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That is not proof of willful lying, just that the story dragons tell their children is dragon-centric which is to be expected really. Willful lying implies intent to deceive.

The person the original response was to (should have included it too, but I found including the whole original conversation for context to be too much) didn't say anything about willful lying, just about it not being true.

An answer to the question "why would he sully himself with a lie?", in such a case, could just as easily be a way for him to not say the truth while also not intentionally lying, due to inflated ego, revisionism, dragocentric perspective etc. , rather than a direct refuting of the assertion that he would not lie, as it's objective is to confirm the original point by offering another perspective of why it is possible even if the reply is technically true rather than to directly clash with the reply to said point by positing the direct oppossite of what said reply claimed.
 
But Old Ones didn't lose to Chaos, they lost to C'tans and Necrons and their war led to the creation of Chaos (Warp was much less turbulent before it).
Actually that depends on what you read, it seems to me that they likely lost to a combination of Necrons, C'tan and the Enslaver plague.
We also don't know how chaos gods (Besides Slaanesh) were active in the 40k universe.
 
The person the original response was to (should have included it too, but I found including the whole original conversation for context to be too much) didn't say anything about willful lying, just about it not being true.

An answer to the question "why would he sully himself with a lie?", in such a case, could just as easily be a way for him to not say the truth while also not intentionally lying, due to inflated ego, revisionism, dragocentric perspective etc. , rather than a direct refuting of the assertion that he would not lie, as it's objective is to confirm the original point by offering another perspective of why it is possible even if the reply is technically true rather than to directly clash with the reply to said point by positing the direct oppossite of what said reply claimed.

The original post was 'I wonder how much of it is true'. My guess is all of it, it's just not the whole truth and far from it. Lying to your children about their history directly is bad parenting, not going into complex sociology and political science while doing it is common sense.
 
On a scale of 1 to 10 how blown is Mathilda's mind?
6-7: its disturbing from a none dragon point of view, and Deathwing is a very old dragon so there is a bit of weight behind what he said.

but there is no evidence behind what he said, a lot of creation myths have different have bias and the comment about dragons helping with the great vortex is sus.

and the 'prophecy' of 'you're all fucked, and we are going to leg it' is as likely as any of the other thousand doomsday prophecies.

even if the thread knows that this one had a lot of weight to it.
 
It's not so much prophecy as the assertion that as time approaches true, the odds of everything rolling virtual natural 1s approaches one. Of course, the opposite is entirely possible, but people do not generally plan for best-case scenarios.
 
The original post was 'I wonder how much of it is true'. My guess is all of it, it's just not the whole truth and far from it. Lying to your children about their history directly is bad parenting, not going into complex sociology and political science while doing it is common sense.

Agreed, but people (and dragons) can very much not say the truth despite meaning to due to psychological factors, including excessive pride , bias, lack of adopting other perspective and incomplete knowledge leading to false conclusions (very much possible in regards to the Old Ones, the gods, and the Warp).

Its a very human paradox, that wanting to tell the truth would not necessarily lead one to tell the truth. Although, I guess in this case it wouldnt be a human paradox, but a dragon one.
 
This is a really interesting quote, and I'm sure that the thread could spend months arguing over it. To me it can be read in two ways: religiously or literally.

Taken religiously it implies that the Ulthuani dragons believe in either an afterlife, that the world will die and be reborn, or perhaps metaphorically that the Polar Gates are not static and will one day alter the magical landscape of Mallus. Thus, binding to the Winds either prevents the Wind Dragons from gaining the afterlife, or literally dying with the world without it being reborn, or as it metaphorically dies.

It can also be taken literally, which is if anything even more interesting. This could mean that sufficiently ancient dragons can fly between worlds, as living starships, rather than living and dying bound to a single world. If a dragon binds themselves to the winds, they gain power and alertness in the short term (in a draconic timescale), but sacrifice their identity and the next part of their life cycle. Notably, the eldest dragons can sleep for many mortal lifetimes without eating, which would be very useful for extended voyages through the void. Indeed, in Age of Sigmar Sigmar is directed to the Nine Realms by a giant dragon that lives in space.

Either way, this seems to imply that the Dragons bound themselves to the Elves to ensure their survival while they sleep, allowing them to live unchanged through a changing world. Notably Elves tend to mythologize their history, so it's entirely possible that the myths of Draugnir meeting and dealing with the Elven gods are not literally true. Perhaps he instead met and bartered with Caledor Dragontamer, helped him or some other great elf forge a blade that turned out far too powerful, only to be slain by a Chaos corrupted Elf during the Daemonic Incursion. Unfortunately it's unlikely for us to get any sort of unbiased source on the matter, and we can't look to canon for the answer.
Can someone pick up the phone? Because guess who called it?
 
Further, dragons can allegedly travel between stars and survive reentry, but are also able to be killed by a bunch of peasants with crossbows. Somehow I doubt the Old Ones ever lost fights to early modern/feudal level societies.

Eh, that sentence only applies to star dragons, not younger ones. Plus, the story strongly implied that dragons became very weak compared to their norm during their stay in a corrupt world, Deathfang understates it (saying just that "a lot of dragons grew gaunt and died"), but I am pretty sure Cython would say that they were crippled and extremely weakened and had to use magic for a decent chance of surviving, thanks to chaos.
 
Eh, that sentence only applies to star dragons, not younger ones. Plus, the story strongly implied that dragons became very weak compared to their norm during their stay in a corrupt world, Deathfang understates it (saying just that "a lot of dragons grew gaunt and died"), but I am pretty sure Cython would say that they were crippled and extremely weakened and had to use magic for a decent chance of surviving, thanks to chaos.

That might just be that there wasn't enough resources in the world before the Old Ones.
 
' Namely, getting Thorgrim to name Belegar as the heir to the High Kingship.'
You could interpret that as a play for the Throne in a consequentialist way, since taking the Throne is generally the intended long-term consequence of being the heir. But there's a degree of separation there that I think is worth preserving.

More generally, I broadly and firmly disagree that an advisor's role should be solely reactive. Bringing things to the King is absolutely a legitimate part of an advisor's role.
Meanwhile, in a Warhammer Fantasy sourcebook in a world slightly tangent to our own...
This is very cool, except that "joined with Rhya" is either a very, very generous interpretation of "was corrupted and disappeared into the earth" or is very insulting to Rhya since it can be taken as insinuating that Rhya is an entity of corruption.
You're underestimating how much of a commitment the Waystone Project is.
To be clear, I'm not imagining it would be a "turn or two" but rather a side project of indefinite duration, that we may or may not be able to retain the Eonir's interest in at that level of commitment. Since it would absolutely suffer from not having our full attention, since attending to it properly would as noted be a job in its own right. So there is an opportunity cost there, which is why I'm only interested in the troubleshooter-at-large role if it's pointing at something larger.
 
This is very cool, except that "joined with Rhya" is either a very, very generous interpretation of "was corrupted and disappeared into the earth" or is very insulting to Rhya since it can be taken as insinuating that Rhya is an entity of corruption.
From the previous section.
"Rhya isn't Isha," Deathfang interrupts around a mouthful of beef.

"What?" Asarnil says, taken aback.

"Rhya isn't Isha," Deathfang repeats. "Draugnir joined with your Gods, but Radixashen joined with Rhya. I know not of Kurnous and Taal, but Rhya and Isha are two different beings."
 
Also... hmmm... now that I think about it...

I generally do not like to imply fantasy and 40k are on the same universe... but I think that actually there may be a way to crossover it without cheapening one or the other's significance: rather than saying Fantasy is one small, insignificant world or that a Fantasy peasant is equivallent to a 40k supersoldier... what if... magick is whack, yo?

Let me explain... maybe the reason chaos is so strong elsewhere is because they are the only gods, with orcs being the only faction capable of truly resisting them without killing their emotions and/or slowly losing ground not because they warp reality, but because they have gods. What if the existence of gods changes the metaphorical weight of things, which is more important for chaos than the real weight?

Like, if there is no other god, a daemon may be able to tear substances harder than steel like they are tissue paper and corrupt people with no oppossition... but when other players play the game of reality, the power balance chnges due to the metaphysical weight of things, with everything being rebalanced by the mere fact that there are other stakeholders of reality to create a "stronger" reality that, in turn, makes the factions that exist by tearing it at the seams (chaos and orcs) seem weaker due to their unability to attack reality, which is the real source of their strength, and which has the side benefit of making psykers stabler. The vortex helps a lot with that too, evening the ground and protecting the weaker gods

Would explain a lot, including why the chaos gods eat every other god as fast as they can, and it would make a crossover semi balanced, seeing as the gods and vortex may have universal importance to fighting chaos.
 
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Makes me curious as to how they made the sun "larger". I wonder if they set up the process to turn it into a red giant.
 
I wonder if there's a Rhya-Athel Loren connection we're missing somewhere along the line, where Deathfang is using the human name for something that the Asrai might call something else.
Makes me curious as to how they made the sun "larger". I wonder if they set up the process to turn it into a red giant.

Made it larger in the sky by moving the planet closer to it, I suspect.
 
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