- Location
- Somewhere I shouldn't be
Eh, our ability to speak would just be Sealed when Dandeer got bored.
Dragon Ball: After the End
..Yup, realized that when I saw the full version. Here's an attempt to trim it down, though I likely won't be able to do another since I need to sleep soon (feel free to try to further trim it down if you want!)
[] Make it about Jaffur
-[] Explain how the Sealing has been influencing Jaron and Jaffur, including the suicide attempt.
-[] Sealing Vegeta was necessary, sealing Jaffur wasn't. Dandeer's sealing of Jaffur what alienated him and everyone else here.
-[] If she doesn't believe this, she can ask Jaffur.
-[] You've talked to Ancestor Gohan. He admitted he was wrong about Jaffur needing to be dealt with, and Dandeer can do the same. You can show the memory.
-[] Sealing Jaffur will not fix anything and not give her what she want, and the only chance she has of being forgiven by Jaffur is to unseal him. Her magic can only subtract, not add.
-[] Counter arguments from Dandeer and move the points around if necessary. Tell her that this is about Jaffur, not about her or you.
-[] Attempt to telepathically tell Yammar how to break the chains if you get a chance.
-[] If/when Dandeer tries to shut us up (not including weak punches or kicks), implement Future Kakara's plan.
--[] The same goes if you're done arguing and your words have no effect.
--[] While escaping, concisely explain how to break the shackles, or, if you managed to contact Yammar, tell him to escape as well.
Edit:
Well, since I doubt I'm going to make a shorter version before going to bed, please put this one in, @PoptartProdigy.
Last edited:
- Location
- Australia
Then you said you'll reserve my last cookie for talking Dandeer down.
Not only did you say it was possible to talk her down, you confirmed the validity of spending a cookie on the action by banking one towards that end. For all that it's now considered to "obviously" be impossible, you gave me every reason to believe it was an actual possibility. I have legitimate reason to be upset with how this was handled, and my desire to be given full clarity regarding this subject is fair, not rude.
Last edited:
- Location
- Here and there
- Pronouns
- He/Him
No letting Dandeer inside our head for obvious reasons please.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
On the other hand, we could always fuck her up from inside her head...
WorthyAlchemist?
100% certifiably without-a-doubt mediocre
- Location
- That place...yeah that one
Well now they're saying we can't make Dandeer surrender when she's about to win. I'm not actually sure how cookies work but if you were putting a cookie in and the information used to make that decision has changed (which it seems has happened) then Poptart is probably reasonable enough to let you have it back since it hasn't been used yet. Though you were coming off as pretty aggressive.
- Location
- Mid-Atlantic
I think Andres is frustrated because his other cookie was expended effectively uselessly on grabbing Dandeer as a hostage.
I do not want to go there.
That is not a place for going to.
It is not a place of honor.
It is full of very bad things.
The inside of Dandeer's mind?
I do not want to go there.
That is not a place for going to.
It is not a place of honor.
It is full of very bad things.
Last edited:
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Your phrasing is rude. You are being aggressive and uncharitable. This is what we refer to as rude; one's presentation of a desire, rather than the desire in and of itself. It would of course be utterly farcical to suggest that a feeling is, in and of itself, rude. It is your aggressiveness, and your immediate leap to demands, that is rude. To be clear on the core of my objection to your phrasing, specifically: you phrased your objection as an order. As instructions, which you were entitled to issue and I was obliged to obey. Neither are true, and the tacit assumption that they are is deeply offensive, and precisely calculated for couterproductivity. That said, I can call out that rudeness without making any aspersions upon the validity of your complaint, and have.
What occurred is a miscommunication, rather than the active misdirection or malice your original phrasing so heavily implies. Dandeer is not going to surrender to Kakara. She's currently in her moment of triumph over the girl she considers to be her nemesis. You can still convince her of things, but going from on your knees before her to the reversed state on words alone is not going to happen. Moreover, there is the fact that, at the time you asked, the subject of, "But is it really 100% impossible to do this thing, or could Poptart have overlooked Case 517,894-48cf9?" was understandably rather sore. Thus, my overcautious phrasing, which, in hindsight, was ironically incautious.
To be exactly clear: the circumstance penalty to convincing Dandeer to outright surrender that you suffer, from your current relationship with Dandeer and her supreme confidence in herself and her situation at this time, is so wide that I am wholly confident that the player base is not going to argue sufficiently impressively as to overcome it. The penalty, for reference, combining the various factors at play, comes to -217. I repeat, for emphasis: this is the penalty specifically against an outright negotiated surrender, and is quite a bit higher than the penalty against other outcomes. You all ordinarily won't get to see these penalties in advance of their relevant checks, but given the need for explicit clarity in this case, I felt like making an exception.
As for the cookie: me committing to spend it as you direct reflects exactly that I have registered and committed to your expressed feelings on the matter, and only that I have registered and committed to your expressed feelings on the matter.
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
Oh, absolutely. But it is an option.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
...Just to clarify, this would be a d100 roll against a DC of 217, where we take into account our roughly +100 bonuses:
And then on top of that we add our +54 Willpower to dealing with the Sealing?
I feel like I've maybe misunderstood something somewhere. Do all of those bonuses apply? Because if so, we'd need to roll a 63 before taking any bonus from the speech itself into account. Even after chopping off a few not-quite-relevant bonuses, that still seems way more doable than I expected. Social spec hooray?
Last edited:
Cariyaga
Handsome Gentleperson
- Location
- United States
I believe Poptart was indicating that the circumstance penalty to that roll was -217, not its DC. So we'd be rolling d100-117.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Ah, that makes sense. Although in that case, if we did roll a 95+ with a really good speech and a cookie... no, then Dandeer would have to roll incredibly low too.
Last edited:
Doomed Wombat
Let's go Darling!
- Location
- Dancing on wires!
I have to admit my instant reaction to you asking this was
Low hanging fruit ABSOFREAKINGLTLY
- Location
- Here and there
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Approximately around 0.25% chance of success I suppose. So yeah not technically impossible.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
I think a good speech could give us a +20 maybe, so adding on a Cookie or a Greater Omake Bonus (+10) and a Lesser Omake Bonus (+5) it would look more like a -82 on a d100 clash with Dandeer. Which is still really small but not quite that impossible. Call it 5%, eyeballing it?
- Location
- Here and there
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Lower I think. The problem here is the combination of both Dandeer's role and ours. assuming we have to roll an 83 or above to have a chance of winning, that's a 17% chance. In addition however, Dandeer needs to roll below a 17. Problem here is probability is multiplicative, meaning our chances are 0.17*0.17, or 2.8%
Not the best.
Not the best.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Alright, I'm quite late, but shit happened and I'm not sorry. 
Vote's open. The canned options:
And then a bunch of people wrote in various attempts to talk to Dandeer. As a reminder, these aren't final; I include them and explain them to improve their visibility and readability, but they are still subject to change. My explanations in bold.
[ ] Rebuttal Monologue
-[ ] Calmly talk about the chains, bring up the concept they use, therefore making Yammar aware.
-[ ] Be disappointed that you were unable to save Dandeer from herself, due to your anger at her.
-[ ] Bring up the faked injuries and sorcerer massacre, make it seem like we've always known the second. Freak her out and make her doubt her magic, while making it seem that's why we weren't on her side.
-[ ] Mention the traitors, terrorists and her plan, make her think the only reason she got this far is because we over-estimated her, while alerting Yammar that a SSJ needs to get out.
-[ ] Point out the damage she did to Jaffur and Jaron, driving them to suicide.
-[ ] Bring up how she's destroyed anything good in her life, and is doomed to go to hell rather then be with the rest of the ancestors in heaven. Mention actually meeting them, reveal that they're against her.
-[ ] Make sure to Willpower Push.
-[ ] Counter every argument she makes calmly and fully.
-[ ] If we reach the end, and she's not turning, reveal how to break the bindings and implement Future Kakara's plan.
-[ ] If Dandeer tries to shut us up, implement Future Kakara's plan.
This plan takes an incredibly offensive tack. It treats this opportunity to talk as an opportunity to destabilize and demoralize Dandeer, with a secondary focus on information sharing with allies. While it does force some Deceit checks, it also contains enough offensive Communication checks that Dandeer will be heavily debuffed from even noticing (assuming that Kakara beats Dandeer's opposed Communication checks on the demoralize attempts, which...yeah, no bet). Explicitly uses a willpower push. Also contains explicit provisions to implement The Plan in the event of failure, thus meaning that we would not at that point break for a vote and instead would proceed through the execution of The Plan.
[ ] Talk it out
- [ ] Apologize: Kakara has let her anger get the better of her all these years [Intent: Catch Dandeer off guard, get her to listen. Kakara is genuine, though: As much as she hates her, Kakakra can sympathize. She still remembers her early years, just faintly, when she was considered a weakling by everybody and was something of an outcast because of it.]
- [ ] Explain: Kakara did this for Jaffur. She has had dreams of Grandpa Gohan visiting her. He taught her the Spirit Bomb, and told her what happened to Jaffur was wrong. [Intent: Play into Ancestor cult worship, play into Dandeer's care for Jaffur.]
- [ ] Implore: Be careful with Jaffur. Something else she learned [implied to be from Gohan] was that Jaron and Jaffur are different people. It'd be very easy to kill Jaron. Also... Jaron tried to kill himself. She's scared for others being similarly sealed.
- [ ] Assure: Kakara didn't do this to destroy Dandeer's life. She just wanted to help her friend.
This one appears to be somewhat incomplete, going by the writer's comments, but for various reasons I'll take it as is and trust that it's still under development. This takes a starkly different tack from the above, being notably conciliatory. This one's taking the long-odds shot at defusing the seething hatred between Kakara and Dandeer. It does so by hammering, hard, on Dandeer's, "family," button, which to be fair is the largest and most obvious one she has. No willpower push included. Will break for voting upon either success or failure.
[ ] Kakara has an alteration to the plan in mind.
-[ ] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
-[ ] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
This is the plan to free Yammar while also throwing in a psychological attack to disorient Dandeer and improve your chances. Absolutely vicious, goes for the throat with possibly the most dismaying and cruel thing Kakara could possibly say to Dandeer at the moment. No willpower push. Will break for voting upon either success or failure in the ultimate objective of freeing Yammar.
[ ] Damage mitigation speech.
-[ ] "Well, looks like we've lost this battle."
-[ ] "For the record, if you're going to put yourself in this hole again, there's something you should know."
--[ ] Mention that Jaron was going to commit suicide while TP'ing Yammar to let him in on the plan.
---[ ] "Anyway, bye"
----[ ] Initiate future plan.
This plan is conservative in its aims, hoping primarily to demoralize Dandeer and reign in some of her worst tendencies before immediately getting onto The Plan. No willpower push. Will break for voting upon resolution of The Plan.
[] Make it about Jaffur
-[] Explain how the Sealing has been influencing Jaron and Jaffur, including the suicide attempt.
-[] Sealing Vegeta was necessary, sealing Jaffur wasn't. Dandeer's sealing of Jaffur what alienated him and everyone else here.
-[] If she doesn't believe this, she can ask Jaffur.
-[] You've talked to Ancestor Gohan. He admitted he was wrong about Jaffur needing to be dealt with, and Dandeer can do the same. You can show the memory.
-[] Sealing Jaffur will not fix anything and not give her what she want, and the only chance she has of being forgiven by Jaffur is to unseal him. Her magic can only subtract, not add.
-[] Counter arguments from Dandeer and move the points around if necessary. Tell her that this is about Jaffur, not about her or you.
-[] Attempt to telepathically tell Yammar how to break the chains if you get a chance.
-[] If/when Dandeer tries to shut us up (not including weak punches or kicks), implement Future Kakara's plan.
--[] The same goes if you're done arguing and your words have no effect.
--[] While escaping, concisely explain how to break the shackles, or, if you managed to contact Yammar, tell him to escape as well.
Per the title, this attempts to focus the conversation on Jaffur as a subject. Kakara leverages everything she can to emphasize that Dandeer is making a mistake. Again, long-odds attempt at getting Dandeer to make a heel-face turn at this late hour. As a secondary objective, attempts to give Yammar information on how to be helpful with The Plan. The Plan, incidentally, is the explicitly-noted failure condition, meaning that on a failure we would proceed directly to The Plan without a vote. No willpower push.
Have fun, everybody!
Vote's open. The canned options:[ ] The original plan. As the vision counseled, Kakara will break her restraints, wreak havoc in order to give the Senzus an opportunity to escape, and send messages to as many people as she can giving them the coordinates to Senzu Hall and an order to get under cover. When she is finally subdued, she will cast herself free in a mind projection to escape Sealing. She'll find a safe place to anchor, and find a way to get stronger in preparation for her return later.
[ ] Kakara has an alteration to the plan in mind.
-[ ] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
-[ ] Despite the vision's very explicit warning to not go for Jaffur, Kakara intends to try. Again, anything else will need to wait.
[ ] It is the worst chance she's ever faced, including the fight with Yammar that she just lost, but Kakara intends to let her vision's plan go hang. She'll break free, sure, but she intends to win outright. (OOC: I'm only not saying that this is physically impossible because I'm not capable of envisioning every possibility in Creation. Take at your own risk).
-[ ] Write-in tactics.
[ ] Write-in.
[ ] Kakara has an alteration to the plan in mind.
-[ ] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
-[ ] Despite the vision's very explicit warning to not go for Jaffur, Kakara intends to try. Again, anything else will need to wait.
[ ] It is the worst chance she's ever faced, including the fight with Yammar that she just lost, but Kakara intends to let her vision's plan go hang. She'll break free, sure, but she intends to win outright. (OOC: I'm only not saying that this is physically impossible because I'm not capable of envisioning every possibility in Creation. Take at your own risk).
-[ ] Write-in tactics.
[ ] Write-in.
And then a bunch of people wrote in various attempts to talk to Dandeer. As a reminder, these aren't final; I include them and explain them to improve their visibility and readability, but they are still subject to change. My explanations in bold.
[ ] Rebuttal Monologue
-[ ] Calmly talk about the chains, bring up the concept they use, therefore making Yammar aware.
-[ ] Be disappointed that you were unable to save Dandeer from herself, due to your anger at her.
-[ ] Bring up the faked injuries and sorcerer massacre, make it seem like we've always known the second. Freak her out and make her doubt her magic, while making it seem that's why we weren't on her side.
-[ ] Mention the traitors, terrorists and her plan, make her think the only reason she got this far is because we over-estimated her, while alerting Yammar that a SSJ needs to get out.
-[ ] Point out the damage she did to Jaffur and Jaron, driving them to suicide.
-[ ] Bring up how she's destroyed anything good in her life, and is doomed to go to hell rather then be with the rest of the ancestors in heaven. Mention actually meeting them, reveal that they're against her.
-[ ] Make sure to Willpower Push.
-[ ] Counter every argument she makes calmly and fully.
-[ ] If we reach the end, and she's not turning, reveal how to break the bindings and implement Future Kakara's plan.
-[ ] If Dandeer tries to shut us up, implement Future Kakara's plan.
This plan takes an incredibly offensive tack. It treats this opportunity to talk as an opportunity to destabilize and demoralize Dandeer, with a secondary focus on information sharing with allies. While it does force some Deceit checks, it also contains enough offensive Communication checks that Dandeer will be heavily debuffed from even noticing (assuming that Kakara beats Dandeer's opposed Communication checks on the demoralize attempts, which...yeah, no bet). Explicitly uses a willpower push. Also contains explicit provisions to implement The Plan in the event of failure, thus meaning that we would not at that point break for a vote and instead would proceed through the execution of The Plan.
[ ] Talk it out
- [ ] Apologize: Kakara has let her anger get the better of her all these years [Intent: Catch Dandeer off guard, get her to listen. Kakara is genuine, though: As much as she hates her, Kakakra can sympathize. She still remembers her early years, just faintly, when she was considered a weakling by everybody and was something of an outcast because of it.]
- [ ] Explain: Kakara did this for Jaffur. She has had dreams of Grandpa Gohan visiting her. He taught her the Spirit Bomb, and told her what happened to Jaffur was wrong. [Intent: Play into Ancestor cult worship, play into Dandeer's care for Jaffur.]
- [ ] Implore: Be careful with Jaffur. Something else she learned [implied to be from Gohan] was that Jaron and Jaffur are different people. It'd be very easy to kill Jaron. Also... Jaron tried to kill himself. She's scared for others being similarly sealed.
- [ ] Assure: Kakara didn't do this to destroy Dandeer's life. She just wanted to help her friend.
This one appears to be somewhat incomplete, going by the writer's comments, but for various reasons I'll take it as is and trust that it's still under development. This takes a starkly different tack from the above, being notably conciliatory. This one's taking the long-odds shot at defusing the seething hatred between Kakara and Dandeer. It does so by hammering, hard, on Dandeer's, "family," button, which to be fair is the largest and most obvious one she has. No willpower push included. Will break for voting upon either success or failure.
[ ] Kakara has an alteration to the plan in mind.
-[ ] Reveal Jaron's suicidal tendencies in the most painful, distracting way we can, to whit: "Jaffur, what do you think the chances are that Jaron will kill himself to get away from her?"
-[ ] Kakara plans to free Yammar as well. Anything else will need to wait until she sees how this shakes out, because she won't be able to focus on anything until it has.
This is the plan to free Yammar while also throwing in a psychological attack to disorient Dandeer and improve your chances. Absolutely vicious, goes for the throat with possibly the most dismaying and cruel thing Kakara could possibly say to Dandeer at the moment. No willpower push. Will break for voting upon either success or failure in the ultimate objective of freeing Yammar.
[ ] Damage mitigation speech.
-[ ] "Well, looks like we've lost this battle."
-[ ] "For the record, if you're going to put yourself in this hole again, there's something you should know."
--[ ] Mention that Jaron was going to commit suicide while TP'ing Yammar to let him in on the plan.
---[ ] "Anyway, bye"
----[ ] Initiate future plan.
This plan is conservative in its aims, hoping primarily to demoralize Dandeer and reign in some of her worst tendencies before immediately getting onto The Plan. No willpower push. Will break for voting upon resolution of The Plan.
[] Make it about Jaffur
-[] Explain how the Sealing has been influencing Jaron and Jaffur, including the suicide attempt.
-[] Sealing Vegeta was necessary, sealing Jaffur wasn't. Dandeer's sealing of Jaffur what alienated him and everyone else here.
-[] If she doesn't believe this, she can ask Jaffur.
-[] You've talked to Ancestor Gohan. He admitted he was wrong about Jaffur needing to be dealt with, and Dandeer can do the same. You can show the memory.
-[] Sealing Jaffur will not fix anything and not give her what she want, and the only chance she has of being forgiven by Jaffur is to unseal him. Her magic can only subtract, not add.
-[] Counter arguments from Dandeer and move the points around if necessary. Tell her that this is about Jaffur, not about her or you.
-[] Attempt to telepathically tell Yammar how to break the chains if you get a chance.
-[] If/when Dandeer tries to shut us up (not including weak punches or kicks), implement Future Kakara's plan.
--[] The same goes if you're done arguing and your words have no effect.
--[] While escaping, concisely explain how to break the shackles, or, if you managed to contact Yammar, tell him to escape as well.
Per the title, this attempts to focus the conversation on Jaffur as a subject. Kakara leverages everything she can to emphasize that Dandeer is making a mistake. Again, long-odds attempt at getting Dandeer to make a heel-face turn at this late hour. As a secondary objective, attempts to give Yammar information on how to be helpful with The Plan. The Plan, incidentally, is the explicitly-noted failure condition, meaning that on a failure we would proceed directly to The Plan without a vote. No willpower push.
Have fun, everybody!
[X] The original plan. As the vision counseled, Kakara will break her restraints, wreak havoc in order to give the Senzus an opportunity to escape, and send messages to as many people as she can giving them the coordinates to Senzu Hall and an order to get under cover. When she is finally subdued, she will cast herself free in a mind projection to escape Sealing. She'll find a safe place to anchor, and find a way to get stronger in preparation for her return later.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
@PoptartProdigy what about attempting to Sense the Invasion Fleet, as an addon to... just about any plan? Did I need to write it up as an explicit vote format?
If so:
[X]Plan My Body Is My Own
-[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet with Yammar.
If so:
[X]Plan My Body Is My Own
-[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet with Yammar.
- Location
- Rockford, USA
- Pronouns
- They/Them
Slap it on as an addition to your vote.
- Location
- Actually pretty lost
Wish I'd realised in time for the write-in roundup.
[X] Rebuttal Monologue
-[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet with Yammar.
Last edited:
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Wish I'd realised in time for the write-in roundup.
[X] Rebuttal Monologue
[X] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet with Yammar.
If you want that to be tallied as an addition rather than approval voting, I'm pretty sure you need to format it like so:
[ ] Rebuttal Monologue
-[ ] Attempt to Sense the Incoming Invasion Fleet (with a Willpower Push if necessary). If successful, immediately break free and IT to the Fleet with Yammar.
If the second line is supposed to just stand on its own then my bad, it's fine as-is, but that's not how I interpreted your earlier intentions.