Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] Plan: Plan Simple Research
-[X] Branch College
--[X] Headquarters: Karag Nar
--[X] Charter: Research
--[X] Colleges (all)
-[X] Karak Eight Peaks: To the degree it safely and sustainably can, let K8P gather, preserve, and disseminate knowledge to all goodly folk. Let the tool of this boon be a library and all the books that might be gathered to it, watched over by those of any race who would swear and be accepted as librarians.
-[X] Karak Kadrin Engineers Guild: A gyrocarriage
Credit to @ReImagined for Plan Template.
[X] Plan: Cleaned Up College of Collaboration
- Location
- Finland
My problem with the plan is not actually the cooperation focus, my issue is lack of research focus, which is why i made my own plan that atleast tried to join the research and cooperation together.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
???
Charter: Research: Studies involving collaboration between the Colleges of Magic, and between the Colleges and divine miracle-workers, with a particular focus on working with Runesmiths.
- Location
- Finland
I am unable to understand how you are able to so thoroughly miss the point, even after all this time.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Lack of research focus seems unlikely to be a problem, though:
And the collaborative mandate, while wide, is not actually all-encompassing. Here is a short list of things that can't fall under a collaborative mission statement:
- Spell R&D for a specific Wind (so no Rite of Way, but yes to theoretically trying to make a spell into Lesser Magic like the one Bright LM did)
- Research into Arcane Marks
- Standard enchanting
- Development of magical tricks unique to particular Winds (like the Ulgu spells that we use for Tool-Free Enchanting)
[X] Plan: Cleaned Up College of Collaboration
Since the downside people were worried about of "it can't clear our artifact backlog" has been dealt with and the downside of "it's too broad and will doom us" has also been dealt with.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
I'm kinda with Redshirt here- I don't understand your concerns, really, because the things you say you are concerned about are things that seem, to me at least, to be bteer addressed by the plan you oppose than the plan you are voting for.
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Please clarify your point, because I also don't seem to get it.
- Location
- Earth
'Multi-wind studies' was not a descriptor for the whole, but rather one prong of it. Single wind interactions with runes would surely be covered under enchanting and artifice if it were to come up.
I see no need for the black orc martial favor to recruit damsels (if that's going to be a thing) be done with research institute half-actions. That sounds like a job task. Sure, we can do some job tasks with the research institute, but we don't need to get all of them. For the rest, sure, that's fair.
Edit: Whoops. Had a few drafts mixed up in my clipboard. Please ignore if anybody saw any of that.
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
Bearing in mind that any project done under the auspices of the college is necessarily shared credit (with the college) what are you imagining folks wanting to do within the college and being unwilling to work with anyone else on?
You used "co-operation focus" to mean "is focused on co-operation" and then used "research focus" to mean "having a focus within the region of research".
Using the same word with two different meanings in such quick succession has a tendency to lead to confusion unless it's a particularly common word.
Wiadi
Uncompromising Radical Leftist
- Location
- Something Clever
- Pronouns
- She/Her
[X] Plan: Cleaned Up College of Collaboration
I am so unspeakably tired of hearing about the fucking backlog that if by some bizarre miracle this option turns out not to address it I'll consider that a blessing.
I am so unspeakably tired of hearing about the fucking backlog that if by some bizarre miracle this option turns out not to address it I'll consider that a blessing.
- Location
- Austria
Valmond refers to lack of focus in research, not lack of focus on research, I believe.
Which, tbf. There is a whole lot of things which can be improved by collaborating between wizards. Boney, I believe, did say that more or less all we did with Ducklings would qualify, which is a spectrum from Tower of Gazul to Skaventech, which couldn't possibly be more different.
But, at the very least it excludes monowind spell research, which is a decent chunk of what College wizards do. So it is a subset of Research(All) still, I suspect it still covers more than half of Research space, but even if it covered 90% we'd apparently be safe, as the Danger Zone is trying to do literally everything at once.
- Location
- Finland
Yes, but if we want to specify beyond "research" i want to see talk about actual research, somekind of focus beyond "you need a study buddy".
And i am not fully sure we could not somehow twist those into group projects as well.
And i am almost certain some of us would try if they had the change.
- Location
- France
So I've been reading BoneyM's comments but not the whole thread. What's this about needing to swing the vote due to new information?
IIRC I voted for Redshirt's plan (Gun version). Should I be switching to an updated one? Has there been a relevant ruling or something?
IIRC I voted for Redshirt's plan (Gun version). Should I be switching to an updated one? Has there been a relevant ruling or something?
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
You're still voting, it's just that the tally is now counting your post here instead of your post here.
I am sorry for your confusion and I definitely find "aaaaahhh I am epistemically paralyzed" extremely relatable; if there's anything you want clarity on that I might be able to help with, feel free to tag me in a post or just PM me.
Very well said.Valmond refers to lack of focus in research, not lack of focus on research, I believe.
Which, tbf. There is a whole lot of things which can be improved by collaborating between wizards. Boney, I believe, did say that more or less all we did with Ducklings would qualify, which is a spectrum from Tower of Gazul to Skaventech, which couldn't possibly be more different.
But, at the very least it excludes monowind spell research, which is a decent chunk of what College wizards do. So it is a subset of Research(All) still, I suspect it still covers more than half of Research space, but even if it covered 90% we'd apparently be safe, as the Danger Zone is trying to do literally everything at once.
Respectfully: that sounds like a you-thing and not like a "this has to happen for the branch to be viable" thing. It is totally fine if the statement is not to your taste, that is a valid preference to hold, but it is a workable statement (by previous Word of QM) and a statement that does not land us in the Hochland Zone (again by word of QM).
Last night there was a shift where both of the planmakers for the previous top two plans (myself and Redshirt) united behind a new plan, Plan: Cleaned Up College of Collaboration. It's now number 2. A lot of people had concerns about it, though, and that's been most of the last, jeez, ten pages of discussion.
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
Just a lot of discussion that has resulted in people preferring different plans. The Gyrocopter seems to have stabilised (for now at least) now there's a discussion on the phrasing of the library, and on the nature of the research the Branch College will do.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
Basically people went back and realized that we didn't like the way the library and charter were phrased, after we had mostly settled on Karag Nar, the libray, and the Gyrocopter. So I wrote up a new library bit that was more focused on including other species and sharing info, and we are going back and forth on the branch college charter now.
I think you prob should update your vote, and please allow me to push College Of Collaboration as the best current plan.
Magnos III
(Unverified Planeswalker)
Yeah, I tried to say that but I got the impression that people think that if we did Research+Library it would be something like:
Colleges: What's this? Mathilde wants to do a Branch of Research AND the Library? How dare she! Very well we shall send only the worst, most incompetent apprentices we have to help her plus the ones we are suspicious or being chaos-worshipers. And add in some dwarf-haters for good measure! That will teach her!
While if we did Research Only it would be:
Colleges: What's this? Mathilde wants to do a Branch of Research and Research Only? How wonderful! We shall send our biggest, most brilliant Magisters and even one or two Lord Magisters for good measure! Oh and I'm sure we could give Teclis a call to show up and give her some tips at some point too!
So I went to bed but now it seems that the Thread attitude has become:
Colleges: What's this? Mathilde wants to do a Branch of Research and Research Only? But she was too broad when writing the Charter? How dare she! We only do Branch Colleges about very specific things, like that wonderful Bocce Ball College Research in Averland, where we have five Lord Magisters trying to figure out how to play it using magic! Well, if she wants to play smart then we shall give her incompetent people and make sure that she will forever have to spend 3 APs pert turn in this nefarious institution! That will teach her!
So, yeah, this vote is being a fun mess.
- Location
- Europa, Jupiter Orbit
I'm a bit worried that the new proposed charters hinge too much on the Wind-herding stuff. That's something that might not even be possible without someone with the Wind-herder trait. And I don't know if that's something we can reliably teach others.
Honestly, I don't think the Research part of the charter was that bad. I'd just really like some second part that is somehow about Dwarves or multi-racial/multi-national cooperation.
Mathilde seems to be unable to stay two decades in one place, but that isn't anything like the norm among people, Wizard or no.
And that all ignores a potential new generation of Ducklings, except if they happen to be research-oriented Ducklings.
The charter's point would be "go to this place if you're interested in combining your magic with other magics in some complicated project".
It's why I went with "the study and creation of magical objects, substances and flora" in my own.
Need I go on?
The Grey College teaches diplomacy, subterfuge, interrogation and assassination.
The Light College teaches cooperative casting, philosophy and sniffing out and attacking the dark arts and Chaos.
The Jade College teaches healing, sociology, domestic zoology and minor religious studies.
The Amber College teaches zoology, survival, anti-beastman tactics and animal psychology.
The Amethyst College teaches parapsychology, forensics, religion, fighting and containing Undead and acceptance of mortality.
The Celestial College teaches astronomy, astrology, meteorology, divination, etiquette and a little marketing and psychology.
The Bright College teaches military tactics, fire fighting (both directions), channeling passion and first aid.
All of them teach combat.
If you don't want to do any of that stuff and would rather work like the Gold, or if you are a Gold but would actually like to work on plants or just not be in a Gold-dominated environment, come to a College with that "really broad" charter.
Not as in tell us what will actually happen. Just as in, how would the charter be judged by a) generic magister bureaucrat having to put his stamp of approval on it and b) generic Journeyman looking for something to do and reading through a brochure of College Branches.
Honestly, I don't think the Research part of the charter was that bad. I'd just really like some second part that is somehow about Dwarves or multi-racial/multi-national cooperation.
These Ducklings might want to, a few years down the line. Remember that Panoramia is still not a Magister and she wasn't a fresh Journeyman when she joined the K8P expedition. Similarly Max hasn't really done his own thing yet and only made Magister due to some deal we made with his College. He was planning to first become a Master in something else, then combine it with magic. Adela is bringing more and more family to Karag Nar and Hubert might decide to be a perpetual Journeyman.
Mathilde seems to be unable to stay two decades in one place, but that isn't anything like the norm among people, Wizard or no.
And that all ignores a potential new generation of Ducklings, except if they happen to be research-oriented Ducklings.
Turns out the 24 hours weren't enough for us this time. We obviously still had a lot of questions and misunderstandings that have since been answered. Especially around the importance of charters.
I'd guess this, with a big emphasis of just seeing how the Branch naturally develops under Mathilde's tutelage.
The charter's point would be "go to this place if you're interested in combining your magic with other magics in some complicated project".
Research focused exclusively or is something like Research + Education or Research + Outpost acceptable to you?
The College will collaborate with the Library due to not being idiots that ignore a giant library next door. A Library focus would mean working at/for the Library as specialized librarians. You don't need that to make maximum use of an existing library for your research.
That might be the OOC reason it looks like it does. But it ends up being a Research
If you dropped ecology from your original version of the charter it wouldn't cover things like Windsoak Mushrooms or Waytrees anymore.
It's why I went with "the study and creation of magical objects, substances and flora" in my own.
If the Branch includes the Outpost role then they could still be a part of it, even if they aren't full time employed by it.
Good point. Even direct collaboration could be considered "a priest blessing this magic item with mysterious divine rituals".
It's not in the middle of nowhere. Being in Karag Nar is supposed to be part of the appeal. At least three Journeymen decided to come there before there was anything like a Research Institute or Grand Library.
Then we already failed a big chunk of our Waystone Project.
There's more that we can offer than money. Like putting in a good word at Barak Varr for instance. Or assassinating some obstacle. Or a minor magic item. Or money, but more of it.
It's the main Imperial institution working on Waystones. It has multiple sources of funding. It has close contact to Dwarves. It has easier and cheaper prices for any reagents imported from the east. It is lead by Lady Magister Mathilde Weber, one of the fastest rising stars of the Colleges. It has a direct line to both Laurelorn Elves and Runesmiths, even if getting one go actually work with you is still not easy, it's easier to do from there than from Altdorf or Hochland. It is not in the Empire, but it's also not in some lawless region or completely outside of Imperial jurisdiction. It has many non-Humans and foreign cultures, but there's still enough Humans to not feel out of place. Dwarves are rumored to pay really well, but usually don't really hire Wizards. K8P is different in that they do hire Wizards and have had eight on their payroll in the last decade of which none were fired.
Need I go on?
The problem of the Hochland College wasn't just that it tried to cover four branches or whatever. It was that it's charter was "Be like the Altdorf Colleges but in Hochland and cool and stuff" and failed at that. A Branch College could be successful if it's charter is broad, but follows a focused theme. Like in theory a College of Dwarven cooperation could cove Research (with and/or for Dwarves), Education (by and/or to understand Dwarves), Library (work at the Dwarven Library) and Outpost (for when you are working in Dwarven lands) and it would still be perfectly viable in attracting a certain type of Wizard and perfectly capable of achieving great things.
Presumably it would be like going to a RL college that offers studies in theoretical physics, metallurgy, geology, ecology and engineering, where you start out shopping around and then choose one of those to major in, no? Then it turns out that some of the departments are weaker than advertised and you either stick with one of the good ones or go somewhere else. Except in this world you're not in massive debt with nothing to show for it.
It specifically excludes liberal arts and direct application of magic in the field during conflict. Both things several of the Colleges back in Altdorf focus on.
The Grey College teaches diplomacy, subterfuge, interrogation and assassination.
The Light College teaches cooperative casting, philosophy and sniffing out and attacking the dark arts and Chaos.
The Jade College teaches healing, sociology, domestic zoology and minor religious studies.
The Amber College teaches zoology, survival, anti-beastman tactics and animal psychology.
The Amethyst College teaches parapsychology, forensics, religion, fighting and containing Undead and acceptance of mortality.
The Celestial College teaches astronomy, astrology, meteorology, divination, etiquette and a little marketing and psychology.
The Bright College teaches military tactics, fire fighting (both directions), channeling passion and first aid.
All of them teach combat.
If you don't want to do any of that stuff and would rather work like the Gold, or if you are a Gold but would actually like to work on plants or just not be in a Gold-dominated environment, come to a College with that "really broad" charter.
What do you mean with separate from the institute? My assumption was that at least one institute we make will also be used as the umbrella organization for the Imperial members of the Waystone Project.
Are you willing to give us a short and general opinion on how you see the narrative consequences of each major charter proposal?
Not as in tell us what will actually happen. Just as in, how would the charter be judged by a) generic magister bureaucrat having to put his stamp of approval on it and b) generic Journeyman looking for something to do and reading through a brochure of College Branches.
I don't think that's anyone's greatest fear. It's more along the lines of spending a precious resource on something that doesn't provide what they hoped for.
- Location
- Finland
We are all but guaranteed some support for the waystone project.
My point was almost certainly about after project and/or without Mathilde, because my main worry has been about viability of the branch past Mathilde's involvement.
Most of that is irrelevant now though with Boney's latest comments.
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
In the real world you go to said RL college and each department has at least five professors and dozens of members even leaving out the students.
It's a whole different scale for our branch college where we won't have enough people to fill out the faculty of even one of those college departments.
There's a very real chance the journeyman shows up to get involved in geology and finds that there's literally no senior geologist. They, the newly minted journeyman, are now the entire geology department.