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Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest

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Drasky said:
Hazou not caring about it doesn't mean that the action hasn't been done, nor does it mean that she isn't being an unintentional hypocrite. This isn't complicated.
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It's sort of different though. When Keiko did she knew Hazo would be fine with it and did it, and she was right he didn't care.

When Hazo did it he knew that this would hurt Keiko and did it anyway choosing to apologize later than ask permission he knew he wasn't going to get, and he was right she was mad. Then she started crying and that's when you all seem suprised.

No offense because this isn't meant against anyone in particular, but does it feel like a lot of the people following the thread are trying to come up with various arguments to justify to themselves that they aren't in the wrong or that Keiko is in the wrong for being angry? It's a bit ridiculous really, we knew she wouldn't want this, we knew she would be angry and likely even feel a bit betrayed with us going behind her back over something she finds so important, or at least many people brought this up for everyone to read.

I'm not trying to call people out and say I told you so, because I supported the Ami meeting and still do. What I'm saying is that meddled into this knowing that Keiko would be angry and chose to do it anyway because ultimately this helps her in the long run, or at least hopefully it does.

We have to face facts, there is no grand gesture that can be worked here, no big spontaneous family meeting to force people to talk about this, no dumb promise that we all KNOW we would break later anyway (because come on now do we not remember Akane's whole deal with us?). That's not how people work, it's a cheap fix to a complicated, inherently irrational issue between two people.
We're already in this too deep, do what we can with our current situation with Ami, try to get the sisters to talk once we finally have a good opportunity, keep supporting Keiko and showing we care, and hopefully earn her trust back. Don't just backpeddle when the going gets tough. That's all you can really do.
 
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TaliesinSkye said:
Whether the expectation is fair is relevant because whether it's fair dictates whether other people are obligated to oblige it or not. Fair expectation? Sure, someone should go along with that. Unfair or unreasonable expectation? No, people are not obligated to go along with that.

It's really pretty simple. Keiko's feelings being genuinely hurt doesn't mean she has a genuine grievance. People's feelings get hurt by stupid nonsense all the time, and you know what? It's entirely their own fault for not figuring their own damn feelings out. They need to get their house in order and not demand that everyone else make it their problem. A conclusion Keiko came to herself once she stopped being angry long enough to think. But then she went right back to feeling betrayed, so it seems she's still wrestling with the disconnect between what she knows and what she feels.

If you live by a moral rule where other people's feelings make genuine demands on your behavior regardless of how reasonable those feelings are, then you literally make yourself the slave of all the unreasonable people in the world. Live that way if you like, but me? No fucking thanks. And a wide selection of moral philosophies overwhelmingly agree with me. I'm under no obligation to do anything of the kind. People are responsible for wrangling their own unreasonable feelings.
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I feel like this is missing the point. No, I never claimed that not fulfilling an unreasonable strangers expectations is a betrayal. Feel free to ignore inconvenient feelings of other people.

But you do not get to do that and call those people family, or pretend that you care about their wellbeing. This is where the betrayal is. Keiko wouldn't feel betrayed if we always agreed with her self-assessment, and treated everyone around us as tools, to be discarded whenever their utility is lower than the opportunity cost.

People who you claim you care about have a right to complain when you hurt their feelings, even if the reason is 'unfair' or 'irrational'. They are correct to make genuine demands on your behaviour! You don't have to obey those demands, you don't have a 'moral rule' in any 'moral philosophy' that binds you to them, but your actions have consequences and some of those consequences is other people feeling betrayed and (accurately) adjusting their belief in how much you care about them.

Certainly it's internally consistent to say here that you don't care about Keiko at all, her problems are her own, and we'll just keep doing our own thing. If that's the line you want to take, well, more power to you, though I hope we won't vote in plans like that.
 
MMKII said:
WC: 492
[X] Action Plan: It's Kinda Sorta The Other Plan But With Shopping and Socializing

Morning:
  • Show the new letter to:
    • Jiraiya. Quickly confirm conclusions:
      • Letter #1 was deliberately leaked through a compromised courier. Implication: Courier #2 wasn't compromised.
      • We could keep Letter #2 quiet and go along with the marriage, but Letter #2 signals that Ami'll drop it if we won't
      • Letter #1 was pretty aggressive: likely signals that she strongly prefers the former.
  • Tell Keiko and Noburi about:
    • The second letter. Pre-empt their concerns, this one's 'good' news.
      • Let them voice their opinions.
      • Carefully ask Keiko's thoughts on the potential second meeting.
      • Finally get Noburi's full opinion on the situation.
    • The finals
      • Would Keiko like assistance in planning for the finals?
        • Yes: Suggest that she overcharge on Noburi's chakra water before the match, so that she can summon two big pangolins immediately. Might sting for a couple days afterwards though...
        • No: Okay, that's fine.
Afternoon:

  • Once Jiraiya returns, discuss the situation (include Noburi and Keiko; high-OPSEC conditions):
    • How long before we'll have to leave Mist?
    • Second meeting with Ami:
      • We should seek a honest answer regarding whether she's in danger/wants a political marriage.
      • Would require better OPSEC measures. A walk across the bay followed by a picnic?
      • We're a bit shaken from recent events. Any advice?
    • If Jiraiya approves, send a letter. Contents:
      • Decline the favour.
      • Set up the second meeting.
        • Place: "near" a random restaurant.
        • Time: tomorrow? (Jiraiya's call.)
  • If Jiraiya allows us outside:
    • Watch today's matches.
    • Verify Ami's story (if time permits).
      • Disguise: civilian. Collaborate with Noburi. Ideas:
        • Historian interested in Mist's culinary.
        • Secret police.
      • Visit a few restaurants. Inquire about their history, then ask about:
        • Connection between Byakuren's Cookbook and Experimental Cuisine.
        • Byakuren's Cookbook serving large groups of ninja.
      • Byakuren's Cookbook: name-drop Ami for regulars-only menu.
    • If anyone talks about Hazou and Ami: no comment.
  • Go shopping with Ino.
    • Go to various clothes merchants from many different nations.
    • Spend a third of your remaining December allowance on clothes for you.
      • We trust her to pick nice outfits.
      • She can grab one or two things on us, as well, as thanks for the help.
    • Spend another third acquiring expanding the wardrobe for you potential disguises.
      • Buy sets of decently priced commoner's outfits from various countries.
      • Bargain with merchant: Our lady friend here is going to drive us bankrupt soon. Can you throw some more practical sets of clothes from your country in at a bit of a discount? Ninja go through many clothes, you see.
  • Structure route back so that you pass by the blacksmith near the Mizukage's tower.
    • Thank Ino for the help, much appreciated.
    • Money was really tight in your family growing up, and you had a handful of sets of clothes so you aren't so adept at fashion.
    • Tell her how you used to jump onto the Mizukage tower to win pocket change as a kid to help pay the bills. Guess that's far in the past.
      • Keep any bloodline relevant details out of it.
      • Expression: Thoughtful, somewhat amused.
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Wordcount optimized to the next threshold:
Morning:

Show new letter to:
Jiraiya. Confirm conclusions:
Letter #1 was deliberately leaked through courier. Implication: Courier #2 secure.
Options: hide Letter #2 and court Ami, or use Letter #2 and drop it.
Ami might prefer the former since Letter #1 was so aggressive.
Talk with Keiko and Noburi:
The second letter. Pre-empt concerns, this one's 'good' news.
Get their input.
Carefully ask Keiko's thoughts on meeting again.
Get Noburi's full opinion on Ami.
Would Keiko like planning help for the finals?
Yes: Suggest she overcharge on chakra water beforehand to summon two pangolins immediately. Might sting for a couple days...
No: Okay, that's fine.

Afternoon:

Once Jiraiya returns, discuss situation (include Noburi and Keiko; high-OPSEC):
How long before we leave Mist?
Second meeting with Ami:
Seeking a honest answer: if she's in danger/wants a political marriage.
Need better OPSEC. A walk across the bay and a picnic?
We're a bit shaken from recent events. Any advice?
If Jiraiya approves, send a letter. Contents:
Decline the favour.
Set up the second meeting.
Place: "near" a random restaurant.
Time: tomorrow? (Jiraiya's call.)
If Jiraiya allows us outside:
Watch today's matches.
Verify Ami's story (if time permits).
Disguise: civilian. Collaborate with Noburi. Ideas:
Culinary Historian interested in Mist.
Secret police.
Visit restaurants. Inquire about their history, then ask about:
Connection between Byakuren's Cookbook and Yukizome's.
Byakuren's Cookbook serving large groups of ninja.
Byakuren's Cookbook: name-drop Ami for regulars-only menu.
If anyone talks about Hazou and Ami: no comment.

Go shopping with Ino.
It's the Exams! Try multinational markets.
Spend a third of remaining December allowance on clothes.
We trust her to pick nice outfits.
She can grab one or two things on us, as thanks for the help.
Spend another third expanding wardrobe for potential disguises.
Buy commoner's outfits from various countries.
Bargaining: Our friend here is driving us bankrupt. Can you throw in some practical clothes from your country at a discount? Ninja go through many clothes, you see.
Structure route back so you pass by the blacksmith near the Mizukage's tower.
Thank Ino for the help, much appreciated.
Money was tight in your family growing up, which didn't allow much fashion.
Tell her how you used to take bets to jump onto the Mizukage tower as a kid to help pay the bills. Guess that's far in the past.
Keep any bloodline details out.
Expression: Thoughtful, somewhat amused.
 
I feel like pretending to be mist secret police is going to be one of those things that blows up in our faces and everyone will retroactively facepalm that that made it into the plan.
 
Kalkin said:
I feel like pretending to be mist secret police is going to be one of those things that blows up in our faces and everyone will retroactively facepalm that that made it into the plan.
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We're doing WHAT?

ETA: Honestly the entire thing about verifying Ami's story seems redundant to me. What are we gonna do if it turns out to be not true? Call her out?
 
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Kalkin said:
I feel like pretending to be mist secret police is going to be one of those things that blows up in our faces and everyone will retroactively facepalm that that made it into the plan.
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Can we have a round of cost-benefit analysis then?

Probably sensible to do this for all moderately risky plan components tbh. Identifying possible failure states and working out how we deal with them, given recent events.
 
Inferno Vulpix said:
Reposting the plan once again, if anyone has anything to say about it let me know.

Word Count: 299
[X] Action Plan: Reasonable Handling of New Information.
  • Show the letter to Jiraiya. Help him find a clean shirt. In the process, quickly confirm conclusions:
    • Letter #1 was deliberately leaked through a compromised courier. Implication: Courier #2 wasn't compromised.
    • Letter #2 leaves us an opportunity to go along with the marriage (if it wasn't leaked), and signals that Ami'll drop it if we won't
    • Letter #1 was pretty aggressive: likely signals that she strongly prefers the former option. Testing Courier #1 was secondary.
    • If we run out of time, cover these later.
  • Tell Keiko and Noburi about the second letter. Pre-empt their concerns, this one's good news.
    • Let them voice their opinions.
    • Carefully ask Keiko's thoughts on the potential second meeting.
    • Finally get Noburi's full opinion on the situation.
  • Do something calming and rote to relax a little, like making explosives.
  • Help Keiko plan for her upcoming fight.
  • Once Jiraiya returns, discuss the situation (include Noburi and Keiko; high-OPSEC conditions):
    • How long before we'll have to leave Mist?
    • Second meeting with Ami. Should it happen? If so:
      • Should we seek a honest answer regarding whether she's in danger/wants a political marriage?
      • Would require better OPSEC measures. A walk across the bay followed by a picnic?
      • We're a bit shaken from recent events. Any advice?
    • If Jiraiya approves, send a letter. Contents:
      • Decline the favour.
      • Set up the second meeting.
        • Place: "near" a random restaurant.
        • Time: tomorrow? (Jiraiya's call.)
  • If Jiraiya allows us outside:
    • Watch today's matches.
    • Verify Ami's story (if time permits).
      • Disguise: civilian. Collaborate with Noburi. Ideas:
        • Historian interested in Mist's culinary.
        • Secret police.
      • Visit a few restaurants. Inquire about their history, then ask about:
        • Connection between Byakuren's Cookbook and Experimental Cuisine.
        • Byakuren's Cookbook serving large groups of ninja.
      • Byakuren's Cookbook: name-drop Ami for regulars-only menu.
    • If anyone talks about Hazou and Ami: no comment.
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This is going to be a really low XP plan, and frankly, boring. I don't want to go back to every othe rplan being "talk to people about maybe getting permission to do a thing" and then only in the next plan doing the thing.

Furthermore, this means that eaglejarl would be the one writing the meeting. Do you really want to deprive Velorien of that joy?
 
Yeah, secret police is a bad disguise idea. Civilian is fine. Maybe we can be a telescope salesman. That'd be hilarious.

firestorm440 said:
Agreed, but what could we do to help her when everything we do is interpreted through her current lens?
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The only idea I have there is acting indirectly. Get somebody else's help, like Ami. Sadly Tenten is too far away, so we'd have to take the risk of Ami recruiting Keiko into helping her take over the world.
 
@Paperclipped
Thank you!

Edits:

MMKII said:
WC: 389
[X] Action Plan: It's Kinda Sorta The Other Plan But With Shopping and Socializing

Morning:

  • Show new letter to J:
    • Conclusions (?):
      • Letter #1 was deliberately leaked through courier. Implication: Courier #2 secure.
      • Options: hide Letter #2 and court Ami, or use Letter #2 and drop it.
      • Ami might prefer the former since Letter #1 was so aggressive.
  • Talk with Keiko and Noburi:
    • The second letter. Pre-empt concerns, this one's 'good' news.
      • Get their input.
      • Carefully ask Keiko's thoughts on meeting again.
    • Would Keiko like planning help for the finals?
      • Yes: Suggest she overcharge on chakra water beforehand to summon two pangolins immediately. Might sting for a couple days...
      • No: Okay, that's fine.

Afternoon:

  • Once Jiraiya returns, discuss situation (include Noburi and Keiko; high-OPSEC):
    • How long before we leave Mist?
    • Second meeting with Ami:
      • Seeking an honest answer: if she's in danger/wants a political marriage.
      • Need better OPSEC. A walk across the bay and a picnic?
      • We're a bit shaken from recent events. Any advice?
    • If Jiraiya approves, send a letter. Contents:
      • Decline the favour.
      • Set up the second meeting.
        • Place: "near" a random restaurant.
        • Time: tomorrow? (Jiraiya's call.)
  • If Jiraiya allows us outside:
    • Watch finals.
    • Verify Ami's story (if time permits).
      • Disguise: civilian. Collaborate with Noburi. Ideas:
        • Culinary Historian interested in Mist.
        • Scribe
      • Visit restaurants. Inquire about their history, then ask about:
        • Connection between Byakuren's Cookbook and Yukizome's.
        • Byakuren's Cookbook serving large groups of ninja.
      • Byakuren's Cookbook: name-drop Ami for regulars-only menu.
  • If anyone talks about Hazou and Ami: no comment.
  • Go shopping with Ino.
    • It's the Exams! Try multinational markets.
    • Spend a third of remaining December allowance on clothes.
      • We trust her to pick nice outfits.
      • She can grab one or two things on us, as thanks for the help.
    • Spend another third expanding wardrobe for potential disguises.
      • Buy commoner's outfits from various countries.
      • Bargaining: Joke:Our friend here is driving us bankrupt! Can you throw in some practical clothes from your country at a discount? Ninja go through many clothes, you see.
  • Structure route back so you pass by the blacksmith near the Mizukage's tower.
    • Thank Ino for the help, much appreciated.
    • Money was tight in your family growing up, so fashion wasn't an option.
    • Tell her how you used to take bets to jump onto the Mizukage tower as a kid to help pay the bills. Guess that's far in the past.
      • Keep any bloodline details out.
      • Expression: Thoughtful, Musing.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
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Cariyaga said:
Furthermore, this means that eaglejarl would be the one writing the meeting. Do you really want to deprive Velorien of that joy?
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People have a lot of assumptions about the timetable of the supposed meeting we haven't even scheduled yet.

Schedule it for two days from now and be done with it.
 
Origami Clock said:
Can we have a round of cost-benefit analysis then?

Probably sensible to do this for all moderately risky plan components tbh. Identifying possible failure states and working out how we deal with them, given recent events.
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Pros:
  • We verify Ami's statements (maybe)
Cons:
  • We get caught impersonating a mist ninja and Ren holds this over Jiraiya. Forcing him to make a ton of concessions to keep us out of T&I/ a coffin (maybe)
Edit: I actually liked the suggestion that we pay for Choji's meal and ask him to ask the questions.
 
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Cariyaga said:
This is going to be a really low XP plan, and frankly, boring. I don't want to go back to every othe rplan being "talk to people about maybe getting permission to do a thing" and then only in the next plan doing the thing.

Furthermore, this means that eaglejarl would be the one writing the meeting. Do you really want to deprive Velorien of that joy?
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Personally, I believe the second meeting with Ami (should it happen) will deserve a full update of focus and a full plan's worth of direction. I don't want to try and guide Hazou through an Ami date with half a plan and I don't think the QMs would want to write an Ami date in half an update. Further, this plan is not only about getting permission, but also about deciding major elements of the meeting like where it should be and what we should discuss. If we tried to cover the date without knowing what Jiraiya wants us to do or not do it would be a horrific mess of conditionals and blind uncertainty that no-one would enjoy.

Meanwhile, this update not only goes through the 'getting permission' phase of preparation, but also has us talk with Keiko and Noburi (thus giving Keiko room to further expand on her opinions), an investigation section at the end, and opportunity for the QMs to write one of the remaining matches. There's plenty of room for things to happen as we set up the date, and as @MMKII said if we really want to let Velorien write it then we can find something else to do between now and then.
 
Ever wonder what would happen if Hazou would just give in, adopt Keiko's comedic sociopath traits and combine them with his own blend of crazy?

No?

Well, too bad because I did.

HAZOU: Keiko, I would like to apologize for ignoring your agency. As a gesture of good will, I would also like to apologize for this.

*HAZOU knocks her unconscious, ties her up and puts her in a box*

KEIKO: *after waking up* Hmnghrh?

HAZOU: Hello again. In order to further respect your agency, I would like to ask you whether you prefer red or pink?

KEIKO: Hnnuhgh?! Ihhgwnhgt hgnhhg!

HAZOU: That's what I thought. I know you can't see it since you are tied up too tightly but I did use the pink rope. Because I love and respect you. Also, please do try enunciate properly; just because you have a gag in your mouth is no reason to act like an uncouth Inuzuka. Plus, makes it easier for people to respect your agency if they know what you want.

HAZOU: Now hold still while I add the final ingredient. *raises another box over the one Keiko is in, then lowers it again*

HAZOU: Woops, silly me. Nearly did it again, didn't I? Dear Keiko, may I shower you with the finest kittens from Mist?

KEIKO: ...

HAZOU: Thought so, thank you for agreeing. *dumps multiple boxes worth of kittens on her head* I'll be back as soon as I can. In the meanwhile, focus on mending your psyche with the Power of Cute.

*Later still*

HAZOU: ...and this is why balloons are the biggest threat to world peace. Oh, hey, is that Keiko I spy under the mountain of kittens over there? What a coincidence! Do you want to take a closer look and maybe go talk to her, Ami? But before you decide, do let me know whether you prefer the color red or pink. I have a feeling it might become relevant in just a bit...

AMI: What exactly happened between our first date and today?

HAZOU: Well, someone pointed out that I really need to be better at respecting other people's agency while yet another person taught me the value of messing with people to help understand them so I simply combined the two because, if nothing else, I learn quickly. So, still up for that marriage thing? I still have a lot to learn from you after all.

AMI: ...

HAZOU: ^_^
 
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Replaced secret police disguise idea with 'scribe apprentice'. It doesn't have any special relevance to the investigation but IIRC it's a role we've played before and our disguise doesn't have to be relevant to the investigation.
Inferno Vulpix said:
Reposting the plan once again, if anyone has anything to say about it let me know.

Word Count: 299
[X] Action Plan: Reasonable Handling of New Information.
  • Show the letter to Jiraiya. Help him find a clean shirt. In the process, quickly confirm conclusions:
    • Letter #1 was deliberately leaked through a compromised courier. Implication: Courier #2 wasn't compromised.
    • Letter #2 leaves us an opportunity to go along with the marriage (if it wasn't leaked), and signals that Ami'll drop it if we won't
    • Letter #1 was pretty aggressive: likely signals that she strongly prefers the former option. Testing Courier #1 was secondary.
    • If we run out of time, cover these later.
  • Tell Keiko and Noburi about the second letter. Pre-empt their concerns, this one's good news.
    • Let them voice their opinions.
    • Carefully ask Keiko's thoughts on the potential second meeting.
    • Finally get Noburi's full opinion on the situation.
  • Do something calming and rote to relax a little, like making explosives.
  • Help Keiko plan for her upcoming fight.
  • Once Jiraiya returns, discuss the situation (include Noburi and Keiko; high-OPSEC conditions):
    • How long before we'll have to leave Mist?
    • Second meeting with Ami. Should it happen? If so:
      • Should we seek a honest answer regarding whether she's in danger/wants a political marriage?
      • Would require better OPSEC measures. A walk across the bay followed by a picnic?
      • We're a bit shaken from recent events. Any advice?
    • If Jiraiya approves, send a letter. Contents:
      • Decline the favour.
      • Set up the second meeting.
        • Place: "near" a random restaurant.
        • Time: tomorrow? (Jiraiya's call.)
  • If Jiraiya allows us outside:
    • Watch today's matches.
    • Verify Ami's story (if time permits).
      • Disguise: civilian. Collaborate with Noburi. Ideas:
        • Historian interested in Mist's culinary.
        • Scribe apprentice.
      • Visit a few restaurants. Inquire about their history, then ask about:
        • Connection between Byakuren's Cookbook and Experimental Cuisine.
        • Byakuren's Cookbook serving large groups of ninja.
      • Byakuren's Cookbook: name-drop Ami for regulars-only menu.
    • If anyone talks about Hazou and Ami: no comment.
Click to expand...
Click to shrink...
 
SHIKAMARU: (panicking) Dad! I think Keiko just broke off the engagement!

SHIKAKU: (suddenly alert) <processing, do not disturb>

SHIKAMARU: (fidgets nervously for several seconds)

SHIKAKU: Clearly, Hazou has--

SHIKAMARU: OH FOR FUCKS SAKE!
 
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Cariyaga said:
Uh, do we have any plans for what we do in the meantime?
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  • Merchants
  • Talk to our Mother
  • Oyabun
  • Hanging out with folks not from Leaf.
    • Would be nice to add Sand Genin to the International Pen Pal club.
  • Hanging out with Leaf people in a way that deepens relationships.

I mean, I love the Ami madness as much as the next eldritch abomination, but it's like all the other psuedo-plans and errands just vanished from existence the instant we started on this. We have a few days in Mist left, and thats if we choose to stay a day or two longer than everyone else to tie up loose ends.

Let's finish our to-do list and then get the everloving fuck out of this hellhole.
 
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