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Ok, now that's just ridiculous. You are saying, what, that we need to not only do Research-Only but also do one single topic and nothing else?
Let me put it this way: There's a big difference between a project to "map all of Great Britain" and a project to "map London, Manchester, Essex, Edinburgh, Wales and the Lake District".

Mapping all of Great Britain is a bigger job, but it's a single job. The other option is just an arbitrary list that feels like someone dumped out the dregs of their to-do list that they couldn't be bothered with and they're hoping you'll take it off them.
 
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For this to become an issue a Sigmarite would have to actually show up with the intention of collaborating with Dwarves, and so far I have seen no evidence that this could possibly be the case. :V
You know that every Sigmarite of prominence in the Cult, from Renier on up, is pointing at Dawongr Weber and going "See? The faithul of Sigmar are delivering on their commitment to Aid Dwarf-Folk in spades, look what this paragon of Sigmarism is doing for them" while thinking we're covering their Dwarfy Dues handily and they don't need to lift a finger.
 
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I'm not gonna be terribly upset if research-only wins but I'll still say that if we want better research in the long term it's better to do it with the library+research. The library, too, I think would be better if it had a magical section run by Wizards instead of Dwarfs so in the long term it would be much, much better to do it together.

I understand the logic there, and I've argued for somewhat similar myself, but it's been explicitly confirmed that if we want the College to be as good at research as it can be, it should be pure research focus.

I think I also have heavily underestimated the Library's capability to properly keep magical texts without College management.

I strongly prefer the original charters that were proposed in the currently leading votes because they are more open to incorporating Duckling Club. Collaboration with new magical or divine traditions is nice, but under the current wording, mundane collaboration is excluded. Projects like Panoramia's ecosystem building with the halflings and Adela's prototype guns don't seem to fit with 'Colleges, divine magic users, and runesmiths,' and any College rework that doesn't have room for them is not one I will vote for.

I understand this desire, and I also really like the Duckling Club, but we haven't actually *asked* any of them about this. For all we know we could pick a charter we're convinced the Ducklings would certainly join in on, but then it turns out more are uninterested than we expected.

I think I see some value of making the charter be more broad when it comes to collaborating with nonmagical people, though. Part of me feels like that's delving into a very different knowledge base which effectively splits the focus, but there's probably a decent amount of overlap on a social level. If the whole college culture is "hey let's respect other disciplines and work together to do things we couldn't do by ourselves", there's bound to be Wizards interested in cooperating with nonmagical disciplines as well.
 
You know that every Sigmarite of prominence in the Cult, from Renier on up, is pointing at Dawongr Weber and going "See? The faithul of Sigmar are delivering on their commitment to Aid Dwarf-Folk in spades, look what this paragon of Sigmarism is doing for them" while thinking we're covering their Dwarfy Dues handily and they don't need to lift a finger.
...I'm not sure whether to feel sorry for them, or horrifically amused if that is the case. Those poor bastards have no idea.
 
I strongly prefer the original charters that were proposed in the currently leading votes because they are more open to incorporating Duckling Club. Collaboration with new magical or divine traditions is nice, but under the current wording, mundane collaboration is excluded. Projects like Panoramia's ecosystem building with the halflings and Adela's prototype guns don't seem to fit with 'Colleges, divine magic users, and runesmiths,' and any College rework that doesn't have room for them is not one I will vote for.
I understand this desire, and I also really like the Duckling Club, but we haven't actually *asked* any of them about this. For all we know we could pick a charter we're convinced the Ducklings would certainly join in on, but then it turns out more are uninterested than we expected.
Relevant to this, I was going back through Boney posts to try to make sure I understood everything and hadn't forgotten anything, and I found something I'd forgotten:
Still, the fact that two Branches means two different organizations in need of recruiting actions doesn't dissuade me, since we can start off the Karag Nar one by folding the whole Duckling Club into it and encouraging them to recruit more Wizards while we focus on the Waystone Project at first.
Every single one of them is already currently employed. Albeit by Mathilde for Johann and Max.
Recruiting Johann and Max will be easy since they're out of a job at the same time we are, but recruiting the Journeymanlings is not something we can take for granted. Gretel is working for Braganza's Besiegers, Adela for the Gunnery School, Hubert for Ulrikadrin, and Panoramia for the Halflings. We'd still be able to, like, hang out with them, but based on this WoQM we shouldn't assume that we will be able to snap them up even if we write a charter that makes room for them.

The research institute isn't just a social club like Duckling Club, it's a workplace. And for them to actually join as faculty would require them leaving their existing jobs.
 
That offer was by Ranald and I would not be surprised if he was excommunicated at some point. :V

But seriously I don't really see the cult of Ranald as something that is functioning as a normal organization.

Honestly, the idea of Ranald pulling a prank and getting excomunicated from his own cult sounds really, really funny to me.


'Studies involving collaboration ... between the Colleges and divine miracle-workers' doesn't necessarily mean Priests studying magic. If part of the actual plan is Priests doing magical research, that's a problem. 'Magisters alone shall be permitted to study magic' and all that.

"Putting extreme Ranaldite lawyer glasses on"

Now, technically speaking, if I am reading Article 5 correctly, and I may actually not be?

5. The Colleges may bestow as they see fit upon all their own initiates full rights to study, document, practice, and experiment with the arcane forces of magic that are present in this world and also take apprentices to themselves to pass on such knowledge and wisdom as may be part of their Lore and for the good of the Empire.

The colleges can bestow rights of magic research into any initiates, they do not technically have to be capable of wielding arcane magic, just to be legally part of their organization respective to their magic researching hat.

Now, this lawyering, although amusing, seems completely useless in practice, as it, at best, allows them to hire some nonmagical researchers. No priest would desire the divided loyalty, plus, it may well be that some will disagree with that proposition anyway on the grounds that it is too legalistic and obviously not what the articles intended, that initiates means magic users, that priests cannot be initiated into colleges etc. etc. So in practice, that loophole has been completely useless until now, because even if that reading is possible in an extremely legalistic sense, it is also politically unfeasible to make.

But in the off chance we can get Sigmarites to make that precedent in some way, maybe by leaning into our dwarven contacts, wellllll... no one will actually disagree that yes, priests can be appointed magisters and study magic if the colleges and the priest agree on such an appointment, as the colleges have the right to grant that right. The priests wont disagree because the greatest opponents of the colleges gave their stamp, and even if worst comes to worst Sigmarites still have 3 votes in the elector meeting, and the colleges won't disagree because it gives them more legitimacy and authority, and anyway, they are in full control in what permissions they grant to initiates according to article 5.

Now, of course, the pie in the sky here is getting the Sigmarites to back that horse, which even with our status as Dawi will be hellishly hard, and not to even be attempted before diplo 20 at the very least (even then, our status is the only thing that even makes it a remote possibility), but it certainly sems like an avenue that exists.
 
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Let me put it this way: There's a big difference between a project to "map all of Great Britain" and a project to "map London, Manchester, Essex, Edinburgh, Wales and the Lake District".

Mapping all of Great Britain is a bigger job, but it's a single job. The other option is just an arbitrary list that feels like someone dumped out the dregs of their to-do list that they couldn't be bothered with and they're hoping you'll take it off them.

Yes, true, but why the hell do we want to spend a bloody Gread Deed in a College that will do something we could do it by ourselves with not that many AP?

I understand the logic there, and I've argued for somewhat similar myself, but it's been explicitly confirmed that if we want the College to be as good at research as it can be, it should be pure research focus.

I think I also have heavily underestimated the Library's capability to properly keep magical texts without College management.

Yeah, it would be better at Research by focusing on Research-only in the short term. In the long term however a better connection with the library would allow for a better research. And the library itself would also be far more useful to us having a magical section run by wizards than one run by dwarfs. It's win-win, the problem is just that we have to wait a bit before we get the full benefits but the full benefits would still be better than the other option.

You know that every Sigmarite of prominence in the Cult, from Renier on up, is pointing at Dawongr Weber and going "See? The faithul of Sigmar are delivering on their commitment to Aid Dwarf-Folk in spades, look what this paragon of Sigmarism is doing for them" while thinking we're covering their Dwarfy Dues handily and they don't need to lift a finger.

You joke but I'm fully convinced that the Sigmarites think we are great example to follow and a paragon of Sigmarism. :grin:
 
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"Putting extreme Ranaldite lawyer glasses on"

Now, technically speaking, if I am reading Article 5 correctly, and I may actually not be?

The colleges can bestow rights into any initiates, they do not technically have to be capable of wielding arcane magic, just to be legally part of their organization respective to their magic researching hat.

Now, this lawyering actullt seems completely useless, as it, at best, allows them to hire some nonmagical researchers, as no priest would desire the divided loyalty, plus, it may well be that some will disagree with that proposition anyway on the grounds that it is too legalistic and obviously not what the articles intended, that initiates means magic users, that priests cannot be initiated into colleges etc. etc. So in practice, that loophole has been completely useless until now, because even if that reading is possible, it is also politically unfeasible to make.

But in the off chance we can get Sigmarites to make that precedent in some way, maybe by leaning into our dwarven contacts, wellllll... no one will actually disagree that yes, priests can be appointed magisters and study magic if the colleges and the priest agree on such an appointment, as the colleges have the right to grant that right. The priests wont disagree because the greatest opponents of the colleges gave their stamp, and even if worst comes to worst Sigmarites still have 3 votes in the elector meeting, and the colleges won't disagree because it gives them more legitimacy and authority, and anyway, they are in full control in what permissions they grant to initiates according to article 5.

Now, of course, the pie in the sky here is getting the Sigmarites to back that horse, which even with our status as Dawi will be hellishly hard, and not to even be attempted before diplo 20 at the very least (even then, our status is the only thing that even makes it a remote possibility), but it certainly sems like an avenue that exists.

There is no chance whatsoever of the Grey College going along with Mathilde kicking away at the foundations of the Colleges' legal right to exist by playing silly buggers with the word 'initiates', and they bare minimum would exile her if she tried it without permission.
 
I have found myself recovering from sickness during this vote and have ended up falling over 50 pages behind on the plan discussions. If someone has the time and inclination I would appreciate a quick rundown on the major plans and their reasonings.
 
There is no chance whatsoever of the Grey College going along with Mathilde kicking away at the foundations of the Colleges' legal right to exist by playing silly buggers with the word 'initiates', and they bare minimum would exile her if she tried it without permission.

Eh, fair, although I do not think it is a silly bugger nor that it knocks their legal rights, espcially if Sigmarites can agree to that reading, although I guess people in universe have different opinions and I wont argue with the QM about in universe perception.
 
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Yes, true, but why the hell do we want to spend a bloody Gread Deed in a College that will do something we could do it by ourselves with not that many AP?
I think you vastly underestimate the scope of reality if you're looking at the brief of "combine all eight sorts of magic users and divine miracle-workers" and getting "eh, we could knock that out in a few AP"
 
Eh, fair, although I do not think it is a silly bugger nor that it knocks their legal rights, if Sigmarites can agree to that reading, although I guess people in universe have different opinions and I wont argue with the QM about in universe perception.

Legalism isn't a thing yet. Everybody knows exactly what Magnus meant by the word 'initiates'. The Colleges are not going to do anything that could erode the perceived legitimacy of the Articles, not while the Sieges of the Colleges is still within living memory.
 
...I'm not sure whether to feel sorry for them, or horrifically amused if that is the case. Those poor bastards have no idea.

"That's weird, every time I pray to Sigmar lately he keeps shouting back "DO MORE FOR THE DAWI." Isn't Dawongr Weber already doing plenty?"


[X] Plan: Cleaned Up College of Collaboration

[X] Plan: Two College Branches Light On Peripherals
[X] Plan: Two College Branches Light On Peripherals Plus Gyro

[X] Plan: Research, References, and A Sweet Ride
 
Legalism isn't a thing yet. Everybody knows exactly what Magnus meant by the word 'initiates'. The Colleges are not going to do anything that could erode the perceived legitimacy of the Articles, not while the Sieges of the Colleges is still within living memory.

I guess, its just that the articles seem to me to be intentionally worded so that they give the colleges more rights than they initially appear to in general, is all, its not so much about legalism as it is about the general ways the entire legal body of these articles is constructed to be full of doublespeak that benefits the colleges. (with the exception of 15, that one is crystal clear).

Again, won't disagree with the ruling, nor do I seek further replies if this discussion is onerous, just outlining my thought process.
 
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Yeah, it would be better at Research by focusing on Research-only in the short term. In the long term however a better connection with the library would allow for a better research.
No. You are wrong by direct WoQM.
If there is an argument that a branch that researches and libraries is a good option for people that only want a branch that researches, that argument is wrong.
That's about as straightforward as it can possibly be. I agree that splitting between research and library makes for a better library. But it doesn't make for better research. Boney has restated this in half a dozen different ways.
I have found myself recovering from sickness during this vote and have ended up falling over 50 pages behind on the plan discussions. If someone has the time and inclination I would appreciate a quick rundown on the major plans and their reasonings.
Here is my rundown:
  • Plan: Research, References, and A Sweet Ride and Plan Redshirt v4 with Gyro, the #1 and #2 plans are all-but-identical. Both of these plans found a branch, found a Great Library, and buy a gyrocarriage for getting wizards and gear between K8P and Laurelorn. The distinction is whether the branch would be purely research based or split between research and library based.
  • In the last few hours, a flurry of discussion has produced the compromise plan Plan: Cleaned Up College of Collaboration, which founds a research branch, founds a Great Library, and buys a gyrocarriage as with the other two. What makes this special is that the mission statements of the branch college and of the Great Library are focused on multilateral and multiracial efforts in order to build up K8P as a place where multiple perspectives can meet and gain from dialogue. The planmakers of the two leading plans (myself and Redshirt Army) have both dropped their own plans and supported this instead. It's currently in like fifth place, so it needs a lot of new votes (and people changing their old votes) to take the top spot.
  • There are other plans too, but I would be disingenuous if I talked about them because I really want you (and everyone) to vote for Plan: Cleaned Up College of Collaboration. If someone wants to pitch one of the other plans, they can, but I don't think it would be right for me to try.
 
That's about as straightforward as it can possibly be. I agree that splitting between research and library makes for a better library. But it doesn't make for better research. Boney has restated this in half a dozen different ways.

And yet everyone wants the Library to work together with the Research team and the best way to do that is getting the two to be together from the start. Also, as I said, Research would be better in the long term, in the short it is definitely is better to just do mono-research focus.

I'm not gonna argue against word of QM, that would be ridiculous, but I want to make the most of the Research and of the Library and I think that sacrificially a tiny bit of the research to make this happen would be the better idea.

Also; running one single big institution is, I think, easier than running two.
 
Alright Mr Pickle. I can dig adding multiracial and multidisciplinary cooperation as a founding tenent of the charter. Hell I know for a fact that my college had shit interdepartment communication, much less cooperation. I'm down for this. It's also research focused for the Branch College, which is good. Does the lack of a enumerated focus hurt the plan though @picklepikkl ?

[X] Plan: Cleaned Up College of Collaboration
 
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And yet everyone wants the Library to work together with the Research team and the best way to do that is getting the two to be together from the start. Also, as I said, Research would be better in the long term, in the short it is definitely is better to just do mono-research focus.
Long term as in after Matty dies and this quest is dead, and there's a blurb about the Branch College in the epilogue?

I don't get what you're trying to say here. You're literally ignoring his point and quote and restating the very thing you started with lol.
 
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