SuperSonicSound
Shadowmancer of the Shadow Cabal
I completely agree with this, the idea is to be able to have flexible research half actions that can be used when ever there space for work or ourselves.
Warhammer Fantasy: Divided Loyalties - an Advisor's Quest
- Thread starter Boney
- Start date
- Fantasy Users' Choice!
Voted best in category in the Users' Choice awards.
I completely agree with this, the idea is to be able to have flexible research half actions that can be used when ever there space for work or ourselves.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
I'm confused. Both focuses can study Waystones. If anything, CoC should be better at it, since it has far less extraneous cruft with geology and ecology or whatever.
Like, I could edit plan Cleaned Up Collaborative College right now to be "Research: Studies involving collaboration between the Colleges of Magic (including waystones), and between the Colleges and divine miracle-workers, with a particular focus on working with Runesmiths.", and I wouldn't see it as changing anything.
- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
Ok. So- after we work through Mathilde's backlog, and assuming that the waystones are, you know, going to be dealt with via the elf-led project specifically dedicated waystones that is separate from this institute, what does the RRSR charter point to?
As far as I can tell, the answer seems to be 'funding and distance from Altdorf', which seems... counterproductive to the overall goal of researching. It's a lesser version of what already exists- and that is the real problem with Hochland. Not that it is too broad- that it tries to do something that is already being done, and is worse at it.
In other words, if you have something ecological (or other focus) to research, why bother going to K8P?
As far as I can tell, the answer seems to be 'funding and distance from Altdorf', which seems... counterproductive to the overall goal of researching. It's a lesser version of what already exists- and that is the real problem with Hochland. Not that it is too broad- that it tries to do something that is already being done, and is worse at it.
In other words, if you have something ecological (or other focus) to research, why bother going to K8P?
- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
That falls under Ecology.
I'd like to remind people that the College Charter is not supposed to be the description of whatever research project they happen to take on, it's a mission statement, detailing the ideals and purposes for which the organisation was founded.
The idea of interdisciplinary cooperation on tricky problems is not standard scientific procedure in this era - when the standard approach is a bunch of eccentrics tinkering with their private collections, cooperation needs to be explicitly spelled out.
The idea of interdisciplinary cooperation on tricky problems is not standard scientific procedure in this era - when the standard approach is a bunch of eccentrics tinkering with their private collections, cooperation needs to be explicitly spelled out.
- Location
- Finland
Can, the collab charter can study absolutely anything it wants as long as it has atleast 2 wizards from separate colleges on it.
The other one actually spells out things it is studying, it is not super specific, but it is far more so than collab one that i think is worse than no specificity at all beyond "research".
edit-
Sure, and if the charter was "research X while promiting collaborateive studies with Y and Z" that would be different.
But charter kinda also ties our hands because if it did not, what would be the point.
If charter reads "research: rocks" and we go and spend all our time staring at goats (that are not even standing on a rock), people will have an issue with it.
Which is why charters provide a broad strokes focus (like enchanting and artifice) that allows for a spectrum of projects to be undertaken with than focus.
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deathofrats0808
Don’t think of it as dying; just as leaving early
- Location
- Earth
Yeah, that'd explain it. Thanks.
- Location
- Outside the Box
- Pronouns
- She/Her
We already have a massive example of Collaboration to entice people to join the branch college: The Eye of Gazul vaporized an Orc WAAAGH. And it's a multi-tower complex with multiple winds as well as the product of Runelord Kragg the Grim and Patriarch Algard working together. It's the very first thing any curious wizard seeing the College of Collaboration charter is going to think of.
- Location
- The Surface Of A Hostile Planet
To whatever degree that's true, the other charter has the same issue, though - it explicitly includes multi-wind studies.
- Pronouns
- He/Him
"How pointless a thing can we technically place under this charter's umbrella" is a pointless metric equally turned on the college of multi-wind studies and geology. If it involves a rock, it qualifies, right? How broad!
Let's instead imagine things somebody actually leading the branch college would use the charter do to.
Keep in mind, the focus isn't just about attracting people, it's about how effectively their time will be used. "Adds more specifics besides something just as broad, but it specifies useless things" is dramatically worse at both.
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- Location
- Finland
No, it allows studies in a fairly broad spectrum, but i would not consider "absolutely anything" to fall under it except through very creative logic.
The other one seems to me allow everything, provided you have 2 or more people on it (from different colleges).
(multi-wind studies (including waystones), geological, metallurgical, and ecological studies, enchanting and artifice)
Is fairly broad, but it is focused, and while the "natural philosophy and artifice" translation could be taken as even broader, i don't think Boney is going to just translate it to that and then penalize us on recruiting.
The wording is fine.
- Location
- Earth
Hm. Does anybody strongly prefer the old Library wording to the newer one? Because if not, then what I'm thinking is that we might as well ditch specifying altogether if that's the only real point of contention.
[] Plan: Plan Template
-[] Branch College
--[] Headquarters: Karag Nar
--[] Charter: Research
--[] Colleges (all)
-[] Karak Eight Peaks: To the degree it safely and sustainably can, let K8P gather, preserve, and disseminate knowledge to all goodly folk. Let the tool of this boon be a library and all the books that might be gathered to it, watched over by those of any race who would swear and be accepted as librarians.
-[] Karak Kadrin Engineers Guild: A gyrocarriage
The Phoenixian
The Glacier Witch
- Location
- My own little world
There's two fundamentally different kinds of purposes at play here in the kinds of charter.
The Natural Philosophy College Charter is saying "This is the project we work on."
The Collaboration College Charter is saying "This is the tool we aim to provide."
In the latter case it's not about "this is what we study" it's about providing a tool for wizards that go "Dang, this project is beyond the scope of my wind. I could really use some [Insert Tradition] insight or help here."
EDIT: Some kinds of projects will inherently require that sort of tool, and some will just happen to find that tool fit for purpose. But the focus, I think is on the tool, rather than the project.
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- Location
- Chicago
- Pronouns
- She/They
So, there appear to be a few unwritten assumptions going into RRSR:
1) The elves will, in fact, hire the branch on to assist with the waystone project.
2) We will be able to make the library multi-species and focused on sharing information through personal involvement, after the charter is approved that does not include these things.
3) Opening a college branch dedicated to the grab-bag of interests the ducklings have will, in fact, pull them into the branch from their current jobs.
4) Future discoveries we want to research will fall into the categories we have set up.
5) Mere proximity to dwarves is enough to ensure longevity.
And the one that is being spoken loudly,
1) Having a list of *what* we are going to research is better than having a mission statement about *how* we are going to research.
Does that look accurate?
1) The elves will, in fact, hire the branch on to assist with the waystone project.
2) We will be able to make the library multi-species and focused on sharing information through personal involvement, after the charter is approved that does not include these things.
3) Opening a college branch dedicated to the grab-bag of interests the ducklings have will, in fact, pull them into the branch from their current jobs.
4) Future discoveries we want to research will fall into the categories we have set up.
5) Mere proximity to dwarves is enough to ensure longevity.
And the one that is being spoken loudly,
1) Having a list of *what* we are going to research is better than having a mission statement about *how* we are going to research.
Does that look accurate?
- Location
- Czech Republic
[X] Plan: Cleaned Up College of Collaboration
I am still very skeptical about how it will function. But it does make more sense narratively.
Will probably change my mind after few pages.
I am still very skeptical about how it will function. But it does make more sense narratively.
Will probably change my mind after few pages.
- Location
- Earth
Could you give a specific example of what RRSR will not allow, that Collaboration does? I'm not really seeing what falls under that if Collaboration is being defended as simply a more narrow subset of RRSR.
- Location
- Finland
1) is all but guaranteed unless i have super misunderstood how much the elves want this project.
2) There is a vote that allows for the library change, people are free to approval vote for it (i have), that said, yes, we can change a lot if we get involved with the library as stated by Boney, not sure how much.
3) I, atleast, do not believe this is the case, they have jobs and research branch is a fulltime job on its own.
4) most things that interest us will, anything that does not, oh well, solo project it is.
5) wat?
So, no, not really so far.
The outspoken one is fairly accurate.
Largely because we can't actually guarantee that cooperation from priests or dwarves (especially priests, Mathilde probably can find a dwarf).
But also because atleast i honestly am not certain there is much desire for intercollegiate cooperation that is being unmet.
I 'm not convinced of the charter as it is formulated, or of the survival of the branch as envisioned by its defenders past Mathildes personal involvement.
- Pronouns
- They/It
[X] Plan: Research, References, and A Sweet Library
[X] Plan: Research, References, and A Sweet Ride
[X] Plan: Research, References, and A Sweet Ride
- Location
- Finland
I'd be happy with just multi wind studies, enchanting and artifice charter myself.
But i don't mind having the rest and might be too late at this point.
edit-
Though i have called out for better metallurgy as the route to advancement for the empire in the past, so i'm hardly in a position to argue for not having it.
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- Location
- Manchester, UK
- Pronouns
- He/They
As I see it the big problem with studying Metallurgy in K8P is that there's two possibilities:
1) You get dwarf help, and can't share what you've learnt outside of your own apprentice-line.
2) You don't get dwarf help, and are thus worse off than you would have been elsewhere, AND if you discover anything the dwarves know they'll suspect you stole it.
I'm going to be away from my keyboard for the weekend so voting will be open until at least 2am GMT on the 25th.
I'd like you to. It's not something I want catching on.
There are two points when it's too late for a vote to swing.
1) When I close the vote.
2) When people convince themselves it's too late and don't even try.
If you restrict your focus to the mechanical effects, then yes, it's hard to make an informed vote. That's why I recommend you don't do that. Focus on what kind of institution you want Mathilde to create, not what kind of bonus you want to what kind of dice.
Mathilde doing research alone and involving a single Gold Wizard only to help her put the results to paper is not a multidisciplinary research project. Even if she has Max hover awkwardly in a corner of the room while she does the actual research. Don't get me wrong, a lot of what Mathilde has researched with Johann and Adela and Panoramia and Esbern and Seija and whatnot would easily count as collaboration, but 'getting Max to write the paper for me' does not do it.
This should not be treated as a complete given. Mathilde received the Dhar insight trait through reading and was able to pass it on through writing. She achieved Windherder through having bonkers Magesight and encountering a bunch of extremely unusual scenarios that pushed her limits and broadened her mind. That could easily turn out to be less communicable. Basically, try it and find out.
geological, metallurgical, and ecological studies - natural philosophy
multi-wind studies (including waystones), enchanting, artifice - magical artefacts, which I will probably refine further to 'magical phenomena'
The only thing this excludes from the original charter is artifice with no magic involved whatsoever, but since Max's intent is to involve Gold Magic in his blacksmithing once he's good enough at it, I don't think that excludes any possibilities anyone was planning to use, especially if you take 'enchanting and artifice' to mean something different to 'enchanting, and artifice'.
I'll convert the wording of whatever wins to something punchier that fits the intent and thread understanding, but that will not change the actual effects.
That is an extremely generous reading. Johann already had good Windsight and of a type particularly suited to what was needed. He's a lot more able now, but still nowhere near the point of completely making up for the loss of his sense of vision.
And in general, from where I'm at at catching up with the thread I'm not a huge fan of the tone with which you choose to communicate to people who disagree with you. I'd appreciate it if you turned more care to that.
I'd like you to. It's not something I want catching on.
There are two points when it's too late for a vote to swing.
1) When I close the vote.
2) When people convince themselves it's too late and don't even try.
If you restrict your focus to the mechanical effects, then yes, it's hard to make an informed vote. That's why I recommend you don't do that. Focus on what kind of institution you want Mathilde to create, not what kind of bonus you want to what kind of dice.
Mathilde doing research alone and involving a single Gold Wizard only to help her put the results to paper is not a multidisciplinary research project. Even if she has Max hover awkwardly in a corner of the room while she does the actual research. Don't get me wrong, a lot of what Mathilde has researched with Johann and Adela and Panoramia and Esbern and Seija and whatnot would easily count as collaboration, but 'getting Max to write the paper for me' does not do it.
This should not be treated as a complete given. Mathilde received the Dhar insight trait through reading and was able to pass it on through writing. She achieved Windherder through having bonkers Magesight and encountering a bunch of extremely unusual scenarios that pushed her limits and broadened her mind. That could easily turn out to be less communicable. Basically, try it and find out.
geological, metallurgical, and ecological studies - natural philosophy
multi-wind studies (including waystones), enchanting, artifice - magical artefacts, which I will probably refine further to 'magical phenomena'
The only thing this excludes from the original charter is artifice with no magic involved whatsoever, but since Max's intent is to involve Gold Magic in his blacksmithing once he's good enough at it, I don't think that excludes any possibilities anyone was planning to use, especially if you take 'enchanting and artifice' to mean something different to 'enchanting, and artifice'.
I'll convert the wording of whatever wins to something punchier that fits the intent and thread understanding, but that will not change the actual effects.
That is an extremely generous reading. Johann already had good Windsight and of a type particularly suited to what was needed. He's a lot more able now, but still nowhere near the point of completely making up for the loss of his sense of vision.
And in general, from where I'm at at catching up with the thread I'm not a huge fan of the tone with which you choose to communicate to people who disagree with you. I'd appreciate it if you turned more care to that.
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- Location
- Finland
Charter: Research (multi-wind studies (including waystones), geological, metallurgical, and ecological studies, enchanting and artifice)
Charter: Research: Studies involving collaboration between the Colleges of Magic, and between the Colleges and divine miracle-workers, with a particular focus on working with Runesmiths.
Something like
Charter: Research (Multi wind studies, enchanting and artifice, with a goal to promote intercollegiate studies and collaborating with Karaz Ankor for the betterment of all)
Sure it does not speak of runemisths specifically, but i'm not comfortable of putting them in the charter due to their insular nature.
Not sure how to add priests while keeping the flow.
Though i am not convinced we could not get dwarf help short of any secrets, or that the research would be worse off than elsewhere.
Probably not better off, but not worse either.
edit-
Charter: Research: Studies involving collaboration between the Colleges of Magic, and between the Colleges and divine miracle-workers, with a particular focus on working with Runesmiths.
Something like
Charter: Research (Multi wind studies, enchanting and artifice, with a goal to promote intercollegiate studies and collaborating with Karaz Ankor for the betterment of all)
Sure it does not speak of runemisths specifically, but i'm not comfortable of putting them in the charter due to their insular nature.
Not sure how to add priests while keeping the flow.
I'm just saying it would be a bit silly for me to try to stop others from studying metallurgy as a principle.
Though i am not convinced we could not get dwarf help short of any secrets, or that the research would be worse off than elsewhere.
Probably not better off, but not worse either.
edit-
Right, should have said that differently, or more probably not at all.
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- Location
- New Brunswick, NJ
- Pronouns
- He/Him/His
Thank you, this helps a lot. If those previous research projects on artifacts count as collaboration, then continuing in that vein through our backlog should be possible.
It does mean that we'd actually have to investigate the stuff together, as opposed to assigning it to someone to go investigate on their own and then report back, but that's fine IMO and means that we can still clear our artifacts as well as the big multi-stage research projects.