[x] Dropkick Kyubey at your earliest convenience.

Also, wow. That's a ton of progress on Homura's issues we made during that conversation.

Hmm. Here's a broad list of things we want to do during this study session, not yet arranged into vote format:

• Make the enchantment booster and hand it to Mami for analysis.
• Work on mind control/memory modification protections.
• Contact the Pleiades and discuss potentially involving them with Tokyo.
• Analyze the Feather.
• Bring up Homura coming to the meeting with the Shizuki's.
• Bring up wanting to hire mental health professionals to Hitomi and Madoka.
• Give Madoka and Hitomi the Tokyo overview.

Anything else?
Yeah, having Sabrina specifically sit down and explain things with logos rather than pathos helps a lot. We definitely need to keep that in mind in the future.

I actually thought of a way for Sabrina to be able to reference timelines that worked, in fact. It's something that we've backpedaled away from previously, because we had no good explanation, but we do have one.

"Of course I would know how things would work if things were fixed - it's why I'm here."
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*squees, pitch increasing into inaudibility*
 
[QUOTE="Redshirt Army, post: 12323893, member: 6715... they'd want someone who can understand their experiences, which would naturally push them towards other magical girls.

No wish magic (or at least not much wish magic) involved.[/QUOTE]
Let's not forget selection bias - Kyuubey has strict criteria - including volatility. Girls who have a clear path in front of them, and lots of community stability, are sub-optimal. Girls who are going against the grain, or unsure of everything, way more in the Q-zone.

BTW, let's make our emotions towards Kyuubey a subject of haute cuisine. I would recommend they are a dish best served cold.
Such meaning - let other girls rough him up in the here and now, all we need is his Grief cycling function ATM. Let it think we are... ya know, who really understands what it thinks? I wonder if that might be a philosophical issue at the heart of Incubator, that it might be more of a p-zombie. Doesn't mean we won't have another serious moment of emotional expression someday. Hold it in. The long game will feel much better, I promise.
 
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Speaking of which, I wonder if part of the reason that pretty much every meguca is at least a little gay/bi is because someone wished for it at some point. Since a wish that big would need a lot of potential, it was probably someone that would have made large strides in legalizing gay marriage or just getting people to be more accepting of gay/bi people in general if she hadn't become a magical girl.

I usually assume that the causation goes the other way, actually. Not that there's something that makes magical girls gay, but that queer girls are more likely to be the type of person Kyuubey preys upon. Think about it; if you go out of your way to target people who will have a weaker-than-average support structure, are likely to fall into a spiral of self-destructive depression given the right stimulus, and who are likely to have a strong unfulfilled desire for something that only appears to be achievable through magic, I think you're naturally going to get an unusually high amount of queer people. It's kind of outside the scope of the original work, but I'm willing to bet that racial minorities and the very poor are disproportionately represented as well. And I mean, of the original cast, every MG we know of is an orphan, with the exception of Madoka (who has an artificially inflated amount of potential anyway) and Sayaka (who seems to mostly be contracted as a way of manipulating Madoka). So I don't think it's necessary for a wish to be the cause at all, just the natural result of Kyuubey's priorities interacting with the way society tends to treat minorities.
 
Let's not forget selection bias - Kyuubey has strict criteria - including volatility. Girls who have a clear path in front of them, and lots of community stability, are sub-optimal. Girls who are going against the grain, or unsure of everything, way more in the Q-zone.

I usually assume that the causation goes the other way, actually. Not that there's something that makes magical girls gay, but that queer girls are more likely to be the type of person Kyuubey preys upon.

Yeah, this definitely contributes too.
 
sit down and explain things with logos rather than pathos helps a lot.

"You're a Wizard, Harry"

This update features Rays of Buddha, rainbows and warriors of the First Age crying out "Aure Entuluva!" across the valley. We have crossed (just a little) a tipping point. We must intelligently lock in our gains, but the future is changing. I dearly want to get more resilience for Homura, just as I hope that Sayaka and Mami will be able to drag Kyouko away from her problems and into her real life soon.

We need plan out the hows - and - whens for proposing Madoka and Hitomi taking up the pen for our nation. It shouldn't be difficult at first, but I want us to complete a full road map. Homura wants to live with some more certainty, so pivots and improvisation are just going to fire her issues. We can avoid it by formulating now.

I want to include using the escape house as the workroom for our diplomatic mission? This will actually wind up generating information we need her to retain, and I'm not sure cacheing that at either girls house is better than stashing it under Yuki's protection. It has the further benefit of training Madoka and Hitomi to evacuate by reflex, without stressing her out. Homura might fistbump over this?
 
Hmm. Do we want to bring up the whole "Kyubey might have been suppressing Hitomi's mom's memories" thing to Hitomi? And/or to Hitomi's mother when we meet her?

We're gonna work on memory protection enchantments already, maybe we should consider giving copies to our mundane friends and family of friends?

E:

Oh, also, we definitely need to discuss Oriko's new powers with Sayaka and Hitomi.
 
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Hmm. Do we want to bring up the whole "Kyubey might have been suppressing Hitomi's mom's memories" thing to Hitomi? And/or to Hitomi's mother when we meet her?

We're gonna work on memory protection enchantments already, maybe we should consider giving copies to our mundane friends and family of friends?
First, we need to test it in our circle. Then is gets deployed to Tokyo with us, and Umika can judge the result of usage against a real threat. Only then do we spread it, because weak security is an awful curse.
Once it works, we do need to share the love.

On a related note, would we do well to ask Niko to make us a super-special version of the Memory Device? Still tuned to invalidate the experience of Kyuubey, but sized for one person only, and with an activation function. The user 'on' button, it makes this a tool, and not a horrific weapon. For fun we ask her to make it a little black box on a choker, adding a small earbud wire?

I want it for two tasks. We are thinking Kyuubey will hit us heavily when we are most at risk? What if we aren't really vulnerable to Kyuubey at all in that moment? I would give Madoka a device so she can make her own choice, push the button and remove Kyuubey from her mind. This way the super-intelligence factor is neatly shoved off the board, it can't talk it's way out of this. The other task is to defend Homura and Mami. No matter what vitriol it might have in reserve, we have no time for that when WitchFest is on. Make our friend go unexpectedly offline, and they will be safe until we can be there for them later. It doesn't need to be permanent, just a day is enough.
 
It would be dishonest for me to concede that I had not expected this, and that as an outcome it is maximally desirable.

I don't think anybody predicted it -- but still.

You have... slight concerns about possible secrets, but if your guess is right, then Toshimichi has been going through some fairly great lengths to ensure the Witchbomb doesn't leak out. For everything else, there's the privacy sphere.

"Whatever can be scheduled," Mami says happily. "We'll make it an officially informal visit, perhaps."

"Perhaps!" you agree. "But... I do want to be prepared for it. Protective enchantments?"

"Yes, of course," Mami says. "Perhaps we could work on that during our practice session later today? Especially since Sayaka copied Miss Kure's antimagic."

Make the enchantment booster and hand it to Mami for analysis.
• Work on mind control/memory modification protections.
• Contact the Pleiades and discuss potentially involving them with Tokyo.
• Analyze the Feather.
• Bring up Homura coming to the meeting with the Shizuki's.
• Bring up wanting to hire mental health professionals to Hitomi and Madoka.
• Give Madoka and Hitomi the Tokyo overview.

[X] In whatever order makes sense:
[X] As a group, work on developing mind/memory protection.
-[X] Use enchantment booster for rapid prototyping.
-[X] Basic practice in spare time.
[X] Mention invitation to shizukidinner to Homura & others
-[X] Ask if Homura was also invited
[X] Sanitized summary of Tokyo for everyone
-[X] Madoka-friendly. Bombs no, politics yes.
[X] Chat up the Pleiades by telepathy. Ask after & talk about current events. Ask after Hijiri.
[X] Mention wanting to bring mental health professionals into this somehow. Cite Akemi & Norikos as example of why.
[X] Ask Homura to stick around for a while after by telepathy.
[X] Mention Oriko's new powers.

We can look at the feather, but... I'm not so sure we're equipped to analyze it this session. Wouldn't we kind of need purposed grief instruments for that, and/or basically postcog? It might be interesting to see if Oriko could CV anything related to it, iunno.

Thoughts?

Do we need to / should we re-give the entire explanation of why Oriko isn't a problem?
 
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It would be dishonest for me to concede that I had not expected this, and that as an outcome it is maximally desirable.

I don't think anybody predicted it -- but still.





[X] In whatever order makes sense:
[X] As a group, work on developing mind/memory protection.
-[X] Use enchantment booster for rapid prototyping.
-[X] Basic practice in spare time.
[X] Mention invitation to shizukidinner to Homura & others
-[X] Ask if Homura was also invited
[X] Sanitized summary of Tokyo for everyone
-[X] Madoka-friendly. Bombs no, politics yes.
[X] Chat up the Pleiades by telepathy. Ask after & talk about current events. Ask after Hijiri.
[X] Mention wanting to bring mental health professionals into this somehow. Cite Akemi & Norikos as example of why.
[X] Ask Homura to stick around for a while after by telepathy.
[X] Mention Oriko's new powers.

We can look at the feather, but... I'm not so sure we're equipped to analyze it this session. Wouldn't we kind of need purposed grief instruments for that, and/or basically postcog? It might be interesting to see if Oriko could CV anything related to it, iunno.

Thoughts?

Do we need to / should we re-give the entire explanation of why Oriko isn't a problem?
My thoughts:

Shizukidinner priority is good.

I think I'd rather ask the Saints about mind control protection than immediately attempt it ourselves: They already have experience with mind magic and may well have a solution either outright ready or be in a position to achieve one more efficiently than we can.

Much as the wait galls me, I agree that this isn't the time for the Feather. We haven't used this period for just enchantment, but it should take up the lion's share of it. Beyond that, I do think we're equipped to deal with it, but it potentially ties into a lot of bombs and problems, particularly for Homura. (if we conjure up an image of its originator, and it's significantly, or we use sympathetic magic to make it point to who it originally belonged to and it points to us or Madoka? I think that would cause problems for Homura.)

I do however want to see if that thought earlier about making objects from magic being (or being enhanced by) an aspect of our specific magic holds true: The base nature of our magic direct ties into our enchantment after all.

All things considered I'd rather either work on the tracking effects, or push how far we can manipulate our grief by enchanting it.

Honestly, if we're going to discuss Oriko's new power, then we're going to need a privacy device for it and, as something we use a lot and as such which we may be quite familiar with as well as finding it useful, that may be a good moment to see if we can replicate that effect with our enchantments.


Uh, no, you really, really aren't inb4 that. She's been meguca Jesus Buddha for ages. :V
1: Fixed that for you both

2: I'll point out that, thanks to us landing in this timeline in late March, we are, quite literally in before Madoka becomes a Buddha. :p
 
Speaking of which, I wonder if part of the reason that pretty much every meguca is at least a little gay/bi is because someone wished for it at some point. Since a wish that big would need a lot of potential, it was probably someone that would have made large strides in legalizing gay marriage or just getting people to be more accepting of gay/bi people in general if she hadn't become a magical girl.

If wishes could revise human nature writ large, then I think the human race would look very different at this point -- not least because people in the majority would be able to make such wishes too, and a lot of majority members are taught that eliminationism is a solution to social suffering.
 
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omg it looks amazing!

also, I think we might want to hold off on using the saints anti kyubey field, I've got a sneaking suspicion for a while that a large scale mind manipulation device might just be behind the strange insanity that ended up gripping asunara in pmkm, so we might want to screen the thing for safety first before using it

I really think that while the saints are a massive resource and could help us in so much, what with the anti cabbit field, artificial incubator, and dewitching experiments, its obvious that none of those things can really be trusted at face value not to go horribly wrong if only because we know that those things are created after the city descends into madness
 
That went about as I'd hoped. Which is good, because we've had a couple very good votes in this conversation.
you watch as she tamps down on the fear, her mouth setting firm, her eyes turning to you as she visibly weighs current circumstances against fear.
"OK," Homura says. She looks up at you, meeting your eyes properly, and nods. She looks a little happier, just a little less strained and and a little less worn. "I... alright."
Homura takes another deep breath and straightens, nodding more firmly.

"It makes sense,"
Homura reacts to her own logic just as well as she reacts to our logic: She can subdue her fears by going over plans and the reasons why they'll work.
I actually thought of a way for Sabrina to be able to reference timelines that worked, in fact. It's something that we've backpedaled away from previously, because we had no good explanation, but we do have one.

"Of course I would know how things would work if things were fixed - it's why I'm here."
That would work. It's probably even correct, in that metaknowledge is probably one of the bigger tools we have for fixing everything.

I've got a sneaking suspicion for a while that a large scale mind manipulation device might just be behind the strange insanity that ended up gripping asunara in pmkm
Not really. IIRC most of the nuttiness is rooted in events predating the memory field, and what happened after is well-explained by the lack of cleansing. And, well, the generally low quality of the writing, but that's another story.
I think I'd rather ask the Saints about mind control protection than immediately attempt it ourselves
What time is it? I think we can probably poke them right now, since I don't remember it being particularly late.


As @Kaizuki noted, we already have an agenda:
"Whatever can be scheduled," Mami says happily. "We'll make it an officially informal visit, perhaps."

"Perhaps!" you agree. "But... I do want to be prepared for it. Protective enchantments?"

"Yes, of course," Mami says. "Perhaps we could work on that during our practice session later today? Especially since Sayaka copied Miss Kure's antimagic."

A slightly-edited catgirl, mostly cleaning up and expanding on details.

[X] In whatever order makes sense:

[x] Brainmail the Pleiades. Topics:
-[x] Current events. How are things? The situation in Tokyo.
-[x] Defenses against mind magic.

Move this further up, and explain Tokyo to motivate the question about mind magic.

[X] Enchantment topics:
-[X] Use/share enchantment booster for rapid prototyping.
-[X] Protective enchantments. Mind shields, antimagic, maybe danger-vision from one of the sight powers, etc.
-[] Quietly make a ring for Homura to enchant for Madoka.
-[x] Griefhax with emotion-enchanted grief.

Expand to general protective enchantments; I think that we'll end up focusing on mental defenses, but Sayaka having Kirika's antimagic is a good point.

[X] Mention invitation to shizukidinner to Homura & others
-[X] Ask about inviting Homura

Unchanged.

[X] Sanitized summary of Tokyo for everyone
-[X] Light on details; you'll write the details up later so you don't mess up while extemporizing (and so you can run it past Homura first).

Clarify the intent here. Note that we can't tell Madoka too much until we've run it past Homura, as promised.

[X] Mention wanting to bring mental health professionals into this somehow. Cite Akemi & Norikos as example of why.

Unchanged.

[X] Mention Oriko's new powers. Same routine as earlier, explain how wish magic works, but go for emotion and romanticize it a bit to work better with Sayaka and Madoka.
-[x] Telepathically give Homura quick notes on various conversational maneuvers as you make them, e.g. rational approach for her but emotional+romantic approach for Sayaka+Madoka.

Expand on this. Sayaka's probably going to some issues with it, same way Homura did, and we can use the same evidence, but we have to spin it a bit. We can also use this as an opportunity to give Homura a practical demonstration complete with realtime feed of explanations, though we'll want to keep those explanations brief so we aren't splitting Homura's attention too much.

[X] Ask Homura to stick around for a while after by telepathy.

I can't remember what the motivation for this was, but I figure there's at least something so I'll leave it in.
 
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I'll note that I really do hope that Sayaka comes to us first if she figures anything out, otherwise we're kind of fucked. It's too bad that we can't really grab Sayaka and note that if she figures out anything else, Homura would appreciate it if Sayaka talked to her about it first. Can you imagine how hard Homura would bluescreen if Sayaka went to her before us to carefully and sympathetically ask her if she's a time traveler?
 
I'll note that I really do hope that Sayaka comes to us first if she figures anything out, otherwise we're kind of fucked. It's too bad that we can't really grab Sayaka and note that if she figures out anything else, Homura would appreciate it if Sayaka talked to her about it first. Can you imagine how hard Homura would bluescreen if Sayaka went to her before us to carefully and sympathetically ask her if she's a time traveler?

Presumably she'd just stop time, grab us, and drag us (willingly or not) to Sayaka's location to explain things.
 
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