingship, he wrote "give me liberty or give me death." But Thomas Jefferson was also someone who literally owned other people and had rape babies with many of his slaves.

Characters can be contradictory and flawed because people are contradictory and flawed.

Edit for clarity of thought. Finals are a thing and, because of that, my head is pounding while coffee floods my veins and usurps the place of my blood.
 
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I will vote for literally anything which takes a strong stance against biological warfare. Since there appear to be no plans at present which do so (tag me if your plan has anything more than a token effort), I've also put together my own plan below:

I will note that I'm open to changing anything in this plan except for the ASAP in private with Mari and the veto plague blankets header, so if you're willing to vote for this but want a small change, tag me and I'll do it.

[X] Plan: Pandora's Box
(299 Words)
Run plans by the clan wherever possible
  • ASAP in private with Mari:
    • Intentionally spreading disease and why we're not okay with it.
    • Ask for her help in convincing others away from plague blankets without harming her credibility
    • Suggest Skywalker assisted bombing runs of Hidden Rock instead
    • Suggest fomenting insurrection within Grass
  • Convince Asuma to veto the plague blankets
    • This is a massive 'fuck you' to Tsunade
    • Bio-warfare can very easily backfire
    • If we engage in Bio-warfare, so will our foes, then everyone loses.
  • First opportunity after meeting:
    • Decide with Mari which of Jiraiya's spy-network notes are useful for Leaf and which we can keep without harming Leaf.
    • Unconditionally give Asuma translations of all approved notes.
      • Offer to help re-establish Jiraiya's spy network.
      • Mention Kagome's reaction to sealing sweatshops, ask for better conditions
  • Continue pressure campaign for better sealmaster conditions or working from home
  • Put Ami's suggestions into practice:
    • Carry around a journal to note feelings and emotions
    • Practice daily with Mari on genjutsu
  • When it's convenient
    • Meet allied clans, feel out how they'd react to adoption limit increases.
    • Interview secretarial candidates
    • Find 'skinwastes' to hire for the bank,
      • Optimize for ideological compatibility with uplift
      • Also look for new Genin, particularly civilian born.
    • Meet Noburi's candidates
      • Evaluate:
        • Candidate fit
        • Willingness to join
        • Scope of issues
      • Offer cooperation/auxiliary status regardless of adoption
    • Consult Aburame and Inuzuka on chakra beast farming
    • Loot Swamp of Death cache with Noburi
  • When we have downtime
    • Talk with Mari:
      • Thank her for her work, and for trusting us in general.
      • Talk about morality, get a grasp of her understanding of good/evil.
      • Ask if she'd like some downtime or prefer a different assignment
    • Talk with Keiko, thank her for trusting us with her sister's secret. Express our gratitude for getting us the help we needed
 
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[X] Action Plan: Internal Political Sausage-Making (No Dog Scroll)

I'll approval vote it.
 
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