- Location
- Finland
Also multiwind studies.
Other than tongs (or even with), there is very little effective means to do multiwind studies without having wizards from different colleges.
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Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
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- Tags
- warhammer warhammer fantasy fantasy be gay do crimes (gay) female protagonist pansexual protagonist ck2 quest divided loyalties mountain vietnam ranald is real this is a dwarf quest (dwarfs) this is maybe an elf quest this is not a vampire quest this is not an empire quest try it and find out open voting
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
Other than tongs (or even with), there is very little effective means to do multiwind studies without having wizards from different colleges.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
And one can just as easily assume that the college of collaboration means they are collaborating *on things*, but no, instead it's getting read as if those things we would be working together on are somehow outside the scope of the branch.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Yeah, I think the concerns about the college of collaboration plan are silly. That said, if people want to come up with questions of fact, rather than value judgments, to ask for clarification when Boney is back online, that would probably be more productive than the current way things are going.
I will approval vote the sweet library plan, though.
[X] Plan: Cleaned Up College of Collaboration
[X] Plan: Research, References, and A Sweet Library
I will approval vote the sweet library plan, though.
[X] Plan: Cleaned Up College of Collaboration
[X] Plan: Research, References, and A Sweet Library
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
Unless of course it's had productive results, at which point the runesmiths who've been involved (including Kragg) will continue to be interested in getting more productive results.
Alternatively we could go with the charter that works entirely on the basis of being "do what Mathilde and her mates are doing" - and hope that that somehow welds itself into a consistent structure when Mathilde stops poking it.
To me that's having six independent researchers who happen to be in K8P. Not six fields of research.
What will make the K8P branch college attractive to a person interested in metallurgy when they'll be the only metallurgist mage? (Bearing in mind that they'll be about as likely to get a dwarven metallurgist to give them training in under a decade as to get a runesmith to work with them.)
What is the selling point that gets them to come to K8P?
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Are you really interpreting the collaboration vote as any project that involves more than 1 wizard? Because that's the way you don't get anyone to come to the college.
Or well you do. They send the people they don't want on Altdorf.
- Location
- Czech Republic
So far I have seen people complaining that RRS has too wide charter and that CCC is better because it is more focused and also that CCC is better because we can do anything with it as a charter.
At this point, I am just confused about what collaboration is supposed to mean.
Yes, but there are a lot of things we would like to get this college to do that do not in any way need collaboration and I would rather not have one more AP lock in on a concept so vague as 'collaboration'. The fact of the matter is that I have no idea what the GM would consider sufficiently 'collaborative' but I can make a decent guess on what he would consider artifacts and natural history so I'm voting for the latter.
- Location
- Netherlands
- Pronouns
- She/Her
Some thoughts on the College of Collaboration.
It is true that there is a less focused body of knowledge/expertise than there would be for the RSRR charter. However, that doesn't mean there isn't one. The body of knowledge here is a broader one, one of various types of magic users and/or priests, particularly focusing on the people you expect to be working with. A pooled body of knowledge. College wizards getting a better understanding of how their other-wind colleages do their thing. The main problem here is that the varying factions here have a lot of secrets they're not willing to share, which makes the pool of shared knowledge smaller, but the secrets are hardly all-encompassing. I do think there's still a fairly sizeable amount of knowledge that can be shared.
This doesn't have to mean your understanding of your own Wind has to suffer, rather, I think that in some ways understanding other disciplines can help further your own. I feel like my understanding of game design helps me be a better writer and have a better grasp of people and the systems they live in, for example. Or, an example from Avatar The Last Airbender: Uncle Iroh, a firebender, developed his lightning redirection.
Also, in general, there's no reason you have to stop studying your own Wind to work here. Much to the contrary, the more understanding you have of your own Wind, the more you can contribute.
Finally, all that aside, a very key skill that this Branch College would revolve around, a shared topic of expertise, is... well, collaboration. The thing about interdisciplinary collaboration such as this is that it requires a certain kind of open-mindedness, ability to respect people with dramatically different perspectives than you, and general good etiquette. Also, learning how to explain your viewpoints to people with little understanding of your field.
This mindset is actually a pretty damn difficult one to find, so creating a branch college that attracts people of that mindset and cultivates that mindset certainly has merit, I think.
It is true that there is a less focused body of knowledge/expertise than there would be for the RSRR charter. However, that doesn't mean there isn't one. The body of knowledge here is a broader one, one of various types of magic users and/or priests, particularly focusing on the people you expect to be working with. A pooled body of knowledge. College wizards getting a better understanding of how their other-wind colleages do their thing. The main problem here is that the varying factions here have a lot of secrets they're not willing to share, which makes the pool of shared knowledge smaller, but the secrets are hardly all-encompassing. I do think there's still a fairly sizeable amount of knowledge that can be shared.
This doesn't have to mean your understanding of your own Wind has to suffer, rather, I think that in some ways understanding other disciplines can help further your own. I feel like my understanding of game design helps me be a better writer and have a better grasp of people and the systems they live in, for example. Or, an example from Avatar The Last Airbender: Uncle Iroh, a firebender, developed his lightning redirection.
Also, in general, there's no reason you have to stop studying your own Wind to work here. Much to the contrary, the more understanding you have of your own Wind, the more you can contribute.
Finally, all that aside, a very key skill that this Branch College would revolve around, a shared topic of expertise, is... well, collaboration. The thing about interdisciplinary collaboration such as this is that it requires a certain kind of open-mindedness, ability to respect people with dramatically different perspectives than you, and general good etiquette. Also, learning how to explain your viewpoints to people with little understanding of your field.
This mindset is actually a pretty damn difficult one to find, so creating a branch college that attracts people of that mindset and cultivates that mindset certainly has merit, I think.
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
This is a point I'd definitely like to check interpretation on:
@BoneyM - if "Charter: Research (multi-wind studies (including waystones), geological, metallurgical, and ecological studies, enchanting and artifice)" is in the winning vote, will that be identical to "Charter: Research (multi-wind studies, natural philosophy and artifacts)" or will it be treated as different?
- Location
- Finland
I think having issues with a super broad charter that basicly reads "collaborate", with no actual focus to collaborate on is perfectly reasonable.
Even more so having charter talk of divine casters or runesmiths who are not known for intradisciplinary research projects.
And no, our doom tower is not a research project in any meaningful sense in my opinion.
And i doubt Boney is going to give us much in the way of clarification, the charter has been accepted as valid, which is not the same as useful or effective.
Funding.
Also potentially access to any other researcher an the eventual library.
But mainly funding.
Anything you want it to at any given time.
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
It's very much the sort of thing I would expect to come out of a research project personally: It's an invention.
In the time period we're playing in invention/innovation/research are not considered separate disciplines. Hell, in the modern day they're only separate disciplines some of the time, in things like pharmacology they're still one and the same.
Collaboration has a single means focus. It can be applied to any ends.
RRS has a multi-pronged ends focus. It can be pursued through any means.
They're both massively broad on the unspecified side of things.
There're a huge set of things that could be done through inter/extra-college collaboration in the RRS ends, so there's a lot of overlap, but they're looking at things from opposite angles.
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- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
More than one college. Or wind. Yes. This is something that is not on offer in Altdorf, is way more specialized than the 'second colleges' in Hochland, and covers everything we want to do.
Working with people who do magic that aren't in your college. On whatever topic-the point is that if you need to reach outside your college for expertise, come here to find it and people willing to work with you.
No there aren't. Literally everything we want to do falls under this, by virtue of us wanting to do it with a wizard using a different wind.
AV? Yes- dwarves and other wizards.
Seviriscope? Yes- wizard tool to help dwarves.
Arm? Yes- involve the golds.
Seed? Yes- involve the jade.
Tongs? Yes- we need someone else to supply the other wind.
Windherder? Yes, obviously.
Waystones? Yes. Just as obvious.
Etc.
The thing I like about this is that it covers whatever we want to use it for, as long as we use it in a way that isn't just grey college.
Clear purpose AND flexible enough not to get us locked in and needing to change a charter after we solve the stuff we want to and are looking at new things.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
So the other thing is that even if we can't use our wizard half-actions to study the artifacts we've got, I, uh, don't give a shit? And you shouldn't either.
We've has acces to wizard half-actions letting us study magical doohickeys for years. The most interesting things we've gotten out of that have been the ratling gun paper and I guess the analyses our golden boys did on the We. But the actual big deal research, the stuff that's potentially revolutionary in understanding magic, is not that and is in fact stuff we've been locked out of using half-actions on, like AV, and which consequently has been very hard to find AP for. So shifting our half-actions from "you can poke one at a time at random bits and bobs you find lying around unguarded on enemy corpses with your sword sticking of them" to "you can climb tech trees that upend Teclisean magic" (which is how Boney has talked about Windherder in the past) seems like a huge win even if the new research statement doesn't let us do literally everything.
Plus, like, I've seen nobody dispute that the new research statement applies to Waystones, which means that, absolute worst-case scenario, we can use half-actions on our job and personals on random shit we want to poke at. So we lose nothing, we only shift focus, and I think that for the average case we gain quite a bit.
We've has acces to wizard half-actions letting us study magical doohickeys for years. The most interesting things we've gotten out of that have been the ratling gun paper and I guess the analyses our golden boys did on the We. But the actual big deal research, the stuff that's potentially revolutionary in understanding magic, is not that and is in fact stuff we've been locked out of using half-actions on, like AV, and which consequently has been very hard to find AP for. So shifting our half-actions from "you can poke one at a time at random bits and bobs you find lying around unguarded on enemy corpses with your sword sticking of them" to "you can climb tech trees that upend Teclisean magic" (which is how Boney has talked about Windherder in the past) seems like a huge win even if the new research statement doesn't let us do literally everything.
Plus, like, I've seen nobody dispute that the new research statement applies to Waystones, which means that, absolute worst-case scenario, we can use half-actions on our job and personals on random shit we want to poke at. So we lose nothing, we only shift focus, and I think that for the average case we gain quite a bit.
- Location
- Finland
I super disagree on the clear purpose bit, unless the purpose is "let me do whatever i want".
That charter is so broad that i would not be surprised if it got hit with near Hochland college levels of recruitment penalty.
I am less sanguine about thus:
- AV: Yes that looks like it could fit
- Seviroscope: Nope, it is made by Mathy alone for dwarfs. Just because you make a sword for an EC does not mean you collaborated with him in the making of the sword
- Arm: Nope, you just need golds
- Seed: Nope, you just need jades
- Tongs: Hell no, the very idea is that you as a Grey can manipulate the other wind yourself
- Waystones: yes
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- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
If Mathy were actually going to make it alone it wouldn't be part of any college, because it'd be a solo AP. But I really doubt she will.
The seviroscope is a tool to enable collaboration, that will almost certainly be made collaboratively. I see no chance of a mage who's joined the Collab college thinking "that doesn't fit the charter I signed up for".
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The Hochland charter is (paraphrasing) "provide a comprehensive education in magic equivalent to the 8 collages".
Ours is either:
"Collaborate on arcane research with other disciplines, including non-collage disciplines"
or
"Research magical phenomenon within the context of natural philosophy and enchanted artefacts"
I don't think we're under the threat of being Hochlanded.
The seviroscope needs to imitate Mathy's windsight, not just any windsight. I do not see how any other wizard wold be able to help us make something so intimately linked to her paradigm of magic. I think solo AP it will have to be.
- Location
- Spain
Sorry I only want the college as a tool to clean research backlog and tackle new reserach opportunities at a reduced AP cost.
The whole "collaboration between colleges" dont really appeal to me .
[X] Plan: Research, References, and A Sweet Ride
[X] Plan: Research, References, and A Sweet Library
The whole "collaboration between colleges" dont really appeal to me .
[X] Plan: Research, References, and A Sweet Ride
[X] Plan: Research, References, and A Sweet Library
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- Location
- Finland
I said near, but a "anything i want, with a minor caveat" is super broad to me.
I doubt we'll end up a dumping grounds atleast.
I see a lot of people arguing about AP/I don't care about AP (fair enough)
I have not seen a good argument that the collaborative college will survive after mathy is gone and takes her belt/windherder with her.
the artefacts and natural magic college can be lead by any of the skilled enchanters of the colleges, tho maybe in slightly different directions; or hell, even Max with his weird Magic smithing can in a pinch.
I have not seen a good argument that the collaborative college will survive after mathy is gone and takes her belt/windherder with her.
the artefacts and natural magic college can be lead by any of the skilled enchanters of the colleges, tho maybe in slightly different directions; or hell, even Max with his weird Magic smithing can in a pinch.
- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Can I convince you, and anyone else who feels this way, to at least approval vote the "and a sweet library" variant? The college portion is identical, but the library part is better because it bakes multilateralism into the charter right away, as opposed to being something Mathilde will need to actively add later on through getting involved with it directly.
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
You know I read people here complaining that the Collaborative College Charter isn't as broad.
But, that's kind of the point.
People spent a lot of time yesterday talking about the split focus inherent in having a charter of both "College" and "Library" but... splitting between "Natural Philosophy and Magical Artifacts" as Boney put it is itself another kind of split focus. One branch is still doing two different kinds of research there.
A narrower research focus won't let us do as many kinds of things, no, but the tradeoff is that it's going to be significantly better at the things it does allow.
But, that's kind of the point.
People spent a lot of time yesterday talking about the split focus inherent in having a charter of both "College" and "Library" but... splitting between "Natural Philosophy and Magical Artifacts" as Boney put it is itself another kind of split focus. One branch is still doing two different kinds of research there.
A narrower research focus won't let us do as many kinds of things, no, but the tradeoff is that it's going to be significantly better at the things it does allow.
But what does it allow though? What actions do you imagine we can do with it, however well that might be?
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
Okay: There are lots of mages who want to and will benefit from working with people who aren't of their college.
They cannot do this in Altdorf. Each college is a mono-wind environment, so they can't collaborate at all closely with users of other winds - there are no runesmiths available, so can't collab with them - and Damsels and Ice Witches are well aware of the tenuousness of their position so they tend not to go there. (Deliberately not mentioned: Any of the other magical traditions that could turn up and offer to work with folks in K8P outside the college's official strictures...)
So we'll provide a place that they can do such collaboration work. They'll come out to K8P to do the collab. When Mathilde leaves or dies, they'll keep doing so. Runesmiths will keep being available, because it produces results. If someone wants to do intercollegiate collab going to K8P will be a guaranteed way for them to find someone who shares that desire, and if they want to work with runesmiths they'll stand a good chance.
The loss of Mathilde's superior windherding won't matter because it's not the windherder college, and the only way it could become a windherder college is if other people learnt to windherd like her.
But without Mathilde it has no purpose for existence. There's zero reason for it to be all the way out in K8P, and people will stop coming.
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