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At this point I'm convinced the Old Ones were some irresponsible kids/idiots who bailed when they got Chaos attention.
To me the implication from what Deathfang said is that Chaos would come to any world as full of life as this one - but the Old Ones shielded it before filling it with life.

I still think they were refugees of the Old Ones from the 40K galaxy who built the world specifically to keep Chaos from following - and potentially to make a weapon that could hold Chaos off as the God Emperor of Man does - and left when they failed because they've faced Chaos before, and a whole galaxy worth of them lost.
 
"A close friend of mine has something of a family dispute involving worship of the Earth Mother, and whether it should be pursued as they traditionally have done, or whether they should join the Cult of Rhya. I wanted to know if you knew anything of that division."

"Would this family live in Altdorf? In a round house with a very tall wall?"

"It might."

He considers that for a while. "A man once sought to truly understand water, and followed every river he could find to its mouth. His conclusion was that the true nature of water is salty, and he died of thirst."

You consider that for a while, and nod. "Thank you."

Everyone's talking about Deathfang and I just want to know what the hell this was.
 
Blasphemy isn't outright disallowed but you should probably think twice about publishing it unless you've got solid evidence to back it up. 'A dragon told me' is not quite the pinnacle of academic rigour.
That's why you don't make the story the main topic of the paper. You make a paper on the schism in Draconic culture, as explained by two Dragons. And include the myth as supporting evidence.
 
To me the implication from what Deathfang said is that Chaos would come to any world as full of life as this one - but the Old Ones shielded it before filling it with life.

I still think they were refugees of the Old Ones from the 40K galaxy who built the world specifically to keep Chaos from following - and potentially to make a weapon that could hold Chaos off as the God Emperor of Man does - and left when they failed because they've faced Chaos before, and a whole galaxy worth of them lost.

If that were the case I think they would either arm and uplift the locals to better hold of Chaos, or else exterminatus either as a mercy kill or to remove a potential threat.

Maybe the Winds and potentially other things like Runes are experimental weapons against Chaos, to produce something incorruptible or maybe turn Chaos energies against them without horribly backfiring, but then I would expect them to hang around and observe.

...are the Old Ones maybe in the outer edges of the solar system, seeing how this experiment works out?
 
Deathfang certainly tells an interesting story. I wonder how much of it is true.
"All of it, obviously" -- Deathfang
It kind of got overshadowed by Deathfangs lorebomb, but the kittybird master had some interesting stuff to say (and the way he brushed the divine magic thing aside is sus).
Mathilde, Miss 'I'm not a priest, I just sometimes channel the power of my God to battle Khornate champions': "Joerg seems pretty sus, tbh"
 
If that were the case I think they would either arm and uplift the locals to better hold of Chaos, or else exterminatus either as a mercy kill or to remove a potential threat.

Maybe the Winds and potentially other things like Runes are experimental weapons against Chaos, to produce something incorruptible or maybe turn Chaos energies against them without horribly backfiring, but then I would expect them to hang around and observe.

...are the Old Ones maybe in the outer edges of the solar system, seeing how this experiment works out?
If they were their lizardman servants wouldn't be stuck trying to decipher what to do now from ancient plaques.

They're either all dead or they fled.
 
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We're possibly one of a very small group of humans that likely can be counted on two hands who know this story, and we can't share it!
Why can't we share it?

Further, dragons can allegedly travel between stars and survive reentry, but are also able to be killed by a bunch of peasants with crossbows. Somehow I doubt the Old Ones ever lost fights to early modern/feudal level societies.
Maybe staying on a planet without the energy they have in space or being affected by the Winds of magic weaken them?

we published this and the text was declared heretical, that would break both the first and the third Articles of Magic, maybe seventh, depending on how you look at it. Well, the seventh doesn't matter since we already broke it over the knee and burned the remains.
Why would it be heretical? It doesn't deny Sigmar nor his existence. That story happened millennia (if not millions of years) before Sigmar's birth and doesn't contradict the teachings of his Church. It would be like saying the Elven gods are heretical.
 
Still catching up, but there are some comments I want to make...

Why would he sully himself with a lie?
I don't think he'd lie, exactly. But he might be exaggerating at the end of a chain of exaggerations by other dragons. Deathfang never says "I" during the story, always "We", and Eltharin is probably even more ambiguous about whether that means dragons-including-me-specifically or dragons-as-my-ingroup. Was he there?
It's not the full truth either. It completely disregards the dwarfs, who we know had an important part in making the vortex, and I imagine Cython has some very different opinions too.

I would not at all be surprised if the whole leaving plan is more wishfull thinking and pride than reasonable course of action.

It is super cool though, and I really want to hear Cython's take on it.

In addition to all these, the whole story has a very dragon centric perspective that is, honestly, kind of sus. Notice how they minimise the Old Ones and how they quietly shove the gods under the rug "ha ha, we totally know what they are" style. Very Ulthuan dragon centric too, Cython's opinions would certainly be different.

Okay, so assuming Deathfang isn't lying or mistaken, the dragons came from space, and Star Dragons are capable of traveling through space unassisted, somehow (uuh, farting? I assume that either means space isn't vacuum, or they are capable of traveling magically. Or both. They must be capable of what we would term FTL, too, though it's not necessarily actually faster than light in Warhammer-verse.) And the dragons are basically just waiting to leave the world, that's why they are slumbering - it's not that they can't wake up, they choose to be this way, except presumably for those dragons that like specific elves very much or otherwise have specific interests.

As a sidenote, the star dragons are apparently capable of surviving the scorching heat and extreme pressure and deceleration of reentry.

And, of course, the Wind-aligned dragons have their fates of the world... you'd think they'd turn out to fight Everchosen since they are screwed if the world gets overrun by Chaos, but I guess they don't care. Assholes.

Oh btw @BoneyM the past and present perfect tenses of "lead" are both "led", relating to these two sentences:

Eh, looking at how they are shown to hibernate, are nigh unaging, and are implied by Dragonfang to be able to survive large impacts and the forces of space, nothing stops them from trvelling the slow way.
 
Dawi Politics and Us, or, Can I Offer You an Effortpost in These Trying Times?

So, I've been meaning to write up an effortpost on my ideas re: dawi politics since that's quite relevant to what I'd like Mathilde to be doing going forward. The premise is very similar to what Mathilde and her good buddy Egrimm van Horstmann (hell of a guy) were talking about a couple updates ago: what the dawi need to prosper, more than any other single thing, is hope.

To which one might ask, well, what has that got to do with us, though? As is noted in that selfsame update, Mathilde can't take every dwarf in the Karaz Ankor by their beard and shake them until they start looking at the future instead of the past. They can't be forced to hope... but they might be able to be led to. It's unlikely Mathilde could lead them like that herself, but Mathilde is an advisor, and her specialty is thus supporting the leadership of another. And Belegar is perhaps uniquely well-suited to this task. He is the first King EVER to effect a stable reclamation of an Old Hold. He is personally open to new ideas and unorthodox strategies to a remarkable extent for a dwarven king. He has, in fact, already staked out something of a political position that the future is more important than the past when he made his case that the future of K8P mattered more than crossing out old Grudges (thus starting the rift with Thorgrim, but so it goes). He has strong ties to a number of other powerful and influential Holds, ties which could potentially be strengthened and expanded with marriage.

He could absolutely do something like argue publicly for and campaign for a focus on the future of the Karaz Ankor based on the credible hope that the dawi can actually rebuild if they embrace that as a possibility that can actually be within their grasp with the right approach and attitude. An Age of Renewal rather than only an Age of Vengeance. That's a broad goal. But there's a specific goal that aligns with and complements this.

Namely, getting Thorgrim to name Belegar as the heir to the High Kingship. Given their personal relationship, that would be an uphill task, but I don't believe it to be impossible. Belegar just making a personal petition for it or something would presumably not get far, but if other Holds are backing him in this then that instantly makes it far more credible. A High King's task is to lead the Karaz Ankor as a whole after all, and a leader who already has the backing of other Holds surely has a leg up when it comes to being named heir to the position. With enough backing, it actually becomes awkward NOT to name him as heir.

Even setting aside OOC concerns like the heir getting told about the HUD on the Throne of Power since we shouldn't be making decisions based on OOC knowledge, that would be an outcome that would do a LOT to advance the potential of an Age of Renewal. Naming a King who's associated with those ideas to officially be the heir is a huge political statement, the kind of thing that will get the attention of even the most hidebound Longbeard. It's an extremely powerful tacit statement that yes, this IS the future direction of the Karaz Ankor. That's the kind of thing that can truly inspire and change minds. It can also at least be reasonably assumed IC that the heir should get to know what the hell the deal is with Karaz-a-Karak drawing in all that Waystone power, which is very much a concern of Belegar's as well.

Belegar doesn't seem to be an innately power-hungry guy by any means. He seems to be truly motivated by concern for the well-being of his people for the most part. As such I don't think he'd go after this just for the sake of a shinier hat by any means. But I genuinely do believe that he has a vision and a leadership style that the Karaz Ankor as a whole could benefit from tremendously. And THAT seems like something worth fighting for, and hopefully he'd think so too.

Belegar taking this as a conscious goal would be relevant to us in a few ways. Per Boney, one of the possible directions for Mathilde if she stays on the council of K8P is that she can pivot to weird shit troubleshooter for the Karaz Ankor at large. That on its own is still less interesting to me than a more focused project like the Waystones, so if it was just that I'd still be in favor of just focusing on the Waystones project with the Eonir instead. But if Belegar is assigning us to troubleshooting jobs strategically to build bridges for K8P and/or use our skills to demonstrate to other Kings in person how valuable embracing new ideas and allies can be, it becomes a role with more direction and one that's contributing to a larger project I care about a lot (namely, the future of the Karaz Ankor). At that point I'd be MUCH more interested in staying in that role as at-large troubleshooter for the Karaz Ankor on Belegar's behalf, and maybe relegating Waystones to personal actions when we can spare the attention or something. It would also be a strong additional impetus for us to boost our Diplomacy, though I'd like to do that anyway. Even if we're not the one playing the role of the actual Diplomat from the Diplo Advisor role, Diplomacy would still be HIGHLY relevant to working with other Kings and being the initial icebreaker/bridge-builder, to effectively pave the way for more formalized diplomatic efforts to follow from another, and to make the case that yes the possible risks from accepting new ideas and allies is worth it.

As such, I'd very much like it if one of the first things we did back in K8P was to discuss this idea with Belegar and find out what his take on it actually is. If he's just not feeling it even with our encouragement, then so be it, I wouldn't try to force this role on him if he doesn't want it, so we can do the Waystones project or something instead in that case as far as I'm concerned. But if he's interested in trying, then "support Belegar's push to be named heir to the High Kingship as his Weird Shit Troubleshooting Ambassador" is a direction I'd be VERY interested in.
 
Still catching up, but a point I would like to make:
Also, one of the strangest parts of this for Mathilde? The constant references to "machines" being used to control the world and control magic. Not creations of magic, but machines with the same meaning in Eltharin you would give to the steam wagons.

Well... that's certainly given Mathilde a lot to think about.
Mathilde's staff is a machine. Her belt and sword are machines. The mirror-box she trapped her snake in is a machine.
Arguable even the stabilised energy matrix shaped like a seed embedded in her hand is a machine.

The whole 'magic =/= technology' nomenclatural divide is something that would never occur to someone in a setting with actual magic.
 
Giant Crabs were smart enough to not pick a fight with dragons, that makes them the smartest thing on Ice World Mallus.
BoneyM said:
Twenty thousand years ago, though the length of a year was different then,
Is kind of an amazingly understated line to start a tale with. 'So long ago the world was different then' with an undertone of 'As everyone knows,' is something we only ever get with Dragon and Dwarf storytime.

Mathilde: "And the Empire can't even keep our libraries unburned for more than 20 years, cripes"
I have a hard time believing that Deathfang just told Mathilde something that the Elves don't know.
Certainly nothing they would ever admit they didn't know.
 
Dawi Politics and Us, or, Can I Offer You an Effortpost in These Trying Times?

So, I've been meaning to write up an effortpost on my ideas re: dawi politics since that's quite relevant to what I'd like Mathilde to be doing going forward. The premise is very similar to what Mathilde and her good buddy Egrimm van Horstmann (hell of a guy) were talking about a couple updates ago: what the dawi need to prosper, more than any other single thing, is hope.

To which one might ask, well, what has that got to do with us, though? As is noted in that selfsame update, Mathilde can't take every dwarf in the Karaz Ankor by their beard and shake them until they start looking at the future instead of the past. They can't be forced to hope... but they might be able to be led to. It's unlikely Mathilde could lead them like that herself, but Mathilde is an advisor, and her specialty is thus supporting the leadership of another. And Belegar is perhaps uniquely well-suited to this task. He is the first King EVER to effect a stable reclamation of an Old Hold. He is personally open to new ideas and unorthodox strategies to a remarkable extent for a dwarven king. He has, in fact, already staked out something of a political position that the future is more important than the past when he made his case that the future of K8P mattered more than crossing out old Grudges (thus starting the rift with Thorgrim, but so it goes). He has strong ties to a number of other powerful and influential Holds, ties which could potentially be strengthened and expanded with marriage.

He could absolutely do something like argue publicly for and campaign for a focus on the future of the Karaz Ankor based on the credible hope that the dawi can actually rebuild if they embrace that as a possibility that can actually be within their grasp with the right approach and attitude. An Age of Renewal rather than only an Age of Vengeance. That's a broad goal. But there's a specific goal that aligns with and complements this.

Namely, getting Thorgrim to name Belegar as the heir to the High Kingship. Given their personal relationship, that would be an uphill task, but I don't believe it to be impossible. Belegar just making a personal petition for it or something would presumably not get far, but if other Holds are backing him in this then that instantly makes it far more credible. A High King's task is to lead the Karaz Ankor as a whole after all, and a leader who already has the backing of other Holds surely has a leg up when it comes to being named heir to the position. With enough backing, it actually becomes awkward NOT to name him as heir.

Even setting aside OOC concerns like the heir getting told about the HUD on the Throne of Power since we shouldn't be making decisions based on OOC knowledge, that would be an outcome that would do a LOT to advance the potential of an Age of Renewal. Naming a King who's associated with those ideas to officially be the heir is a huge political statement, the kind of thing that will get the attention of even the most hidebound Longbeard. It's an extremely powerful tacit statement that yes, this IS the future direction of the Karaz Ankor. That's the kind of thing that can truly inspire and change minds. It can also at least be reasonably assumed IC that the heir should get to know what the hell the deal is with Karaz-a-Karak drawing in all that Waystone power, which is very much a concern of Belegar's as well.

Belegar doesn't seem to be an innately power-hungry guy by any means. He seems to be truly motivated by concern for the well-being of his people for the most part. As such I don't think he'd go after this just for the sake of a shinier hat by any means. But I genuinely do believe that he has a vision and a leadership style that the Karaz Ankor as a whole could benefit from tremendously. And THAT seems like something worth fighting for, and hopefully he'd think so too.

Belegar taking this as a conscious goal would be relevant to us in a few ways. Per Boney, one of the possible directions for Mathilde if she stays on the council of K8P is that she can pivot to weird shit troubleshooter for the Karaz Ankor at large. That on its own is still less interesting to me than a more focused project like the Waystones, so if it was just that I'd still be in favor of just focusing on the Waystones project with the Eonir instead. But if Belegar is assigning us to troubleshooting jobs strategically to build bridges for K8P and/or use our skills to demonstrate to other Kings in person how valuable embracing new ideas and allies can be, it becomes a role with more direction and one that's contributing to a larger project I care about a lot (namely, the future of the Karaz Ankor). At that point I'd be MUCH more interested in staying in that role as at-large troubleshooter for the Karaz Ankor on Belegar's behalf, and maybe relegating Waystones to personal actions when we can spare the attention or something. It would also be a strong additional impetus for us to boost our Diplomacy, though I'd like to do that anyway. Even if we're not the one playing the role of the actual Diplomat from the Diplo Advisor role, Diplomacy would still be HIGHLY relevant to working with other Kings and being the initial icebreaker/bridge-builder, to effectively pave the way for more formalized diplomatic efforts to follow from another, and to make the case that yes the possible risks from accepting new ideas and allies is worth it.

As such, I'd very much like it if one of the first things we did back in K8P was to discuss this idea with Belegar and find out what his take on it actually is. If he's just not feeling it even with our encouragement, then so be it, I wouldn't try to force this role on him if he doesn't want it, so we can do the Waystones project or something instead in that case as far as I'm concerned. But if he's interested in trying, then "support Belegar's push to be named heir to the High Kingship as his Weird Shit Troubleshooting Ambassador" is a direction I'd be VERY interested in.
I feel like this whole argument requires us to talk about stuff that's above our station.

it's one thing for King Belegar coming to his advisers about changing the dwarf empire and making a play for the throne of power.

its another thing for an advisor to go to the king and whisper this type of stuff in his ear.
 
If that were the case I think they would either arm and uplift the locals to better hold of Chaos, or else exterminatus either as a mercy kill or to remove a potential threat.

Maybe the Winds and potentially other things like Runes are experimental weapons against Chaos, to produce something incorruptible or maybe turn Chaos energies against them without horribly backfiring, but then I would expect them to hang around and observe.

...are the Old Ones maybe in the outer edges of the solar system, seeing how this experiment works out?
The Old Ones aren't really known for cleaning up their messes on the way out. Whether or not they should do something is rather distinct from whether they'll put the effort in.

Uplifting the locals would be a terrible idea: The Ruinous Powers don't have guns and spaceships here. But if the locals did, they would - because the vast majority of their presence is through the minds of locals.

It's possible that they've left to set up some other experiment and are planning to come back and see how this pans out - having noticed before they left that Ulric et. al. were holding out reasonably well against Chaos, but not being willing to stick around for the fight.
 
Some of the cities probably still exist today. My best guesses:
Qt = the Ancient City of Quintex, on Naggaroth (introduced in TW:Warhammer 2)
Iz = Itza, the First City, on Lustria
Cd = ???, Ulthuan or Old World
Zl = Zlatlan, in the Southlands
Cl = ???, Ulthuan or Old World

That would mean that Elves were created/evolved in Naggaroth since this "It was Qt that created beings worthy to guard our nests and grow our food. That is almost enough to forgive them for their ultimate failure." is probably about them.

Wait a second... did he just tell us that the Sword of Khaine used a dragon's life force to power it?!

It is a known legend. It goes something like this:
1) Vaul is making a sword, but needs a power of dragon's breath
2) Draugnir provides the power, but it takes more from him than expected and he dies soon thereafter

To me the implication from what Deathfang said is that Chaos would come to any world as full of life as this one - but the Old Ones shielded it before filling it with life.

I still think they were refugees of the Old Ones from the 40K galaxy who built the world specifically to keep Chaos from following - and potentially to make a weapon that could hold Chaos off as the God Emperor of Man does - and left when they failed because they've faced Chaos before, and a whole galaxy worth of them lost.
But Old Ones didn't lose to Chaos, they lost to C'tans and Necrons and their war led to the creation of Chaos (Warp was much less turbulent before it).
 
Learning:

Trait: Draconic Lore: Enough to make you wish you know less.
Lorehound: You have an uncanny ability to sniff out plot hooks and lore dumps. +2 Learning, increased ability to gain Lore dumps during Social actions.

Less pithy, but more accurate.
Further, dragons can allegedly travel between stars and survive reentry, but are also able to be killed by a bunch of peasants with crossbows. Somehow I doubt the Old Ones ever lost fights to early modern/feudal level societies.
Xholankha, the Lost: "... In my defense, sometimes you just roll a 1, okay"
 
Still catching up, but there are some comments I want to make...





In addition to all these, the whole story has a very dragon centric perspective that is, honestly, kind of sus. Notice how they minimise the Old Ones and how they quietly shove the gods under the rug "ha ha, we totally know what they are" style. Very Ulthuan dragon centric too, Cython's opinions would certainly be different.



Eh, looking at how they are shown to hibernate, are nigh unaging, and are implied by Dragonfang to be able to survive large impacts and the forces of space, nothing stops them from trvelling the slow way.

That is not proof of willful lying, just that the story dragons tell their children is dragon-centric which is to be expected really. Willful lying implies intent to deceive.
 
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