Yeah, alright. I'll vote tactically if it means Mari will whack Hazou in the face with the "End This Subplot Already" bat.
[X] Action Plan: Getting a Clue
Still want to improve Lee, but there's always next update.
Marked for Death: A Rational Naruto Quest
- Thread starter eaglejarl
- Start date
-
- Tags
- naruto rationalist romance armageddon is looking better and better damn you kishimoto explosions everywhere explosives solve everyone if in doubt surrender to the mercy of zabuza it seemed like a good idea at the time looks like a really bad case of being a jōnin my god. where does the lore end? precommitting is the winning plan screaming in kagome screw the rules i have explosives something bad might still happen sometimes you gotta sociopath stabby zabby subsection c of paragraph 9 should include we can weaponize this so hard
Yeah, alright. I'll vote tactically if it means Mari will whack Hazou in the face with the "End This Subplot Already" bat.
[X] Action Plan: Getting a Clue
Still want to improve Lee, but there's always next update.
- Location
- USA
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Hang on there... Where did we imply that? That's certainly not what I believe, at least. Quite the contrary, actually. Eventually Hazō will develop more social skills and lose this Trouble, but he will always be the sincere guy that he is.
- Location
- Snakesden
I think @eaglejarl thinks something like the following:
"Hazou has an established characterization of being somewhat socially inept. The rules exist to ease simulation of the world, but not at the expense of making it gamey rather than simulationist. Regardless of whether it's mechanically his Trouble, it's gonna be a problem for him until he's undergone a lot of character growth. However, we are willing to gradually transition him over to another Trouble (such as Savior Complex) in a way that keeps his character intact."
Now, something I'm not sure about is what conditions would have to be met for this Trouble-transition. It does seem like we've put effort into this at various times (training relevant stats, asking Mari for help, putting things like "be considerate" into plans); I'm not sure if the QMs are just looking for more efforts in the same vein, or something qualitatively different.
But overall, it seems like you and EJ are largely on the same page here?
- Location
- Europe
Can't we just combine both of them? They aren't mutally exclusive?
I'm fine with that, but the point of this voting is to lock out "Continue the Plan", which is currently in the lead.
Edit:
[X] Action Plan: A Contest of Eternal Clues
- Enact both "A Contest of Eternal Rivals" and "Getting a Clue".
Last edited:
- Location
- Europe
[-] Action Plan: Getting a Clue
[X] Action Plan: A Contest of Eternal Rivals
[X] Action Plan: A Contest of Eternal Clues
[X] Action Plan: A Contest of Eternal Rivals
[X] Action Plan: A Contest of Eternal Clues
Last edited:
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
[X] Action Plan: A Contest of Eternal Clues
Inserted tally
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
I think you're misinterpreting the discussion. My original point was that, insofar as the advantage and disadvantage of Hazō's Trouble are two sides of the same coin, we should consider both when talking about changing his Trouble, rather than just focusing on ditching the negative. Hazō will always be sincere as a character trait, but to the extent that his unfiltered, "painful" sincerity is tied to his readiness to speak before he thinks (which is what the Trouble represents), you can't change one while leaving the other completely untouched. When people change significant parts of themselves, they do not do so in a compartmentalised fashion.
For the second quote, you argued that Akane's sincerity was represented by a much lighter Trouble. I pointed out that it wasn't, because that wasn't the Aspect which was modelling it, and that in practice, her "other side of the coin" was just as bad in its own way. I at no point generalised this to all sincere people ever.
- Location
- Academy City
- Pronouns
- They
[X] Action Plan: A Contest of Eternal Rivals
[X] Action Plan: Getting a Clue
[X] Action Plan: Getting a Clue
Given that the subtext seemed to be
"Sincerity should have a negative downside of social/emotional problems, which is why Hazou would lose sincerity if he loses that downside."
"Here is a counter-example where that is not the case, proving that sincerity does not require such a downside."
"This counter-example is invalid."
It felt like you were making that generalisation.
- Location
- The Maple Syrup Mountains
For what it's worth, I would totally be okay with losing the mechanical side of Hazou's sincerity (and whatever narrative effects that has on how Hazou's sincerity is described) in exchange for taking up a different Trouble like Saviour Syndrome and thus putting Hazou on the path to mitigating his Open Mouth, Insert Foot troubles.
Also, since I know neutral voices can easily sound negative in aggregate, I'd just like to stress that I think you've handled all this very well so far. Not only Hazou's characterization (as much as I want to get rid of Open Mouth, Insert Foot I can recognize that it fits Hazou's character as it grew over the course of the quest and you model it well) but also our discussion about Hazou's characterization. Thanks for keeping a level head!
Hazou's tendency to speak even when it pisses people off does have some advantages. Yes, it can anger or upset people, but they walk away convinced that he says what he thinks. Which means that when he actually does want to leverage his Deception score, he has one of the most valuable assets you can have.... a reputation as an honest man. Mechanically this means that he can invoke his Trouble under the right circumstances as he could any other aspect.
INO: Wait, did you really mean to do that?
HAZOU: (confidently) Of course I did! (Rolls Deception. Invokes 'Open Mouth Insert Foot' because Ino knows he's so sincere and just blurts out his true feelings, making his lies more credible.)
INO: Wait, did you really mean to do that?
HAZOU: (confidently) Of course I did! (Rolls Deception. Invokes 'Open Mouth Insert Foot' because Ino knows he's so sincere and just blurts out his true feelings, making his lies more credible.)
Dissonance
Luna's Luna
- Location
- Ginnungagap.
- Pronouns
- S/H/T
Last edited:
- Location
- Yes.
"That doesn't delve into squick territory"
I actually didn't. I said that Akane can be sincere without eating her own foot, which is true, and on a seperate chain of discussion I argued that Noburi and Akane have lighter Troubles than Hazou, and that this shows that Troubles don't need to be as troublesome as what Hazou currently has, which is also true.
It would have been much easier if you had opened with that, rather than with "If Hazō permanently removes his foot from his mouth, should he also lose the power to move people with unfiltered sincerity?" which makes it sound like he's going to lose his sincerity if he undergoes character development to not be so socially clumsy.
I apologise that I'm sounding annoyed, by the way.
Inserted tally
- Location
- UK
- Pronouns
- He/Him
Therein lies our miscommunication. To me, it seemed clear that
was referring specifically to Hazō and Hazō's Trouble, rather than being a general statement about sincerity. Hence I also assumed that your reference to Akane was as a parallel to Hazō, rather than as an example of sincerity in general.
Can we consider this resolved?
Not at all. You're still being perfectly civil (balm to my soul after what I started the morning with), and you've built up tons of reputational credit with me for the purposes of assuming good faith. Besides, I probably sound annoyed as well.
Emstar
The Shining One
- Location
- Trapped in an extradimensional rift.
- Pronouns
- She/They
I think this is the nuclear option.
So like, heres what I mean:
The above was a quickly (yet carefully) constructed maneuver that ideally accomplishes the following:
- Hazou has no IC reason to flat out lolnope it (He has demonstrated he is willing to go really dang far for Akane).
- Weaponizing his social ineptitude and infinite sincerity to inform anyone with enough experience in the matter that:
- The Akane Situation is fucked beyond belief
- Hazou doesn't yet realize how fucked it is
- This needs to be taken care of.
- Ends this poor boys torturous delusions before they grow to be visible next to the supermassive blackhole of Keiko's own delusions.
I believe it accomplishes the above in a way that is easily reworded and reworked to fit in another interaction with another character. So this can pretty much be reused as needed over the course of the next in universe week until the problem is solved.
Alternative solutions:
- Attempt the above with anyone from that list that Hazou hasn't talked to yet.
- Attempt the above with Hana when she arrives.
- Get lunch with Ino.
- Manipulate things so that Akane is somehow forced to clarify things.
- Board game night with Third Party (Hazous mom?) present to have a round of introductions.
- Ask Akane out on a date.
- Etc.
Ideally, we need to expand on "Alternative ways to leverage Hazous characterization to resolve this massive issue", since those are less damaging overall.
In contrast there are a big pile of nuclear options that will end this immediately, but I would rather our cheerful and idealistic protagonist still have a soul when all is said and done, thank you very much.
- Location
- Phoenix, AZ
I mean, if Akane's into nuclear dates, I'm willing to consider pursuing her romantically, even if it's hard. That said, I'm fairly sure she's in the "no global annihilation" camp.
Edit: in all seriousness, Hazou should ask her on a date sometime soon as a normal course of "thinking he's in a normal relationship." That should clear things up.
Last edited: