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You're still voting, it's just that the tally is now counting your post here instead of your post here.

I am sorry for your confusion and I definitely find "aaaaahhh I am epistemically paralyzed" extremely relatable; if there's anything you want clarity on that I might be able to help with, feel free to tag me in a post or just PM me.
Thanks.

It's just all the spinning around. I got convinced one way and vote, catch up with the thread and get convinced the other way. When I next catch up, there's another vote. At which point i just decided to sit this one out. It's spinning too fast :V
 
Are you willing to give us a short and general opinion on how you see the narrative consequences of each major charter proposal?
Not as in tell us what will actually happen. Just as in, how would the charter be judged by a) generic magister bureaucrat having to put his stamp of approval on it and b) generic Journeyman looking for something to do and reading through a brochure of College Branches.

No, I'm not going to give WoG perspectives on hypothetical charters. It is intended that the thread has to make decisions with imperfect information.

I don't think that's anyone's greatest fear. It's more along the lines of spending a precious resource on something that doesn't provide what they hoped for.

This is something like the third or fourth time recently you've responded to me quelling a specific voiced concern and saying 'I don't think anyone actually thinks that'. I don't know why you're doing it but I'd like you to stop.
 
Reminder to the thread in general that the given danger zone for charter broadness was "Research (All), Education (All), Library (All), Outpost (All)". More specific is more good but if you're hashing out a subset of one of the four possibilities then you're not going to be the next Hochland College of Sorcery.

[X] Plan: Plan Simple Research
-[X] Branch College
--[X] Headquarters: Karag Nar
--[X] Charter: Research
--[X] Colleges (all)
-[X] Karak Eight Peaks: To the degree it safely and sustainably can, let K8P gather, preserve, and disseminate knowledge to all goodly folk. Let the tool of this boon be a library and all the books that might be gathered to it, watched over by those of any race who would swear and be accepted as librarians.
-[X] Karak Kadrin Engineers Guild: A gyrocarriage

Credit to @ReImagined for Plan Template.

[X] Plan: Cleaned Up College of Collaboration
Well, I can't very well not approval vote that now, can I?

[X] Plan: Plan Simple Research
[X] Plan Redshirt v4 with Gyro

Still undecided on other plans atm.
 
It is intended that the thread has to make decisions with imperfect information.
I meant in a way that retains the information as imperfect, but puts it more in line of the information that an in-world character that is actually in a position of founding a Branch for the College they have belonged to their whole life would have.

Or to articulate it from a different angle, some insight of how you would interpret it before you apply any rolls or on the ground narrative complications or anything like that. Pretty much just bridging the gap of understanding between us and you, not prophesizing the consequences.
 
I meant in a way that retains the information as imperfect, but puts it more in line of the information that an in-world character that is actually in a position of founding a Branch for the College they have belonged to their whole life would have.

Or to articulate it from a different angle, some insight of how you would interpret it before you apply any rolls or on the ground narrative complications or anything like that. Pretty much just bridging the gap of understanding between us and you, not prophesizing the consequences.

I would interpret it in the way the thread meant it. If I cannot reach an understanding of that by just reading the discussion, I ask questions or point out ambiguities during the voting process.
 
Thanks.

It's just all the spinning around. I got convinced one way and vote, catch up with the thread and get convinced the other way. When I next catch up, there's another vote. At which point i just decided to sit this one out. It's spinning too fast :V
Mood, friend.
I would interpret it in the way the thread meant it. If I cannot reach an understanding of that by just reading the discussion, I ask questions or point out ambiguities during the voting process.
That is an excellent thing to know. Suggestion: add this to the WoQMs for FAQs informational threadmark, under something like "Interpretation of Write-in Votes"?
 
looking into Araybian apparition binding
To be pedantic, AFAIK the Colleges' official understanding of what the Arabyans do with djinn is "we don't understand what the fuck the Arabyans are doing with djinn, but they claim it's not daemonology...?" The concept of "non-daemon aethyric entity" is most closely matched by "apparition" out of what the Colleges do know about, but the djinn don't appear to match any known apparitions and there's no other precedent for the concept of "regionally-specific apparitions." It's also unknown if they match observed behavior for known apparitions when unbound, e.g. pursuing practitioners of certain specific Winds if they catch their scent in the Aethyr.

Anyway, on to vote-relevant stuff.

[X] Plan: Plan Simple Research

Honestly, this is looking incredibly good to me. It's 1/4 of the charter of the Hochland College so we're well shy of the example Danger Zone for charter broadness, and it sidesteps all of the nit-picking over "what kind of research EXACTLY does this charter cover?" A KISS charter sounds fantastic right about now.

Because I'm stubborn, I'm also going to make a couple new versions of my own plan inspired by this and some other later arguments, even though last I checked I was literally the only person voting for my original plan. :V

[X] Plan Simple Elven Research and a Gyro
-[X] Branch College
--[X] Headquarters: Tor Lithanel
--[X] Charter: Research (All)
--[X] Colleges (all)
-[X] Karak Kadrin Engineers Guild: A gyrocarriage.
-[X] Karak Eight Peaks: To the degree it safely and sustainably can, let K8P gather, preserve, and disseminate knowledge to all goodly folk. Let the tool of this boon be a library and all the books that might be gathered to it, watched over by those of any race who would swear and be accepted as librarians.

I still very much want a branch in Tor Lithanel, partly because I just, like, want something NEW to read about and we've read a whole lot about Karag Nar already. And I enjoyed it! But I'm ready for something different. It also just feels like more of a unique and new opportunity in general, and I'd rather pursue that aggressively than hang back out of wariness. Which honestly feels like a more IC attitude for Mathilde? Though "yeah but Mathilde loves dwarves" is a valid IC take too, to be fair.

[X] Plan Simple Elven Research, a Dwarf College, and a Gyro
-[X] Branch College
--[X] Headquarters: Tor Lithanel
--[X] Charter: Research (All)
--[X] Colleges (all)
-[X] Branch College
--[X] Headquarters: Karag Nar
--[X] Charter: Library (in conjunction with the Great Library of Karak Eight Peaks, focusing on the magical section of the Great Library), Education (teaching wizards how to work with the Dawi before they actually work with the Dawi, long term goal of improving cooperation and coordination between the Colleges and the Dawi), and Research (combining/studying College magic and dwarven artifice and runesmithing)
--[X] Colleges (all)
-[X] Karak Kadrin Engineers Guild: A gyrocarriage.
-[X] Karak Eight Peaks: To the degree it safely and sustainably can, let K8P gather, preserve, and disseminate knowledge to all goodly folk. Let the tool of this boon be a library and all the books that might be gathered to it, watched over by those of any race who would swear and be accepted as librarians.

Same as above, and a second Great Deed on creating a Dwarfy College of Dwarf Stuff with Dwarves in Karag Nar. It does have three foci, but they're all fairly specific subsets of those foci and they should all more-or-less be compatible with each other in terms of theme and focus. So I don't think that's too broad.
 
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Single wind interactions with runes would surely be covered under enchanting and artifice if it were to come up.

Maybe? Kinda? Only because runes are artifacing and therefor anything that interacts with them would also maybe be artifacing? IDK, seems like a pretty weak connection if the intent was to research use of runes in conjunction with battlefield spells- especially if no rune creation was involved, just use of existing runes.

It's the main Imperial institution working on Waystones. It has multiple sources of funding. It has close contact to Dwarves. It has easier and cheaper prices for any reagents imported from the east. It is lead by Lady Magister Mathilde Weber, one of the fastest rising stars of the Colleges. It has a direct line to both Laurelorn Elves and Runesmiths, even if getting one go actually work with you is still not easy, it's easier to do from there than from Altdorf or Hochland. It is not in the Empire, but it's also not in some lawless region or completely outside of Imperial jurisdiction. It has many non-Humans and foreign cultures, but there's still enough Humans to not feel out of place. Dwarves are rumored to pay really well, but usually don't really hire Wizards. K8P is different in that they do hire Wizards and have had eight on their payroll in the last decade of which none were fired.

But the branch college doens't add anything to this. It's just a description of what K8P is, with the waystone project being assumed to be a part of the branch college and not a separate thing.

We could vote to not spend any of the great deeds and this list wouldn't change.

What do you mean with separate from the institute? My assumption was that at least one institute we make will also be used as the umbrella organization for the Imperial members of the Waystone Project.

The headquarters for the project was voted to be in Laurelorn. A research center in K8P is most of a continent away. It's worth doing if it brings in dwarves, but why would the elves bother if it doesn't? They want Mathilde and the runesmiths, not a metallurgy/ecological mass tacked on basically as patronage that they don't get any benefit out of.
 
I would interpret it in the way the thread meant it. If I cannot reach an understanding of that by just reading the discussion, I ask questions or point out ambiguities during the voting process.
I'm asking because people in the thread itself seems to be interpreting stuff wildly differently, but the only thing that ultimately matters is how you understand it. So it might move the discussion away from what each charter "actually" means and towards actual preferences.
 
Honestly, this is looking incredibly good to me. It's 1/4 of the charter of the Hochland College so we're well shy of the example Danger Zone for charter broadness, and it sidesteps all of the nit-picking over "what kind of research EXACTLY does this charter cover?" A KISS charter sounds fantastic right about now.
I think it sounds fantastic right about now because folks are sick of this argument, but I'm not supporting Simple Research as a compromise candidate for the simple (heh) reason that if we've got the opportunity to inject some high-mindedness into our branch at only minimal cost to our breadth of application, we should take it. Promoting interspecies and interdisciplinary collaboration is a worthwhile narrative goal to have enshrined in our charter over the long term, after this vote's bitterness is just a memory, and I don't think it's worth sacrificing.
 
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That is an excellent thing to know. Suggestion: add this to the WoQMs for FAQs informational threadmark, under something like "Interpretation of Write-in Votes"?

I'd rather not enshrine it, because that's a path to people blithely saying 'Boney will know what we mean' when they don't know what they mean. I still want people to put thought into the way they word things and discuss the matter if there's ambiguity, I just don't want people to do so as if it's a wish from a particularly bloody-minded genie.

I'm asking because people in the thread itself seems to be interpreting stuff wildly differently, but the only thing that ultimately matters is how you understand it. So it might move the discussion away from what each charter "actually" means and towards actual preferences.

That process of discussion is how I understand it and how the thread reaches a consensus. I've got no desire to even attempt to supersede it.
 
But the branch college doens't add anything to this. It's just a description of what K8P is, with the waystone project being assumed to be a part of the branch college and not a separate thing.

We could vote to not spend any of the great deeds and this list wouldn't change.
Well, we need to spend the Great Deed for there to actually be an official thing with attached salaries for others to join. But yes, my point is that as long as the charter covers Waystones in any way whatsoever and isn't outright scaring people away then we will get Wizards interested in joining. And that thus any arguments along the lines of "this isn't interesting enough to entice Wizards away from cozy Altdorf" shouldn't sway anyone one way or the other.
The headquarters for the project was voted to be in Laurelorn. A research center in K8P is most of a continent away. It's worth doing if it brings in dwarves, but why would the elves bother if it doesn't? They want Mathilde and the runesmiths, not a metallurgy/ecological mass tacked on basically as patronage that they don't get any benefit out of.
A Research Institute with multiple departments can send members of one of its departments abroad to collaborate with a project. That some of the other departments don't even have heads yet isn't all that relevant. One thing that we shouldn't forget is that in the end the Branch College, charter and everything is a bureaucratic description of an institution surrounding an actual collection of Wizards. It does matter, but especially as a Grey LM, we shouldn't lose sight of the fact that nothing in there includes physical limitations to anyone's freedom of movement or magical ability.
 
I think it sounds fantastic right about now because folks are sick of this argument, but I'm not supporting Simple Research as a compromise candidate for the simple (heh) reason that if we've got the opportunity to inject some high-mindedness into our branch at only minimal cost to our breadth of application, we should take it. Promoting interspecies and interdisciplinary collaboration is a worthwhile narrative goal to have enshrined in our charter over the long term, after this vote's bitterness is just a memory, and I don't think it's worth sacrificing.

Yeah. Frankly, increasing ties between the colleges, and between the dwarves and the colleges, is something that the setting as a whole could desperately use.
 
CuCoC seems well put together, but I´m not entirely sold on the specialisation.

Can someone try to sell me on "cooperation"? Because to me it seems like trying to steal guild secrets.

Edit:
Yeah. Frankly, increasing ties between the colleges, and between the dwarves and the colleges, is something that the setting as a whole could desperately use.

So Redshirt posted a killer argument while I had this tabbed.

[X] Plan: Cleaned Up College of Collaboration
 
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That process of discussion is how I understand it and how the thread reaches a consensus. I've got no desire to even attempt to supersede it.
So if the thread argues in circles and the opposition claims that a write-in will have X bad consequences because it means Y while the people actually voting for it say something along the lines of how it doesn't actually mean Y and it should actually be read as meaning Z, do you then focus more on the opinion of those who wrote and voted for a plan or how does it work?
 
So if the thread argues in circles and the opposition claims that a write-in will have X bad consequences because it means Y while the people actually voting for it say something along the lines of how it doesn't actually mean Y and it should actually be read as meaning Z, do you then focus more on the opinion of those who wrote and voted for a plan or how does it work?

You don't need that information.
 
CuCoC seems well put together, but I´m not entirely sold on the specialisation.

Can someone try to sell me on "cooperation"? Because to me it seems like trying to steal guild secrets.

Edit:


So Redshirt posted a killer argument while I had this tabbed.
Glad to hear it. But to answer the original already addressed question(possibly redundantly), it's at least partially about giving an option for wizards otherwise beating their heads against the wall like Johann with the ratling gun an option to come at things with fresh perspectives instead of having to give up their shiny, and without the perception of going to another college in Altdorf hat in hand.
 
When a member of the engineering guild uses metal smelted by a mettallurgist from ore acquired by a miner, did secrets get stolen?
Dunno, did a gold wizard get into it at any point? :V
I personally would not expect any secrets to be stolen.
Largely because Mathilde will make it very clear about what she thinks about it, and what she will probably do about that.
But i would expect dwarves to be very nervous about it one Mathilde is no longer involved.
 
Dunno, did a gold wizard get into it at any point? :V
I personally would not expect any secrets to be stolen.
Largely because Mathilde will make it very clear about what she thinks about it, and what she will probably do about that.
But i would expect dwarves to be very nervous about it one Mathilde is no longer involved.
Dwarves don't know about that ability by Gold Wizards and if they ever do learn about it the Empire loses a trading partner for anything but really expensive raw materials.
 
Dwarves don't know about that ability by Gold Wizards and if they ever do learn about it the Empire loses a trading partner for anything but really expensive raw materials.
No, they don't, which is why it is not a concern for the dwarves (and trade remains possible).
:V generally denotes a non serious answer.

Rest is more serious though, stealing secrets is not going to be an issue, probably.
Colleges know how important Karaz Ankor is, and anyone stupid enough to endanger relations with it is going to not have a long life expectancy.

edit-
Context? My lore is weak.
Gold wizards have a spell that lets them spy on crafting process of things.
Dwarves don't know about it.
And if they ever learn, we can probably kiss goodbye on any dwarven made goods being traded with the empire, at least.
 
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